Owl, you said yourself that we both need professional help. MB message boards do not qualify.

I completely agree.

You said you were getting professional help already, ZP. That's my understanding. MB forums aren't professional help...they are supplementary, to my way of thinking.

We used MC, books and MB forums to recover from infidelity and an abusive marriage. Professional remains within your own control, what you allow yourself to learn from, what resonates within you.

To me, one of the signals of being more in my inner child perspective than my adult one is when I see all or nothing...not the inbetween...not the mix...not the middle ground. Where you don't find one solution for one problem (which is as complex as the human marriage it's in)...you go for all the tools you can get.

Up to you, ZP. I'm not calling you a child...I believe when we experience pain, fear, anger, we get into our inner child perspective reactively. We reach to refute first before we search our own beliefs. You have been here for years...why this post? Are you angry with Owl?

Do you believe you need professional help? What did you think about the statement about earning your way out of the marriage--how did you perceive it?

LA

MOS-

First off, I apologize for thinking you were related to ZP. Based off of some of the previous parts of this post, where the word sister was used, I 'assumed' (we all know what that does). My mistake.

So looking back through this thread, you seem to have more knowledge about what's gone on between ZP and BH than what I've seen...how is this so? Do you know them in person, or what? Or am I again "assuming"?

Also looking back through this thread, the only advice I've seen you give BH is "quit pretending". Not exactly clear cut guidance that provides some active measures. What did I miss? Care to provide a recap of that guidance that you've provided to both ZP and BH, so that it's unmistakebly spelled out?

Nah, not really. It's clearly spelled out on BH's other thread. And since, as you've noticed, I know ZP personally, you don't need to know the content of personal conversations, which I don't have the right to post without getting permission anyway.

What it comes down to is that the MB forums are a distraction from the issues. And it is fine to use them as a distraction, IMO, but the MB materials are a supplement, not the forums.

The forum has refused to help BH focus on his own issues, but to focus on me, instead. This often happens, and it is customary for marriage coaches to request that their clients refrain from posting personal information on the boards (which is good custom, besides).

It happens over and over that the absent spouse gets fried, and the present spouse cannot focus. It was my habit to refuse to focus on the absent spouse, unless the poster was describing an abusive situation, in which the advice is, and ever should be: Immediate Plan B and get professional help; do not post (except for getting help with logistics), we cannot help you.

Personally, there was only one time when I posted about the abuse in my situation, and within seconds, I deleted. That was years ago. And I deleted, because I refused to paint my husband in a bad light: I rescued him, yet again, from the consequences of his actions. That's not what he needs. It's not what any of us need.

Oh, and LA, I didn't read all the posts here.

As for earning my way out, I think I already did that. I linked to an old thread of mine. I did the very thing that I suggested: established that the abuse is not simply LBing out of control. The source of the abuse isn't anger but an attitude, fundamentally, about my worth as a woman.

And then you say



First, I'm not asking you to read all the posts. What I don't understand is why you choose to believe this "The forum has refused to help BH focus on his own issues, but to focus on me, instead" when you haven't read all the posts.

Second, are you saying MB forums are distractions from the issues in your case, your marriage, that of abuse?

Third, you say you deleted your one post about the abuse and therefore rescued your H from the consequences of his actions again. My understanding is that you posted here, he didn't. How did this save him from his consequences, when it was your post? I'm not linking that up in my own head and I'd like to be clear.

You were here for you, for your marriage...that's my understanding.

And if I'm understanding you correctly, I'm in total agreement that MB forums focus on the person present (what you meant by present spouse?), not on the absent spouse (the one not here, not posting?).

In MC, I wasn't told not to post personal information on MB. We talked about MB and a lot of what I encountered I brought to my MC; and brought what I learned in MC to these forums.

And lastly, I'm confused as to this being your beliefs...that MB forums are a distraction (which is why I don't think I'm getting what you mean) yet you advised your H to come here for help? Just as you came here for help for years (was it years of steady posting?)?

LA

Hey LA,

I wouldn't wait too long for answers from ZP -- building a new life takes a lot of time and energy, so her presence here is likely to be patchy if not nonexistent.

I think there was a lot ZP didn't foresee when she suggested BH get help here. I know that he promised not to reveal her longtime MB identity.

Once he chose to do so, I came back after a months-long hiatus. If he's going to reveal himself here as her husband and then post disinformation about her, I'm certainly going to make it my business to correct it. If he had left her alone in anonymity, I'd have never touched his threads.

So there's a lot she didn't see coming. Hashing out all the whys and wherefores here doesn't sound like the most productive use of her time, so I won't be surprised if she chooses to skip it.

No. But, even though you found the picture of "my world" I still haven't received that pony.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Owl

MOS can be a bit stubborn about repeating herself and she's perfectly capable of speaking for herself. But I thought that some of the actual advice she's given (which often gets embedded in the side discussions about why's and wherefore's) is very good so here's my little research project for the half hour:

Executive summary (by me):

Her advice to BH:

Expect this to take a long time for both of you and face the reality that there's a large possibility that reconciliation as man and wife will never occur. Your abusive patterns didn't start over night and it's unrealistic to expect that you can 'stop them on a dime.' Understand that your access to her is very limited right now to protect her safety and respect that. Work on yourself and give yourself ample time to really break the patterns.

Her advice to ZP:

I did not find any advice specifically directed towards ZP in this thread. Though I did include two very interesting quotes from '04 which ZP linked to below.

Actual quotes (not a comprehensive list but a representative sampling from my summary):





From ZP's link



I hope that helps.

Mys

I'm sitting here reading through this wondering what ever happened to reality?

Somewhere I see a lot of lalaland visitors, and not a heck of a lot of sincerity in any of it.

Neither Zuz or BH are victims in this relationship, they both made choices as adults. (Besides the fact that I just spoke of them in the third person - I realize they're both still here reading.) To point this out, I want you to think about some of the behaviors here. They are both making choices, continuing to make choices that separate them, keep them apart, and refusing to acknowledge their own responsibility levels in events that have been popping up live on the internet.

Besides the fact that their laundry is being aired in public, with the evident approval of the mods, and each other... On going discussions of very personal and private events (or event) keeps popping up and making me wonder if we're really working on a marriage, or just spewing irrelevant words into cyber space and hoping to help some poor victim of marital boundary breaking will survive the molten lava of gossip... Good luck!

Seriously, if EITHER BH or Zuz were interested in working on their marriage, instead of excusing their past behaviors, they would be truly remorseful, apologizing for their screw ups (did I hear NAKED APOLOGY here?), instead of justifying every mistake they've ever made.

When you walk all over a boundary in marriage, in neighborhoods, or in life, you apologize and get off the danged fence.

Both sides of this discussion are justifying behaviors that do not have any excuses. There's no excuse for abuse, rape, etc.

Maybe when someone learns to get off the fence, carry the load, and make the relationship a priority; it will be?

It's possible.

Jan

ZP,

I found this and was utterly disappointed.

You got the part of the entitled WW down pat.

It really doesn't matter if your husband abused you. That is no excuse to abuse him back.

AFFAIRS ARE ABUSE.

If you ever claimed that you did not earn or deserve his abuse, then the same has to apply to your abuse of him.

You didn't earn your way out. You stooped to the level you said you despised.

After hearing from men, talking to me and understanding how hurtful and abusive affairs were, you go and have one, and claim to have earned your way out.

Get out of the FOG.

You may not have liked your life and how your husband treated you. But you sure didn't improve yourself by returning abuse with abuse.

AFFAIRS ARE ABUSE!