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I remember years ago I saw a TV movie about the Watergate scandal. There was a part where G. Gordon Liddy was played by Robert Conrad ("Go ahead! Knock it off! I dare ya!"). He was in a restaurant or at a dinner party or some such. I can't remember how the conversation evolved but Robert Conrad took a burning candle and held one hand over it. He kept that hand there while the flame burned his skin and charred his flesh. All the while, he never blinked, flinched, moved a muscle.

After a while, he moved the candle away. Someone asked "What's the trick?". He replied "the trick is not minding".

Then again he WAS a psychopath.

I don't know about Liddy...maybe he was a psychopath too.

Anyway...Liddy is my role-model.

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I think the fantasy of a remorseful WS running to you with tears, humilty, etc is a concrete way, a measurable goal if you will of putting this all behind you. Dont blame you for wanting that.

With that said...Be careful of becoming Jaded. It sounds like you are.

Dara

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I think it's common for people 2 mistake this atti2de for jadedness. And that's understandable, in the scheme of the typical affair and recovery process duration.

I've been at this for 5 1/2 years since d-day, and I think I know exactly what pio is referring 2 here. I would rather never get an apology, or even a promise of NC, than get those things from a WW who may be just going through the motions 2 appease me.

When you do this for long enough, you do get 2 a point where you can see the evidence for progress, or no. My W still talks about her desire 2 have close male friends (really, Rat Meat) outside of our M and none of my business. She talks about these things when she's stressed or really angry at me. So, it comes out. And then I know where she's "at." But she'd also like us 2 be close, and whether she's willing 2 admit it or not - married.

So, I watch and I wait, and I keep focusing on my own recovery. And so I think I understand what pio is doing/saying. Like the time apart comment. My W will be gone for about 3 weeks in June, then I'll be gone for 3 weeks in August. I'll be meeting her at the end of her trip in June, but I'll be by myself on my August trip, and I'm really looking forward 2 that.

-ol' 2long

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“The cornerstone of this building is the sure and certain knowledge that gemela is on zero tolerance. One more PA/EA offense and we part. That is the only way I can respect myself.”

I hope Gemela knows this. Make sure of it, in fact. Put it in writing and both of you sign it. Post-affair nuptial legal agreement kind of thing. Shines a little bit of light in the room.

Gemela sounds young, silly and self absorbed. I don’t think she understand or appreciates irony and sarcasm, sardonic or satirical. If she thinks she got away with adultery, or almost got away with it, she will definitely do it again.


“I do think that Gemela knows her A was wrong and regrets it. I don't think she will ever admit it to you.”

Well, I don’t know, Believer. Intellectually she may know, maybe. But she sounds mucho compartmented. I have my suspicions she has not processed the moral and ethical considerations of her adultery yet. She might, someday. But it will take a stimulus, perhaps stimuli. Take her (RC, right?) to Reconciliation, Pio. To a hard-nosed traditional confessor. Not of these lovey-dovey we are all sinners kind of guys. Both of you talk to him, and then she confesses. You too, preferably.


Pio, you say you like yourself now, and I believe you. But there is a huge load of residual indignation here. There is for me, too, but let’s not talk about me. (Talking about me is more interesting but talking about you is more fun.) You have made some progress intellectually processing the ego and self esteem hits. But there is a huge amount of emotional dust still settling. This crap takes years to sort out even with a truly remorseful FWW.

Find your long term pace, place and peace. Marathon talk, sorry. Start improving your life. Go out of your way to be nice to everyone. Be someone you are proud of. Accomplish cool things in your career. Be super dad. Get a PhD. Become an organ donor. Open doors for people. Pray.

I speak of loving detachment (= meeting ENs = love is a verb). Act loving towards everyone, including unremorseful FWW. Takes a while to get good at it. Takes practice. But it’s worth it.

I am amazed at how much better I started to feel once I put a larger chunk of my focus on me and on everyone around me. Not interested in others' focus on me. Not even FWW's focus on me. Just my own.


With prayers,

ed: Because I could.

Last edited by Aphelion; 05/08/07 01:29 PM.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Pio,

I think I was a lot like you I wanted to SEE remorse from my FWW. But we are two different people with two different ways of doing things.

My FWW has appologized for her A. Half heartedly to be honest. Radical honesty was like pulling teeth. She justified her behavior 7 ways to sunday.

But in the midst of all of that if I would have looked below the surface I would have seen my FWW's idea of remorse. She in some cases did and it wasn't what I wanted to see so I didn't see it as remorse.

Now today I see the remorse but not in a sullen way. Her remorse is a tool or a guide for not what to do in the future.

For instance my FWW used to spend a lot of money on herself. She was very selfish like that.

Now she is remorseful for spending it and she uses that as a reminder to not do it again. I don't see her sulking or appologizing all the time for the past event.

I see her remorse in not doing it.

The other thing I have personally noticed more now the further I get into recovery is her appreciation of me.

Especially now the appreciation that we are still married. There have been some instances lately where people around us are getting D'd because of infidelity.

She now sees that not everyone is willing to work toward recovery.

So I don't see remorse in an appologetic way. I see remorse guiding her actions today so she doesn't have to be remorseful for her actions today.

Look below the surface you may see her idea of what remorse is and you may like it.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Hey FNM, on another thread, Chapman's five love languages came up, he also talks about five apology languages.

http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/30sec.html

FNM, congratulations on your success in building your new marriage together with your wife. She was a "tough nut" and you really came through, there's a lot to admire in that.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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I married him all over again, May 07
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FNM, congratulations on your success in building your new marriage together with your wife. She was a "tough nut" and you really came through, there's a lot to admire in that.

Thank you Mates. I see you have a good mothers day coming up.

I think for me when I stopped looking for remorse and started looking for the actions. The actions being ones that show you given the opportunity to go back in the past would my FWW not have an A again.

I think today if I put my FWW in the same position she wouldn't .

That is what I need to know.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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frog:

Good description of the process, I think.

-ol' 2long

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LOL @ Aph <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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(Talking about me is more interesting but talking about you is more fun.)

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Become an organ donor.


I've already been type-matched for people needing heart transplants. I hope to get the call any day.

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I don't think I am jaded at all. I do think 2long understands what I am getting at. In some respects he has a better deal than I have because his (F)WW is more of a known entity. Mine is not so easily categorized. I have heard some comments from her recently during fights that remind me vividly of WW right after Dday. She is holding a lot in. Like the iceberg where most can't be seen.

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Pio,

I have no words re: remorse but happened to have a horrible day and decided to check out MB since I have not signed on for months and noted your reappearance.

Wanted to thank you for all of your support since you disappearred so quickly from TKO way back when.

I am about to relocate in 4wks as single mom. D will be final in June and WH has settled down with one of his many OW's. Brings OW on his kid time adventures once a week and I've even had to suck it up and accept she is a part of his and my children's lives. Hopefully the move with me and the kiddo's will be the fresh start we all need. WH is remaining here and will be close to 1000 miles away after we relocate.

I am optimistic that the past year has been a reality check for me and the Good Lord is giving me an opportunity to start a clean slate and new life which is a pretty good deal considering what my children and I have been through this past 24 months.

Don't know what to say about your sitch...you are a patient man and only you know what you can live with and what your limits/needs/boundaries are...a year is really not that long in the great scheme of things considering it took probably at least as much time to unravel the M...keep your sense of humor and stubborness and aim it at M success...you are what you think!

Good Luck,
2mhb

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You are a smart guy so I suppose you've read the IRS code regardibg your tax liability while living overseas. I don't think you can get out of paying the IRS unless you renounce your US citizenship...doesn't matter where you live or for how long....I don't think you are required to pay tax in both places though.

There's a ton of info about income tax and expats online...attorney's who specialize in those services etc.

Good luck with all that.

I sure do wish we'd go to the fair tax (a consumption tax) and get rid of the IRS and the giant tax code for good...hate it. There wouldn't be any loopholes, like for illegal aliens and those in the underground economy...I think we'd be freer and less of multiple taxations.

In my situation we weren't really in recovery until real remorse and total awareness of all he had done was clear to my H and he GOT IT. It sure doesn't seem like your wife gets it and I agree that because of that your marriage is vulnerable for her to have another affair on down the road.


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But I HAVE been paying my income taxes. What they are trying to ding me for is that, since they have decided I don't live overseas, they are disallowing my foreign earned income exclusion. Since they won't give me the exclusion, it then becomes taxable income and, since I didn't pay income on the excluded amount, I owe interest and penalties as well.

The IRS has done this to over a dozen of my co-workers. It is a form letter they send out.

I satisfied the bona fide non-residency test over 10 years ago. Now I can be in the USA each year up to 180 days and still qualify for the FEIE. I wasn't. I was only there NINE DAYS. ARE YOU LISTENING CONRAD GONZALES??? They are just...what is the technical term?...oh, yes...IDIOTS!.

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2much,

It is great to hear from you. I'm glad you transfer is finally going to happen. Just keep that Glock on safe until you are nicely unpacked in your new house.

Yes a year is not that long looking back. When you are living it, it just seems longer. But it really isn't. I was thinking back on some of my worse moments. Just being able to function again is a blessing.

WW may well have another A. That will always be her choice. I know what I will do if she does. I can't dwell on that though. Right now I am just taking each day as it comes. I worry about me. And making me better a little more each day.

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FNM,

I believe this is the evolution I have come to - stop looking for what I consider remorse. I'm not ready to look below the surface yet. I just take things at face value without prejudice. I am not, at the moment, interested in analyzing WW's actions and trying to arbitrarily assign motive to them without any guidance from her.

I think I just need a vacation from infidelity. Having to work two years without a vacation is illegal in many countries.

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Pio,

Then don't analyze her actions. Just live and breath today.

With her in an infidelity free day. Build on each day.

I found the nicer I was to my FWW the more remorseful she seemed.

I think some of the justifications wore off in a sense. She sees how great I am and I am sure the thought runs through her mind she almost lost me.

She shows me apprecaiton for what I do now.

But I think it stems from me treating her well.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Well I think maybe I will take that vacation from infidelity then. I was about to pack and then, at the last minute, decided to try to not take any baggage with me.

FWIW, this has been revelational to me. Fundamental problems I still see are communications and boundaries. I vaguely remember getting into arguments with ToddAC about how invariant he was in his boundary conditions and yet I fell into the same trap. I think, in some cases, that on the path to recovery you need to occasionally move the fence posts.

I also have posted this a very long time ago and I still believe it. MB, SAA, HNHN offer excellent advice on what to do in the initial crisis. They offer an excellent plan to stop the divorce. MB also offers great advice on how to significantly improve the M after recovery is achieved. But there is a huge grey area in between those two milestones that nobody really talks about. I hope this thread has been helpful to someone. I know it was to me.

Oops! There's my boarding announcement. Gotta run.

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And yet I saw and still see HNHN and LB as a roadmap for recovery....


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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GET YOUR KOOL AID HER FOLKS. KOOL AID. ONLY ONE FLAVOR. GET YOUR KOOL AID HERE.

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