Of course. It's an excellent strategy for Marriage Building. Marriage Building is not appropriate in cases of abuse.


There's more stunned incredulity going on over here. How would having a batter-rapist have access to someone's communications NOT limit what the person says? Any sane person would know that they'd better limit what they say or the fists might come out.

Just supposing... Because anything more than speculation on this particular issue is just too danged confusing...

I think MOS's making the whole scene bigger than it is, because she's a drama queen. (I know it's a DJ, but you'll have to excuse the melodrama to get past the bull rushes, because MOS is just really overreaching in her descriptions.)

MOS has to have drama in her life - and so she's creating more drama for Zuz than "Zuz" can handle.

Zuz is depressed, deeply entrenched in depression because life is just really not going the way she planned and she's got a lot of issues, and she's being fed (BS) by MOS.

----- Life hasn't been all roses, and she's working hard to get through school, Zuz has some life issues that haven't been solved, and there's the continuing abuse that just keeps moving her toward the edge all the time. Who's at fault, nobody knows, here. We don't even have a clue how bad it was, or if it was abuse, since there appears to be no record of the abuse. ---

Zuz was managing well, as long as she could focus on education, etc. but when BH wanted more than she could give, her education, her Dad and Social Services got involved, etc. I think Zuz cracked.

She's a mom, she went to SC to protect her children, his sister offered her an option, she took it.

The guy (whats-his-name) is/was a friend, but he was encouraging her... She's away from her husband, who - to be quite honest - has proved quite disappointing to her, and she developed feelings. Are they strong enough to be an EA? Who knows? She sees them as a crush, MB and MOS proclaim any needs met outside the marriage to be an EA, therefore wrong.

BH found out about the friendship - MOS started dramatizing the situation and Zuz had to have an excuse... BH raped her, he's abusive --- although descriptions of RAPE and ABUSE are oblique and without substance, at least on the board ---

MOS gets her willies off on the drama, in the meanwhile BH and Zuz have children and a marriage to deal with, life isn't being kind to them right now, and neither of them is behaving even remotely like married people. Heck, neither of them is behaving like parents. They're behaving like children/puppets on strings of MOS, dancing to a drum they can't hear for all the noise surrounding them.

I may be totally off base here, but I'm betting I'm not.

I'm tired of the drama. I don't think it's Zuz and BH, I think it's MOS.

So, MOS, what's going on in your life that makes the drama here so attractive to you?

Jan

See previous response to you.


Again, see previous response to you.


Nope, just put them in perpsective according to degree of severity. Pretending they're of equal severity is just what any domestic abuser would probably love to see happen.


Right, because a person who has had their choices taken away by force for years needs more of them taken away by force by more people.

By your logic, you're acting illegally because you have access to BH's confessions and haven't reported them yet.


I don't get your role in it either. So now what? You choose not to believe what I've said I'm doing here, so then, I'm supposed to do what? Beg you to believe me? Utter some magic incantation that will shine the light of truth into your eyes? The last I checked, I don't control whether you believe the truth or not

Ah, one of those "when are you going to stop beating your children" questions.

So, Jan, when are you going to stop beating your children?

And if you find that flashlight o' truth I postulated to Owl, let me know, ok?

ZP....please take care. ((((((ZP))))) I've missed you, are you able to check into our old stomping ground? KB

I didn't see any 'flashlight of truth'.

What I am seeing is someone who has repeatedly, and very successfully managed to completely de-rail any attempt by BH to post on this forum, by turning all of the attention to herself.

I'll post no further to you. Frankly, its wasted effort on both parts. I WILL however, continue to post to BH and ZP as I feel is appropriate. Hopefully, the two of them will be able to come back to the forum without any more disruption by you and move forward as needed.

ZP and BH...I do hope you continue to post here. I do hope that you both take your time in making any decisions, and take steps to protect yourselves and children as appropriate. Please don't allow this humongous threadjack initiated by MOS prevent you from using a resource that is readily available to you. The only area I do agree with MOS on at this point is that you both need some serious professional help, help beyond the scope of the posters here can provide...please seek that help, for yourselves and for your children.

If the truth slapped you in the face, it would be abusing you, therefore it couldn't possibly be truth --- says you.

All conjecture asside, whether you postulate or not, isn't my issue. Leading a couple of young people down your purple path ironic wisdom isn't accomplishing much in the way of making their marriage work, or getting either of them the emotional or relational help they need.

If Zuz is planning to move back to the trailer (hey, she's a smart girl, she probably knows what she's doing), the idea of being afraid of BH kinda runs down the tubes.

Either he's abusive or not. Either she's done or not. Can't have it both ways! It doesn't work like that.

Other alternative: Does Florida law require that she remain in the house in order to keep custody and gain child support?

So, MOS do you understand those big words, or use them to impress someone?

????

so this means that you have a "dog in this fight" ... as Dr Phil says

LA - I consider that high praise from you. Thank you.


I think most people here feel that BH's exposing of ZP's identity a necessary element to exposing her EA. You seem to be critical of his outing her "real" MB identity. Is that correct?


Is it ongoing? That's one place I am having a hard time getting together with you. So far, I see a man who is making attempts to change and asking for help.

Again I ask, does his EA have any bearing on the situation at hand now? Is it something that occured before or is it occuring now? Is BH in a fog over it, or has contact been broken? If there is NC between him and his EA partner, then that issue should be addressed with a MC if and when they reach that stage.

Again, how does it affect the sitation NOW?


Because of the EA that he had. And because you seem to think that he is using this board and his computer by proxy as a tool to continue to abuse.


SARCASM ALERT:

WELL THANK GOD FOR THE INTERWEB!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I wonder how abused women were able to make contact with the outside world without it.

Again, if he were trying to cut off contact with the outside world entirely, I could see your alarm. As it is, limited computer use looks to me like nothing more than setting a boundary to keep them from practicing damaging behavior to each other.


I will try again to make my point. It does ZP a disservice to assume that she will simply walk into a trap. If she sees limited computer time as an element of abuse and control, then she doesn't have to return.


I am suggesting that there are ways to express confusion, lack of understanding, and even frustration that are more respectful than how I feel you have done so so far. I feel that you are couching your replies in ways that imply your points are the obvious truths and everyone else's failure to understand is just that - their failure.

That might be, as you say, just how I am choosing to take it. Indeed I am not really taking it, just observing it. I don't think that I am the only one, if it makes any difference.

Cat fights...dog fights....

(passing popcorn)

Want a frozen coke?

For ZP and BH,

For what it's worth...

BH - I believe this is an opportunity for you to show that your marriage comes before all else...that ZP's safety is of primary concern, and no, she's not to move back.

Demonstrate how important her safety is...be willing to look at churches, churchmembers for housing; government support, and all the abuse-related services out there...near your sister. Be diligent and do not let your self-image discount any option. I believe you can do this.

Why not POJA a realistic time? Six months? Where making it work for that long of separation IS honoring and respecting your marriage. So when you ask people for help, you don't say a week or two...you state your big goal and let God provide...he'll come through for you. I believe he wants you to be shocked at much you are already loved and cherished in this world. He'll lead you to abundant life, filled with respect and love...if you're willing to follow and be open to his guidance. Instead of concentrating on whether to reconcile or end the marriage...why not make six months of healing, studying, knowing and sharing respectfully, from a distance...the way to the rest of those decisions? Sure would drain the reactivity out of your daily experience, wouldn't it?

ZP - your degree is important. Getting yourself into a stable routine, living environment and perspective seems to be as necessary as going to class. Will your degree wait until Fall to continue to pursue?

Too soon to move back in, IMO. May feel like years to you both now...I remember how long one month felt, BH. Hang tough and widen what you're open to in order to mutually resolve the living situation.

I would evaluate continued IC first...if you're in it in SC, ZP, then how will you continue your sessions if you moved back in with BH? Or do you drive back to your old city and then drive back to BH's sisters?

BH's question about DCS is important...what they allow or will not factors in, as well. I didn't hear the final report on you finished up on the cleaning, BH.

I believe you coming totally clean with any EAs you now see from your choices in the past...all the way back to the beginning...would seat you firmer in your power, if they are any. My DH didn't understand that his EA began a year and half before he slept with OW...he didn't think using OW as his fantasy affected the marriage. Now he does. Same for me.

I encourage you to review and own your stuff. To share.

Have you both been talking by phone or mostly emails? Doing the listen and repeat? Practicing your acts of respect?

I wonder about accountability partners you mentioned you have through your church, if I'm remembering right. Could your church provide temporary housing for ZP with supervised visits to see your children daily, with or without ZP present, possibly?

And BH, would you consider starting a thread where you practice, in public, sharing your feelings (stating, not demonstrating), thoughts and beliefs...your processes and patterns? I believe being that brave is part of the road to redemption. I used coming here and posting as my act of honesty...and I still do.

Like anything in life, BH and ZP, you can take what you can use and leave the rest. I very much recommend Alanon, ZP...I think I did before. Maybe you both could go to different meeting times?

I see you both as getting the professional, the community, and the self-help you need...not limiting your resources...which is part of the abuse-cycle...the narrow-down, only existence but our own...and breaking that to bits is a great way to not go back to it...where you may have regularly gotten in the way of each others' growth, believing it was love...

For what it's worth...

LA

very good advice

Seabird - I was sitting down when I typed that appreciation statement. Don't know about how high I sit. Would you accept it as slouching praise? Sincere, just stooped?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

At the risk of seeking validation outside of myself, I will take low slouching praise any day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This is a truly remarkable thread. It started with someone asking if they should establish boundaries if their spouse returns home...seems straight forward enough, and leads to someone else trying to control the thread by warning everyone off of it because it supports an "abuser", while claiming to KNOW THE WHOLE situation.

What I find amusing is that if the readers here are being lied to, and the readers respond with honest advice, the advice will be of no use to the liar. Hence....no harm. DUH!

What the heck, Pep, it does seem like Tired_Dad all over again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JL

No, they are not. I'm friends with Tired_Dad. They have been divorced for a few months now, and his WXW is still with her Married OM.

One common denominator, though, is that in both situations, MineOwnSelf has decided that the husband is an abuser. That turned out not to absolutely not be the case with T_D.

LOL, Seabird...consider yourself valid.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Cuthbert --- you could be onto something, there?

Jan

Just an observation:

We all speak from our own experience and respond to what is spoken by others from the same experience.

And perhaps:

"The further we get from our former ignorance the less tolerant we become of that ignorance..." (S. Kierkegaard)

And:

When you have a new hammer, everything looks like a nail...

(dots kept to a minimum for LA)<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mark