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DIG #1869328 05/07/07 10:47 AM
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Todd:

Ok, I got it.

Quote
I am very sensitive to the blame-shifting. Cruise was not "seduced" and "gave in to her weakness" - she CHOSE what she did. At first, I felt it was my fault for Cruise's actions. I also blamed the scumbag OM. When I realized that Cruise made dozens of concious decisions to have an A with full forethought, that hit me hard. Now I do not stand for any mention of "caved in to weakness" or "was seduced by an expert seducer." These are just another way of minimizing the CHOICE that Cruise made. It is one of the reasons I have in the past found your posts so frustrating. Here is the bottom line: Cruise vowed to forsake all others and conciously chose to break that vow.

Harley's teachings: Please go read them. You will be in a better place for it. You have selected the CHOICE button, but there is also the one that says affairs are because people FAIL to protect their WEAKNESSES.

Both statements are correct according to what Harley teaches.

Yes, people have a CHOICE. People also FAIL to protect their weaknesses which leads to the choice if they have help and opportunity. Both statements are accurate. You also have a CHOICE. You can forgive the weakness and rebond with your wife or CHOOSE to not so do. This is also what Harley teaches.

For the first time, I see your focus. Do you see mine? For various reasons, I am going to go away for a while. Please think about your choices, your own weaknesses and how people make mistakes and grow out of them. My suggestion is that you study Harley a bit more and I wish both you and cruise all the best.

Did cruise set about hurting you, was that her CHOICE, or was it all about her at that moment in time and moment in emotional maturiy she lacked THEN? Harley teaches us that affairs are NOT about the spouse. They are all about the ones who made a CHOICE to fail to protect their weaknesses, which we ALL have.

Again, I wish you well. I may be back in a week or two.

Larry

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Hi, Mates.

Quote:
==============================================
If I were the wife in this situation, I would waltz my gorgeous self to the divorce lawyer without warning.

My message to him after that would be: You choose not to get over that so we can live a happy drama-free life together, so, try getting over losing me forever instead.

And I would wipe him completely out of my life. Pitch Black Darkness.
==============================================

That's an interesting piece of entitlement, especially considering that if you were her, you would be just as much an infidel as he, and a liar, just like him.

How would you justify your position? "Accept my lies and infidelity or I'm leaving." "We both cheated and since you did it more than me, either get over it or I am leaving." "My infidelity wasn't as bad as yours."

That certainly doesn't sound very appealing to me.

Just a rhetorical question. My goal is to find a fix, not crucify anyone.

Gimble


-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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todd1967: Any negative emotion Cruise receives from me regarding this issue is the direct result of the A and the lie. This is not "punishment" (which implies directed action to inflict pain), it it a natural "consequence" (which arises naturally from the circumstance, without action needed).

That's a bit of a cop-out because you are refusing to take any responsibility for your own emotions and how you choose to express them. Although it is natural for us to feel certain emotions in response to certain actions by others, our perspective and thoughtful insights (or lack thereof) can greatly affect how soon and how well we can recover from that. So if you never recover from something, it's because you CHOOSE to never recover from it. That doesn't mean you can choose never to feel pain, of course, but putting your pain in perspective can make a big difference.

Furthermore, if you express your pain or negative emotions in a way that threatens your marriage, that's on you. That's because of how YOU CHOOSE to deal with your pain, not because of the A itself. Those "natural" consequences are not natural, they are man-made. You alone decide what those consequences will be.

So basically you just need to decide...do you want to stay married or don't you? If you do, then you need to choose to handle your recovery in a way that doesn't threaten your marriage. And again, Feeling Good: the New Mood Therapy by David Burns is good for helping people learn to put bad experiences into perspective.

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Hi, todd.

If you wish to discuss this privately, one of my email addresses is in my profile. Feel free to contact me.

I would very much like to talk to your wife as well if she is willing.

God bless,
Gimble


-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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Aphrodite.

Quote:
==============================================
Furthermore, if you express your pain or negative emotions in a way that threatens your marriage, that's on you. That's because of how YOU CHOOSE to deal with your pain, not because of the A itself. Those "natural" consequences are not natural, they are man-made. You alone decide what those consequences will be.
==============================================

If you want to see how well someone who is devastated deals with their pain, then come clean with your husband. Go do that and then tell me how good your advice above is.

Gimble


-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
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I fully expect that if I refused to choose to recover from my husband's affair than the only recourse that would be appropriate for him, would be to eliminate me from his life.

Quite the motivator for me to choose recovery, there eh?

I'm happy, I'm recovered, we are happy, our marriage is recovered, and in three days will be in paradise renewing our vows. I stand by every word I say. I mean exactly what I said. When the fws has the guts to choose to remain in a marriage which is now power-skewed toward the bs, that shows they have motivation and courage, because I guarantee it would be easier to find a clean slate out there. Gotta run so this may not be clear don't have time to clarify.


Quote
Hi, Mates.

Quote:
==============================================
If I were the wife in this situation, I would waltz my gorgeous self to the divorce lawyer without warning.

My message to him after that would be: You choose not to get over that so we can live a happy drama-free life together, so, try getting over losing me forever instead.

And I would wipe him completely out of my life. Pitch Black Darkness.
==============================================

That's an interesting piece of entitlement, especially considering that if you were her, you would be just as much an infidel as he, and a liar, just like him.

How would you justify your position? "Accept my lies and infidelity or I'm leaving." "We both cheated and since you did it more than me, either get over it or I am leaving." "My infidelity wasn't as bad as yours."

That certainly doesn't sound very appealing to me.

Just a rhetorical question. My goal is to find a fix, not crucify anyone.

Gimble


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

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>If you want to see how well someone who is devastated deals with their pain, then come clean with your husband. Go do that and then tell me how good your advice above is.

>Gimble

1- If people who are grieving the loss of a loved one to DEATH can take this advice, then certainly those in pain over adultery can. If you really love your wife, you'd prefer being cheated on over your wife having a fatal embolism. Ask any widower.There have in fact been people whose bereavement turns into clinical depression and by using cognitive-behavioral therapy or REBT they turn clinical depression back into ordinary bereavement. So it CAN be done.

2- By your logic, any behavior that results from the pain of adultery is justified. Suppose he decides he's in such pain he needs to kill his wife? Or how about if killing his wife isn't enough and he walks into a random office building and kills a bunch of strangers? After all, he's hurt so he has no responsibility for how he deals with his pain, right?

And just to give you all some perspective on your pain...I know a family with five kids from Uganda who fled to Kenya because they were afraid the Lord's Resistance Army would kidnap the kids and force the boys to kill people and force the girls into sex slavery. That's what the LRA does (google it). On the way, the mother died of dysentary. So you see, some people DO have it much worse than you people do and they don't use their pain to skirt responsibility for their own actions.

The simple fact is, if he keeps doing things to threaten his marriage she'll eventually leave him. Even if she doesn't divorce him, she'll leave him emotionally. If that's what he wants, then by all means, have him keep doing what he's doing.

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Aphrodite:

I think you altogether missed Gimble's point.

Let me ask another question based on this portion of your post directed to me:
Quote
Furthermore, if you express your pain or negative emotions in a way that threatens your marriage, that's on you. That's because of how YOU CHOOSE to deal with your pain, not because of the A itself. Those "natural" consequences are not natural, they are man-made. You alone decide what those consequences will be.

1. WS has affair
2. Pain in BS follows on discovery of affair
3. BS pain threatens marriage
4. Marriage fails

Who is to blame for the failure of the marriage? From the quote, I read "BS is responsible because their poor choice in how they dealt with the pain destroyed the marriage."

I think this argument defeats itself. You argue that the way in which the BS expresses the pain is a man-made consequence. At the same time you describe this a "threatening" the marriage while contrasting that to the affair itself. The term you used was "that's on you." Therefore, you argue that the marriage is threatened as a result of the method of expressing pain, but also argue that it is not threatened by the affair itself.

Your argument is (as made clear by the "that's on you" comment):
CAUSE Affair <> EFFECT Threatened Marriage
CAUSE BS Pain = EFFECT Threatened Marriage

Why are these different in your eyes?

Todd


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Quote
1. WS has affair
2. Pain in BS follows on discovery of affair
3. BS pain threatens marriage
4. Marriage fails

Who is to blame for the failure of the marriage?

Only an ACTIVE AFFAIR is threatening to a marriage.
The BS is responsible in this scenario.

You can't have it both ways, Todd. If you can't recover, the marriage ends. As Aphrodite correctly pointed out, either factually, or emotionally. Staying in a marriage which is emotionally dead is as painful and damaging as the affair, ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotional abusive. It is sick.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
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Only an ACTIVE AFFAIR is threatening to a marriage.
The BS is responsible in this scenario.

That is just plain wrong. The A has created a threat to the M - it does not matter when the A took place. That threat lasts a lifetime. How many "fully-recovered" BS here feel the need to check the WS's e-mail once in a while? Why? Because they are exercising additional protection. Why do they need additional protection? Because of the threat to their M created by the A.

Quote
You can't have it both ways, Todd. If you can't recover, the marriage ends. As Aphrodite correctly pointed out, either factually, or emotionally. Staying in a marriage which is emotionally dead is as painful and damaging as the affair, ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotional abusive. It is sick.

First, I will presume that the word you in the line "if you can't recover" refers to both spouses. Otherwise, you are simply arguing that the entire burden of recovery is on the BS (and this would sound suspiciously like "get over it already").

Agreed that the M must end if recovery does not happen. That is not really in debate, is it? Who then judges exactly when recovery is no longer possible? I submit it is the BS and WS, not a third-party observer.

Also, why do you blame the BS in your quote for emotional abuse? You have assumed that because recovery has not happened, a M must be emotionally dead. You further assumed that if it is emotionally dead, then the BS is punishing the WS and exacting revenge - you refer to this as emotional abuse. How exactly are these leaps in logic made? You may believe this to be true in my case, but it certainly is not a universal truth. Then I refer you again to my question: "Who then judges exactly when recovery is no longer possible?".

Here is your argument:
1. WS has A
2. BS discovers A
3. BS is devastated
4. Recovery timeline reaches "enough" time according to third party (you in this case)
5. BS is not yet recovered, yet stays married
6. BS non-recovery is emotional abuse of WS, a form of punishment, and is "sick"
7. That bass-turd BS

Why not this?:
1. WS has A
2. BS discovers A
3. BS is devastated
4. Recovery continues in stops and starts, taking longer than anyone hoped (certainly longer than the third-party observer believes is needed)
5. BS dismisses thoughts of D when they come in an effort to give every chance for recovery
6. Difficult recovery is painful for both BS and WS
7. What will the outcome be?

Todd

edited to add:
Mates -- I just realized you are the old 10Swords. Haven't we already had these arguments? I'm not sure either will convince the other given we still hold opposite positions. We'll see, I guess.

Last edited by todd1967; 05/08/07 06:37 AM.

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My timeline is subjective, Todd, and I would simply require demonstrable improvements that both spouses can see. I'm not dictating timelines, but when is enough enough?

I will say that I have much more respect for someone who has the sanity and backbone to dig out of their malaise after devastation, instead curling up into a halpless puddle. Pain may be subjective, I concede that fine, but at some point it looks and feels like milking the situation. I went through a horrendous infidelity situation and I even asked myself many times if I was "milking my pain for my own gain" -- it's a fair question.

To be completely honest, I prefer not to deal with you, I find your resistance and martyrdom excruciatingly exhausting. I posted on this thread for the benefit of gimble and others, because I recognize that with you it's a no-win situation. Life is too short to waste my energy on useless crusades. I applied this very principle to my own marriage and recovery. There is a time to bail, for both the bs and the fws, simply for self-preservation.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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Quote
My timeline is subjective, Todd, and I would simply require demonstrable improvements that both spouses can see. I'm not dictating timelines, but when is enough enough?
When one or both of the spouses directly involved decide it is, not before. And certainly not according to the timeline of an outside observer.

Quote
I will say that I have much more respect for someone who has the sanity and backbone to dig out of their malaise after devastation, instead curling up into a halpless puddle. Pain may be subjective, I concede that fine, but at some point it looks and feels like milking the situation. I went through a horrendous infidelity situation and I even asked myself many times if I was "milking my pain for my own gain" -- it's a fair question.
Agreed it is a fair question. In fact, I ask myself this question on a regular basis. The answer is always the same - no. If that answer changes, then I will know "enough" has been reached.

Quote
To be completely honest, I prefer not to deal with you, I find your resistance and martyrdom excruciatingly exhausting. I posted on this thread for the benefit of gimble and others, because I recognize that with you it's a no-win situation. Life is too short to waste my energy on useless crusades. I applied this very principle to my own marriage and recovery. There is a time to bail, for both the bs and the fws, simply for self-preservation.
Feel free not to deal with me or any others whose point of view you find different from your own. Blocking me is easy. What you label as resistance and martyrdom I call holding firm to what I believe, even when it is not a popular view. I too posted this with an eye toward Gimble and others here in hopes that they can see where I am 3 years out and understand better that each situation has unique elements and each recovery does not follow a cookie-cutter mold. Perhaps then this information can be used to the benefit of the ones they are trying to help or to themselves.

Todd


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I don;t post often any more....but this thread caught my eye....

Even the title ..."Getting over it" is painful for me....that phrase is a trigger for me...

I found out about my W's PA during our reconciliation FROM DIVORCE!! My D-day was POST divorce....and my experience is well documented on these boards. I will never "get over it".....I have learned how to deal with it though....

How one handles it and how they move forward is their own choice. This place helped me feel normal about my pain. It helped me establish my boundaries and retain them to this day.

This is a thought provoking topic. I find some humor in a WS finding out they were also a BS but it doesn't discount their pain.

Best of luck to all of you.....


Me BS - 44
FWW- 42
EA for 4 years with fellow employee
became PA in Jan 04 - I knew of this one.
Seperated/ Divorced July 03
2 sons 14 & 12
D Day -6/26/04- PA in 1998 for about 1 year- I had NO idea.
recovery and reconciliation began 6/27/04

Remarried 2/18/06

My story?? Click below.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=129980&Number=1575914
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Mates wrote: "...ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotional abusive. It is sick"

You are assuming.

Try again.

Gimble


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Ok I'll re-word my thoughts for your edification, and I'll correct the misquote:


CHOOSING to stay in a marriage which is emotionally dead is as painful and damaging as the affair, ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotionally abusive. It is sick for both individuals to participate in such a relationship.


I'm not saying on the operating table or in intensive care, I'm talking the marriage is emotionally dead. That is not a marriage, that might be a business arrangement. It is sick.

Even a marriage of convenience is normally based on friendship, thereby not dead. The four prerequisites of CARE, PROTECTION, HONESTY, and TIME are operative in a mutually satisfying way.

Recovering marriages don't always have the prerequisites operating optimally, but the understanding is that is a goal they are working toward with measurable results.


Now, Gimble, I don't know what you think I'm assuming, but both Todd and Cruise have told me that Todd chooses not to meet Cruise's ENs. Meeting ENs is the "demonstration" part of the four necessities to building lasting love.

Todd's pain does not prevent him from doing this, he CHOOSES not to do this. In your friend's case, since he has no physical ailment that stops him from wanting his wife, he would be wise to get a counselor to help him figure out how to make better choices, he needs to work on cognitive and behavioral approaches to changing, if he's actually motivated to do that, but the real question is, WHAT'S HIS PAYOFF for not choosing to change?

applicable to everyone..


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
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~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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Mates.

I disagree with you that staying in a marriage that is otherwise not fulfilling (such as when a spouse is wayward) is not abuse, otherwise we could dismiss all the betrayed spouses on this site.

I also disagree that Todd is exacting revenge, or that my friend is. My friend is doing his level best to solve his quandary. I would imagine that Todd would love nothing more than to be "normal" again.

You are assigning motives to people that may or in this case, may NOT be accurate.

You are making a hard and fast rule from a situational construct that you just don't happen to like.

Quote:"Even a marriage of convenience is normally based on friendship, thereby not dead. The four prerequisites of CARE, PROTECTION, HONESTY, and TIME are operative in a mutually satisfying way."

So, you are claiming that Todd doesn't care for his wife, is not her friend, does not protect her and is not honest with her. How do you know these things?

Quote:"Now, Gimble, I don't know what you think I'm assuming, but both Todd and Cruise have told me that Todd chooses not to meet Cruise's ENs. Meeting ENs is the "demonstration" part of the four necessities to building lasting love."

Is Todd choosing, or is Todd unable because of how he feels? "Just get over it" is not a solution.

Quote:" In your friend's case, since he has no physical ailment that stops him from wanting his wife, he would be wise to get a counselor to help him figure out how to make better choices, he needs to work on cognitive and behavioral approaches to changing, if he's actually motivated to do that, but the real question is, WHAT'S HIS PAYOFF for not choosing to change?"

In my friends case, it turns out that his issue was with an unacknowledged lie. Figuring that out took time and both spouses working at it. What good would I have done him, or any one else by telling him that he is abusive and should just meet her needs and get over it. Any of that would have resulted in a man full of hate and resentment two years from now and a failed marriage.

One size doesn't fit all, Mates. People choose to stay in marriages for all kinds of reasons. If a person decides to stay in a marriage in the hopes that one day it will be different or better, that is not abuse, that is a choice (physical and verbal abuse excepted).

I strongly suspect that there is a singular key issue in Todd's situation. I would like to help them with that if he likes, but that would be off this forum.

Gimble


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You know what, Gimble, I have never said anyone should "get over it". Those are YOUR words. see thread title: "Getting Over It".

I did not stand for anyone telling me to "get over it" during my own recovery, I have no motive to do that. I know for a fact that doesn't work.


So what's your motive, for twisting my meaning to make it appear as if that's what I said? I suggest you don't want to understand my message since it isn't what you want to hear. People have much more power than they sometimes believe.

If you have not done so, I strongly suggest you go back and read all of Todd's and Cruise's posts.

Wayward people allow resentment to fuel their entitlement so that they can get away with selfish behavior.

Just as Todd has demonstrated in his threads that he allows his resentment to fuel his entitlement to withhold affection from Cruise, for one example. It is very easy for a BS to become wayward, the reason for the many warnings to BSs to guard their own weaknesses. Wayward isn't necessarily having an affair. Wayward is purposively disregarding your spouse's needs. Is there sometimes an understandable lag while they process their emotions. Of course. Does that make it right? No. One of Todd's admitted faults is his lack of compassion, Ok, I can understand that.

But, correctly or not, I'm convinced that Todd's extended period of limbo is ruse to cover the fact that he gets a huge payoff for having Cruise in a powerless position in the marriage, and like it or not, THAT IS ABUSIVE.

Now, rather than argue with you, I suggest we could or should write to Dr. Harley and Dr. Phil with details on Todd and Cruise's situation. I listen to Dr. Harley regularly and I watch Dr. Phil most days, along with having a minor in Sociology myself, and continuing to pursue my own education. Like it or not, I will be in a position to make these types of judgement calls in my career. I've "listened to" hundreds of Todd's and Cruise's posts, which is far more than they'd get in a courtroom. It's enough to draw my conclusions.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
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Mates4Life
I'm just curious as to exactly why YOU have decided what Todd or anyone else's timeline for healing should exactly look like. On what legitimate authority do you speak from?

If you speak from your own authority, what on earth, makes you think that YOUR view of Todd's, or anyone else's timeline for healing is somehow the bottom line? Because you say so?!

You have labled Todd's M "dead and sick', but I believe that Todd and Cruise don't believe that to be true. So they continue to groupe and feel their around on how to be happy and loving again. But, in spite of the timeline, you have labled this as sick and exacting punishment. Have you considered for a moment, that this is YOUR view and not Todd's? Consider for a moment, that Todd and Cruise are a work in progress. Since the progress has not met YOUR standard, you consider it a failure. I totally disagree.

For that matter, so does DR. H. He states unequivocally, that he has seen many a BS linger for decades over the devastation that has occured. It's not a good thing but it can and does happen. The good Dr. does not label these folks; "sick and hopeless."

Everyone is unique and different, and it will take some folks longer to process and deal with the devastation. Does not make them sick. Just different than your norm.

For the recor, you have no right to point fingers at hurting people, just because your opinions or values are different.

BTW, Todd,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 370
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Jerry - thanks.

All - I want to make sure this does not devolve into a discussion of my situation. This thread is for helping Gimble help his friend. Feel free to deabte anything about my sitaution that keeps the intent of this thread at the forefront. We can start a new thread for other discussions about my situation if needed. Thanks.

Todd


still doing the best I know how
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,517
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Gimble Offline OP
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Hi, Todd.

I think that I have helped my friend. For now, I am in a "wait and see" mode before I make a report.

I remain extremely interested in talking to you about your situation should you be interested.

God bless,
Gimble


-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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