Dear MOS, I asked you a question. I expected an answer so it certainly wasn't an attempt to silence you. Nor do I have a low opinion of posters here, because I know most of them see what's going on here too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Please do continue. I'm sorry you feel the need to attack to make your points, but it's okay. I wasn't there, and I don't believe you were either although I did give you an opportunity to state if you were. That does bring me to another point, which you can bandy about all you wish...but please check your BP first.

My words are for ZP to consider. I don't expect a response from you and that's not why I pose the Q's anyway (although I DO expect a colorful stream of responses from MOS, to which I won't respond. There is no need to continue unnecessary words with her.) I read your blog entries that detail how happy you were with your H, and with his help you were healing from childhood abuse - not a single entry concerned abuse from your H. About the alleged rape in February...and by the way, it IS alleged since nothing has been proven in a court of law, and this IS hearsay**, just like MOS' posts...during consentual sex, in the heat of a moment his finger penetrated your anus. It wasn't an oopsie, he was turned on and I would imagine he was hoping it would turn you on too. Both of you admit that you had told him not to do it again. Consentual anal play had been included in your sexual interludes in the past, so you might have allowed it and enjoyed it this time - you don't believe it was an act of cruelty to elicit pain, do you? If so, why? You said stop. He DID stop. And consentual sex continued. ZP, true or not? Do you believe he meant to harm you physically with the insertion? WERE you harmed physically? Why did the sex continue if the act was so objectionable?/Why were you still living with him after that time? You didn't leave then...you left after announcing that you were emotionally attracted to another man. Justifications are being made. Okay. No sweat off MY nose, you can make it what you will in discussion. I just hope this supposed one-sided abuse being discussed is the whole story and as serious as portrayed...by others. Your H and the father of your children is getting MB-lynched when you supposedly sent him here for help, not a hanging.

**unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge

LOL, I never said it was. I said "lynch mob" and "puppet" were. You might want to re-read your own posts since you seem to be having trouble remembering what you said where.


ROFL. This is standard verbal-bullying 101:

1. Throw some loaded terms around without being specific in the hopes that it will make people hesitant to speak up.

2. When called on it, when someone points out that this is just a verbal spar tactic, insist that anyone pointing it out for what it is, is attacking.

2.5. For extra pretend points, announce you're *sorry* anyone needs to attack you as a way to distract readers from the fact that you were the one doing the attacking.


Um, so? I have an opportunity to state whatever anytime I log in here. Was there some particular magic to you offering me an opportunity? You sound as though you think there is.


(MOS checks black-eyed peas.) They look fine, thanks.


Wow, you might want to do something about that memory problem, you just got done saying "I expected an answer".

Or wait, are you addressing ZP now? But you don't expect an answer? Erm, ok.


ROFL. Nothing like someone who knows nothing about the law making legal pronouncements. Reading the pertinent part of the law and giving your own opinion is fine, but you skipped the reading-the-pertinent-part-of-the-law part. Go back and read up on outcry witnesses before expecting anyone to take you seriously.

The testimony of an outcry witness is not hearsay. Since we're not in a court of law, my posts are neither.

Oh, wait, but you're saying you're addressing ZP now. So you're not saying MY posts are hearsay, your saying HER posts are hearsay. Her own account of the crimes against her is hearsay. Right. Stellar legal mind you've got there.


Ah, yes, the good old standard harry-the-victim tactic. Most of this is asked and answered, and Laura herself has stated she expects no response from ZP, so all she's doing is exercising yet more of the many standard tactics of trying to excuse rape.

Sorry, Laura, you didn't write the law, and you don't get to decide.

And I haven't seen anyone with ropes, so I'm not sure why you're obessed with that image. Shoving the truth of their actions back in troubled posters faces is something we do all the time here -- you do it yourself a lot -- so why is BH supposed to be magically excused? Again, what's going on with you that this case is supposed to be treated as an exception?

Lucks,


I don't understand why you say this is heresay. This isn't just ZP saying it happened -- this is also BH admitting that he sexually abused his wife. It seems to be one point they're in agreement on.

Is it your belief that ZP wasn't raped or sexually abused? If so, why do you believe that when it seems that is one thing they BOTH actually do agree on? My belief that she was raped wasn't predicated on anything MOS said -- it's what BH said and ZP said. Usually you only get one side of the story: she says she was and he says she wasn't. In this case, they both quite agree it did happen, it was SA, and it was wrong. Where's the heresay?

Mys

MOS:

Mys,

I agree this took place, also. They both said what happened. From MOS saying he should be serving 15 years in prison for it...that's where my own confusion comes in.

I would like to address the underlying issue here...ZP didn't call the police for the act. I understand why abuse victims do not do this...I'm not saying she's wrong. I'm addressing the quandry created where a court of law didn't decide if what took place equates rape or SA and what the sentence would be.

That was in my mind and that's what I saw Laura addressing. Totally my perception. And MOS's statement was shocking and authoritative. As if he knows more than what's been said here (hence the, were you there question) which was in my mind, also.

So I'll ask directly--MOS? Through other off-board contact, such as email, are ZP or BH watering down what happened or is it what they stated here? Or has it been in your experience that 15 years is a normal sentence for what BH did, and if so, that could be really great information for readers and posters on this thread, IMO.

I believe that part of stopping abusive choices comes from learning what is abusive, its many forms...again, as MOS broke out to Laura, what we may have not considered before. That means for both ZP and BH.

LA

Lucks,


It is true that consentual anal play had been a part of their sexual behavior in the past -- however, he had been made aware that her consent had been withdrawn prior to this act. It is also true that she might have enjoyed it or wanted it -- and he had the opportunity to ask her but he did not ask and that is what makes it sexual abuse.

I don't think what he did was to elicit pain from her -- I think what he did was dominance and power over her. What he did was prove to her that her boundaries aren't as important to him as what he wants in a passionate moment (or that he gets to decide what she'll find enjoyable during sex and act accordingly) -- that even knowing her consent was revoked he finds it OK to justify using her body in ways he finds exciting. That is a rape dynamic to me.

If he found the position stimulating and thought that anal play would enhance her experience, then all he had to do was ask her. It's not like she was unavailable or something.

Mys

LA, I'm not quite sure if I'm following what you're asking -- maybe you could clarify?

I said that the laws of my state call for a certain penalty for that particular crime of BH's. That's based on me reading the pertinent law and comparing it to BH's own statement.

It's as simple as that. What was it you wanted to know?

LovingAnyway,


An unconsensual sexual act is an unconsensual sexual act. It doesn't really matter who the person is who performs the act -- as cases have been won for spousal rape (though probably not nearly as often as it happens).



For me, the quandry is settled with the "reasonable expectation of consent."

You might remember back a couple of years ago, some colleges had instituted policies whereby people who were dating were supposed to ask for consent before each progressive step of intimacy: "Can I hold your hand? Can I kiss you? Can I touch your breast? That's an example of how things can be taken too far. Generally, in a marriage, there are certain sexual acts, styles, and positions that you comfortably can assume you have consent to do without all that clumsy asking about it.

If the situation had been that she had never explained to him that she didn't want to be sodomized than I would say that Luck's has it right and he had a reasonable expectation of consent based upon their prior history. However, that is NOT what happened. He understood, quite clearly from his own words, that he did not have her implied consent -- quite the opposite. She had, in fact, withdrawn consent permanently. Even then, had the sexual act been desireable to him he could have (should have, must have) asked her for her consent. At that point, there would have been no ambiguity at all.

I suspect that if he went into a court of law and explained that he understood she had withdrawn her consent for this sexual act but had decided he "had consent" based upon her behavior during sex, the court would find him guilty of a sex crime. Their prior sexual history has no bearing on the situation -- what does have bearing is 1.) did he have a reasonable expectation of consent (no) and 2.) did she give consent (no).

If prior history of sexual acts is all that is required for consent, then any person you've ever had sex with has the reasonable expectation that they have your consent for sex without asking.


I consider his actions to be ones of power, dominance, and control. He believed based on her sexual reactions that he knew what she would enjoy even though she had explicitly told him never to do that again. He had every opportunity to include her as an equal partner in the decision by asking her if he was permitted to do it or if she'd like that - to which she could have responded. He chose not to do that and to take that choice away from her - and do it anyway. I define that as abusive.

Mys

I guess I'm asking, MOS, how can you know that is what he would really get? How could we possibly know? Is that the maximum recommended penalty or is that the minimum? Are those judicial guidelines or is that what someone else was sentenced to in a similar case?

I'm astounded, certainly, at this...and I want to thoroughly understand it...for my own learning.

I agree him speaking was crucial...asking BEFORE doing...

And I believe her speaking was crucial as well...and saying "No" and removing herself immediately.

I totally understand that abuse victims may not see they have that right, that responsibility to themselves...same for calling the police to file a complaint, which could be acted on.

You said she's been working on this for these past three or four years, though. I think that's very important and I am not blaming. I remember what it was like to live trapped in my perspective, not knowing I chose it...that I gave myself permissions and didn't, totally within my power.

I also understand that to you, it's as simple as that. Isn't to me. I appreciate you answering. You believe according to the laws of your state, this action, exactly in the way it occurred and what both parties did, would result in a 15 year prison sentence for BH.

My understanding is that the sentencing guidelines are just that--guidelines. Each case is held up individually in court, examined through a trial, before sentencing would be determined.

And we don't have that here. I truly wish we did. It's a very important point to understand...for both ZP and BH. One of such severity I don't want taken lightly or made to be what it is not. Are you saying because BH calls it rape, as well, that this would be the outcome?

LA

Mys,

Thank you. You really helped me to better understand this, which I really appreciate.

LA

Oh, I see, that's a completely different matter.

If BH confessed in a court of law in my state to what he has confessed to here, that is what he would get according to the law. Easy-peasy.

Of course, that's not likely to happen. The crime didn't take place in my state. BH is not likely to confess in court. BH is likely to hire whatever defense he can and make whatever misery for ZP he can to keep her from prosecuting, if she did decide to do so.

So how would any of us know what he would get if he did get sentenced? No one can. It would vary according to his own shenanigans, his lawyer, the prosecution, the judge, etc. None of us are that clairvoyant. "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and lip" is the old saw that springs to mind.

But the penalty for what he says he has done is perfectly clear in the laws of my state.

So if your question was what does he deserve? Well, if you use the laws of my state and his own statements -- that sounds like as good a guide as any I can think of -- to measure it, he deserves 15 years in prison.

LovingAnyway,



I believe that if he plead guilty or took a deal offered by the state government, then his sentence would reflect that (and be lower) than if he were convicted at trial.

Since we don't know what state this is for, here is some information on federal sentencing guidelines for rape:
Federal Sentencing guidelines on Sexual Assault

(Note: the formatting is horrid... I suggest you read the actual data.)



Here are some data on sentencing (in months) from 1993 (also found in the report)


Criminal Sexual Abuse 189.4 (mean) 168 (median)
Abusive Sexual Contact 22.4 (mean) 18.0 (median)

I hope this helps.

Mys

Sheesh, that's the third one on this thread. Is there any reason why the MB population has known for years that I'm female, but on this thread people suddenly think I'm a guy?

<checks> Nope, still haven't grown a phallus. Still have breasts.

So do I not type [color:"pink"]pink enough[/color], or what?

MOS - I told you to stop using the Viagra. It works if you use it long enough!!!

Jan

So if I put in my ficus tree's water...

What *I* was saying is heresay, and purely personal opinion.


One incident has been amplified into what ZP says is rape, after stating that she was emotionally attracted to an online male friend. BH is being quite agreeable and in counseling. I think BH is agreeing and taking the blame because he's trying to save his marriage, not necessarily because he thought he was raping his W. I'm concerned with how intent is being portrayed. Technically, if that is what happened, the action itself was rape as defined by law. The police were not called. She did not leave to protect herself. If this went to court, there would be case law that would assist both sides.

During other incidents between them, ZP blocked BH so he could not leave - blocking is a recognized form of abuse. I've heard she threw objects, she slapped, she screamed, she insulted. I'm just not seeing a one-sided abuse situation here, I'm seeing domestic violence on both sides.

I think both of these individuals have poor marital communication habits. I think both of them have been abusive toward each other. I think ZP became attracted to her online friend, and now she announces rape and abuse to justify what she's doing. It was unreported and comes out with news of the EA, those are not just "little" details. I hope ZP is also getting help for her abusive behaviors.

Laura,


I took my information of what happened not from what ZP posted, but from what BH posted about what he knew, when he knew it, what he did and did not do (ask), and why he did it (her body language overrode her withdrawal of consent).


The conclusions I drew were my own, of course. I am not a lawyer. I presented why I think what I think -- based on the information I have. This "one incident" is one too many. I don't think trying to convince him that what he did was OK or "fine" is going to bring these two any closer together as I imagine ZP isn't going to come anywhere near him if he's going to decide this type of behavior is something he's entitled to do. (Nor would I ask her to do that.)


Well, we both agree that they have both been abusive towards each other. As I mentioned to Thorned Rose, what bothers me a bit is the scale. There's no doubt that ZP shouldn't have tried to block him - she should have called 911 if she felt he was a danger to himself or others and had him involuntarily committed for observation. That was a bad choice on her part.

However, i don't see how that compares to the real physical danger that ZP might be in from him. It seems from the things said by both parties (but, again, mainly BH) that he's not in physical danger from her unless she gets a weapon or some other equalizer (which I am not advocating, by the way). But, she has removed herself to 2 states away from him presently. Right now, a separation seems like the safest course for both of them. I don't think either of them are in a position to be accountability partners for each other -- they will need professionals to do that for them for a while. They can not be trusted to act safely towards each other - ZP because of her verbal abuse) and BH because of his physical/sexual abuse.

At the end of the day, my priority is always with preserving the life and physical safety of both parties. Unless ZP's physical saftey is ensured, I can't imagine how anything other than remaining separated can be considered. I don't care what she did or will do - she does not deserve to be beaten or raped. He has already mentioned that he's not prepared to offer surety for her safety. This is from HIS posts.

And, I'm not even sure what you're suggesting she do, Laura. Maybe you're not even suggesting she come home right now. So far, all I've seen you do is question whether or not the events constituted rape or sexual assault and ask her to 'work on the marriage.' I'm not sure what you even mean by that in terms of actions you want to see her take. The only action I can discern from your posts seems to be to change her mind/feelings about the events that transpired and stop calling it abuse/rape/sexual assault. (And, I disagree with that advice -- so I post to the contrary. Not to stop you from posting, but to offer my alternate perspective and why I hold it.)


Based on the literature that I've read (and posted from) I am not surprised in the least that ZP hasn't reported the events. They both seem to agree that the events happened. I suppose that the events could be subject to different interpretation, but even then, they both seem to agree that what happened was abusive. Maybe you're right that he's only "being agreeable" to appease her but I'm not sure that actually wins him any points in my book (I rather hope your speculation is wrong about that because then I think that would make me even more concerned about how dangerous he really is and it would make the whole situation EVEN creepier.)

I agree that her EA was wrong, she shouldn't have done it. From the progression of this thread, it sounds like the OM has stepped away and they've blocked each other from contact. I haven't seen any information offered to the contrary of that but then I'm not in private correspondence with either party. As I stated in a previous post, normally what you would do is encourage the WS to be transparent to the BS but, because of the egregous abuse in this situation, it would be unwise to give him that access at this time.

Which is not to say that ZP shouldn't be accountable - only she needs to find a safe person to be accountable to who can be trusted not to abuse her out of anger.


It sounds like ZP is in counseling - even BH has reported that. So, again, independent confirmation from both sources. It sounds like they're both in counselling, which is a good thing. BH says he's working through Anger Management - sounds like a good idea. ZP hasn't addressed what she's in counseling for but I would imagine the trauma from the sexual abuse and the years of physical abuse might be involved (and should be).

I don't honestly know what MB can offer them other than support (and I'm not sure how well we do at that). Clearly, Plan A is out of the question for either of them until physical safety for both parties is assured and all of the abusive weapons are put down by both sides. It doesn't sound like they're in Plan B. Exposure seems to have happened to the relevant parties (did I read that the OMW was informed? Was that verified somehow?). No contact seems to have happened as far as we know from what's been posted here.

Whatever happens with these two people, they will have to figure out some way to raise their children together - as they are parents for life. Currently, the only action steps that actually seem to make sense to me are:

- that they both undergo intensive individual counseling to address the trauma of abuse and also any dysfunctional abusive patterns that they've used -- which they seem to be doing. (I will note here that I believe I remember that BH has mentioned that he had abuse in his past -- not even necessarily related to his marriage that he believes contributed to the pattern. I might remember wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read that in some thread.)

- if they can't keep each other safe (if each phone call is a yell fest) give the dysfunctional communication a rest.

- get accountability partners in the professional community (counselors) instead of trying to rely on each other.

Other than that, give it time, eh?

Mys

[edited to add:] They might also find accountability partners in their spiritual/religious community if they are more comfortable with that. Being an athiest, I tend to think in secular terms (so I forget) but I do understand that religious communities often fill these roles.

No, I'm not suggesting she go home. They are toxic for each other at this point, so toxic that I hope parental alienation does not become an issue. What may have started as mere online friendship went awry, crossing into attraction that is inappropriate for two married people. The typical wayward justifications and rationalizations stemming from that will easily exaggerate other problems in their marriage.

In my first post to ZP on this thread I (strongly) advised she end the EA and work on her marriage, or earn her way out of it, and by that I mean marriage counseling. Consults with Steve Harley would be excellent in this situation, particularly since it's by phone; they wouldn't even have to be near each other. If she has completely ended the EA and gone no-contact, great, that's a major issue already resolved right there.

Wow. A battered and raped woman needs to "earn her way" out of her marriage to her batterer rapist.

We're back to some of the sickest posts I've ever seen.

MOS-

After reading the sarcasm and venom in your posts, I've got to ask...WHY ARE YOU EVEN POSTING ON THIS THREAD?

You've not made one suggestion to try to help work out the situation for anyone. You've done nothing but bash and belittle the people who have tried to post advice...generally based on MB principles, which should be no surprise given where we're at here...and consistently defended your sister. I don't have an issue with defending her...I don't have anything against her. But given that the majority of these people have posted with the intention to help, you could stand to ease up on them a bit.

If this is how you feel...why are you and ZP even bothering to respond to this thread AT ALL?

Why not step back, let the original poster attempt to learn what he can to improve himself if nothing else, and see what plays from here?

What are YOU suggesting that BH and ZP do here? If there were to be any chance of some kind of reconciliation...what advice do YOU give to BOTH of them to help lead them down that path. It's the darndest thing...but this is a marriage BUILDERS site...so the general focus is how a broken marriage (as this clearly is) can work towards recovery.

I don't condone anyone staying in an abusive relationship. I DO recommend that people do everything within their power to repair and rebuild the relationship...remove the abuse, remove the infidelity, etc...and recover the marriage.

What's YOUR advice to BH (the original poster) to help move towards that possible goal?

If you'd like to talk about ZP's side of things...why not convince her to start her own thread here, and work things down that path?

Really? Interesting. I'm not going to stop pointing out the anti-MB advice all over this thread for what it is.

Myschae has been pretty solid -- hey Myschae, do you think I've bashed and belittled you?


OK, now I know you're not even talking about me. When you figure out who you're talking about, maybe you could let us know. Until then, since you can't even figure out what you're talking about, I certainly can't. None of my sisters have ever even seen this board.


Funny, I've posted my suggestion to BH on this thread and on his EN thread. I guess since you can't figure out who you're talking about, it's no surprise you can't sort out which threads either.