Hi everyone,
I posted here about a month or so ago for a bit of time. My H had an EA, and we are working really hard to put things back together. Things seem to be moving along rather smoothly. My H has been so understanding throughout the entire process. We are reading and working on the book His Needs Her needs, and realizing that we both were failing one another in many areas. Thanks to so many of you for your advice, kindness and concern. I still have some "bad" days here and there when I just can't seem to take my mind off of what happened, and of the OW. I think I have nailed down what is the core of my "pain" now. Several months ago, my H was text messaging her quite a bit while away on a trip, and then another series a couple of months later, with more thrown in throughout the entire time. Oddly enough, he was texting both of us at the same time - meaning he would text me, then her, then I would reply, she would reply, he would reply to one of us, etc.... He has been so honest with me - at least I believe he has so far, but when I ask him what he could have been texting her about, and me at the same time, he says that it was nothing like the texts we would share - they were nothing. We have come so far and worked so hard to get where we are now for me to start questioning him. So my question is, do I pursue the content of the text messages, or let it go? Do I open up that can of worms at this point? I would love for him to prove that it really was nothing, but part of me is also scared of what is really in them. I don't want to be hurt again, but I don't know how to go on when I don't have all of the information. If you all tell me it is best to let it go, then I can - if you all think it is best. I just need an honest opinion from others that may have faced a similar situation. Thanks you all, once again.
HAS

Only you can decide how much detail you want from your FWH. Is NC in place? Are your both working on recovery? If that is the case, I would not ask for details. The details I found out can still haunt or trigger me now, years after the A when things are very good in our marriage. There are others who wanted to know every single detail so that they could process, know the full deal and move on completely--I know CV55 is one.

This is truly a judgement call and only you can know what you need. Your FWH should be willing to answer any and all questions that you need answered. Also keep in mind that this kind of stuff is painful and hard for the FWS too because they have to review in front of you what they have done that was so hurtful to you.

Since your H does seem to be on board with improving the marriage, in your place, knowing what I know about stuff sticking in your mind for a long, long time, I would be tempted to assume it would be hurtful, that his texts to her were wrong and let the details go.

Though, that he dismisses them as "nothing" would probably make me wonder, too. More than anything, it sounds like he was caught up in the excitement/rush/danger of being caught at playing with the 2 of you at the same time.

has,

I'm a detail person. I wanted to know everything. It was hard to hear, but I had to know. There are still some things I want to know, and I am about 22 months out from d-day.

There is some advice on the forums that you should write down your questions, and the reason you want to know the answer, and sit on them for a week or two. Then, if after the week or two you still feel that your reason for needing the question answered is still valid, then you should ask the question.

In most cases, I have asked my question after the week or two. I have thrown out some questions, certainly, after thinking them over.

I haven't noticed that I'm triggered any more or any less by what I know from asking my questions. I think I get triggered by what I don't know, by what I can imagine, more than what I find out as real. My imagination and worrisome nature is far worse than the reality of what happened between my H and his OW.

I think it comes down to knowing yourself, and what you can handle. For me, I had to have the truth, and I asked details. At times it was very hard to hear. But at least I know what happened, and I feel like I made an informed decision about what I was doing with my life.

SB

Hi Sisterinlaw and Lor,
I know where both of you are coming from. My H is totally on board with recovering our M. I do sometimes forget that this is painful for him, too - thanks for the reminder. I just can't help but wonder what was said in them. I contacted the phone co. and they said they could only access the messages with a subpoena, which I could get. Part of me wished they would have told me that once they are deleted, they are gone, but I know better than that. This is like my last huge hurdle to jump through, and I'm having a really tough time with it. I have not talked to my H about it. Maybe I should? I don't want to be hurt by what might be in them, but I also don't want this to hold me back for the rest of my life. It's all so hard. I just wish it was over.

Thanks schoolbus.

I am like you, I have to have details. Also, as with you, I can deal with what I am handed, but I find it hard to deal with the unknown.
You're absolutely right, my imagination and worrisome nature is far worse than reality.
So, what if he really doesn't remember? Do you think he is being truthful? Do I pursue it further if I can't get the answers I need from him?
I don't want this to cause us to go backward in our recovery, but this has really been eating at me for some time, and I can't get past it no matter what I try to convince myself of.

When you ask him what the text messages were about, what does he tell you?

Does he tell you he "doesn't remember ANY" of them?

Or does he pass them off as "nothing"?

There is a difference.

If he says that he does not remember ANY of them, I would have difficulty with this. I would then press for the NATURE of the messages. Certainly, he might not remember word-for-word the messages, that is likely to be true. However, it is unlikely that he does not remember the NATURE of the messages. Tell him that you want to understand the NATURE of the messages, that this is what is important to you.

One of the problems may be that he is not willing to disclose them because he thinks you will be very upset if he tells you this detail. Consider what your reaction will be if they are, in fact, loving messages or flirty messages. Or, if the messages were disparaging of you. What would your reaction be? Can you see why he would be reluctant to tell you the nature of the messages?

Given this information, now, how might you react?

Once you see how you might react, it might help for you to work through those feelings ahead of time, tell him about how you feel about each type of message in general, and that you have had these feelings. If you are like me, you've probably already imagined every type of message anyway, right? And already had the feelings running through your heart as well. So, tell him that.

Tell him that you just need to know the nature of the messages, so that you can put the worry to rest, know what they were about, that you understand he won't recall every message, but that you need to "know what to worry about".



Now that I have said that, how did it sound to you?

You need to know what to worry about.

Because that's what you will be doing.



I do the very same thing. It kind of sounds, goofy, doesn't it, when I say it that way. I think I just had a revelation here for myself. Thanks!


SB

Show him the now infamous, Joseph's Letter:

Here it is:

[color:"blue"]"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)
[/color]

All Blessings,
Jerry

Thank you. I have heard and heard about the letter, and looked for it, but never found it. I will use that to maybe help him gain understanding into my world. Thanks for the help.
has

Hi Has,
It sounds like you and your H are doing well considering your early stage of recovery. You wonder about the texts. My H had a short-term EA. I read the e-mails that he had saved to the computer about a week after he met with her secretly, felt guilty and dragged her back to our house pretending he had accidentally run into her. I knew on the day that he brought her back to the house that the relationship was not appropriate.

But it was when I read the e-mails that I wanted to throw up and felt panic. He caught me reading the e-mails and I walked away from the computer. At that point, he dumped them all. Weeks later, I had him retreive them. They did not all get retreived but a couple of them that I must have skipped over on that initial reading really stood out to me once he retreived them. They are now burned into my mind.

I guess after having gone through this, I would say to you--Your H had a one year emotional affair. He met her once and had physical contact with her. He phoned and textd her regularly. Like my H, your H appears to have been the aggressor in the relationship. Your H was in a big fog about the EA during that year. What do you think was in the texts? Info about real estate, or about his kids, or ball games? Well, probably some of that was in them. But he was in an EA, so of course some of the texts were about the E and the A of the EA. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that is the nature of the EA.

My H knew what he was doing was "wrong" and he never had any physical contact. He knew he was trying to get her to "like him" and he knew that was wrong. So of course within the dialogue of the e-mails there were things that he said to her that I found very hurtful.

I am certain that you would find the content of the texts hurtful. Do you want to know exactly what he said that betrayed you? Only you can decide that. Has he figured out how he let his boundaries down and has he protected himself and you against future boundary violations?

I think you see that there is no answer to your question about whether or not to open the can. I can assure you it is a can or worms, it will hurt, it will stay in your mind and it will cause pain. Will it help you figure things out about the EA that will improve your recovery?--Possibly.

You say you would love for him to prove to you that the texts to her were "nothing". I can't imagine that those texts to her were "nothing". Anything that he was texting to her back and forth while he was away on business could be defined as "something" from your point view.

I tend to agree with an earlier poter's thought, to ask him what the general sense of the texts were. I do feel for you right now and know that it is very hard to let go when you know you could find out more.
Lake

Thank you all for your opinions and advice. It's just so darn hurtful, and sometimes I just want to give up, but I don't becuase I'm not a quitter. I will ALWAYS wonder about the text of his messages, but maybe I will draw the line there. I don't want to bring any more hurt on myself - I really don't think I can take any more right now. Some days I am such an emotional wreck - one hour I'm this way, the next hour I'm that way, etc..

I guess this is the true core of my hurting right now: He and I both know that the texts were inappropriate - I don't know HOW inappropriate, but nonetheless, I would rather him admit to me that there were inappropriate texts than to lie and say there was "nothing." I maybe don't necessarily want to know the exact info contained in them - I just want him to be truthful. I feel like he has been truthful with everything else - especially about wanting me and our marriage back, but I guess I will never truly know, will I? I thought I knew him the first time around - I never saw this coming.

It's hard for me to comprehend how someone you love can cause so much hurt and pain, and the depth of the pain, and the scars it leaves. I see it in writing, and it makes sense when I read it, but the idea that I could ever cause this kind of pain for him is unthinkable.

On a good note, we get to get away this weekend without our 3 kids. I want to do a lot of talking, but I don't want it to be depressing, or emotionally draining. I need to make some plans for us to "get some stuff done" instead of just talk and not really get anywhere. I want us to have a good time and enjoy ourselves, but I also look at this as a good opportunity to work on some issues.

Thanks for listening. You're all I have to talk to. It helps, and I appreciate all of the sincere advice.

HAS

Has,
I hope he is making some plans for the two of you also, not just you. Some of the activities that my fwh planned last summer helped me and my relationship with him quite a bit. I tend to fall into the trap of being the one to build the R and he takes a back seat--not good.
Lake

I hope so too. Sometimes I do feel like if I didn't keep our boat floating, we would sink. I do feel like a lot of it is on my shoulders. In the beginning, he called me, texted me, hugged me, and kissed me all the time, but as time goes on, it gets less and less. I think in the beginning he felt very vulnerable like I could leave him, and very remorseful. As time goes on, I still think he is remorseful, but it's not so much as before for him, and I also think he feels safe in knowing that I'm not going to run off and leave. I still need him. It's only been 3 months. I told him this last night, but he just doesn't get it. How can I help him understand that this is still an open wound for me even though it isn't quite so for him?

has,
I think this is an excellent comment and question. It pretty much describes where I am at right now also. Granted, I found out about my H's wayward activities very early on in the EA and he went no contact as soon as I found all the ugly private stuff he was saying to her--the whole flirting on the square stuff. They had one meeting where the only touching was a hello hug.

I asked my H the other day that since he is not reading the books or reading this site, what is his source for improving the M other than me? He responded that he thinks that for years he was just refusing to listen to me about the marriage and now he is listening and being a better person. He agrees that MBer principals are research based and a good way to build a marriage.

I think there is great support on this site for betrayed spouses who need to break up affairs. I find the people who post routinely on Infidelity, general questions to be on the mark with marriage builder principals. But then, when I go over to the emotional needs forum, I just don't seem to find what I need there. I feel stuck about how to improve the marriage.

Then I read somewhere on this forum about the betrayed spouse needing to be careful about doing too much. I can't even remember the context, but it resonated with me.

Can an experienced marriage builder jump in here and comment about what to do after no contact is established and the marriage is intact but the wayward just backslides on building the marriage?
Lake

I'm would love to know what to do from here. I need help convincing H that I still need him to work on this with me. If anyone has any adivice, please jump in!
HAS

Has, I understand how you feel. We are still struggling with FWH's withdrawal, and sometimes I just want to punch him in the face, he makes me so crazy. I haven't done that though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He has an attitude sometimes like I should be grateful he chose to stay with me, and doesn't show the same gratitude for my choosing to stay with him. It irks me, but I'm trying to wait out the w/d until he's himself again. I hope that happens.

Has,
My FWH had no problems with withdrawal. He gave it all up as soon as I read all the e-mails he had saved. I said, "Just end it." and he did. Now, it would be nice to get more help in re-building, but maybe I need to be patient and go back to the well a few more times.
Lake