Well, I guess I went officially into Plan B. Ultimate dreading it, tried it the last separation and folded the second night. Of course, H did come home, but...obviously not for always.<P>The thing that bugs me is that H thought it was great...he doesn't have to face me. He told me today that he must not love me--ouch! I said "that's interesting that you said that because the man (my H for those of you with wandering minds!) that was holding me on the bed a short while ago clearly does love me--but then later when we were saying goodbye I said that I loved him...and guess what "I love you too, Lor." Another ouch!<P>We set up some visitation. And I told him I wasn't trying to keep him from the kids, I would let them call anytime (as if he knew exactly where they can reach him...) and he could always call for them and I would hand the phone over if I answered. We talked it over with our kids--at 14 & 11 we both feel they have some rights. The 14 year old told him she wouldn't talk to him on the phone, nor would she spend the night at where he is living. The 11 year old gave him a "maybe" on both options. He says "How about if I come over here to see you?" At that point, since the kids were there, I didn't say that was in direct contradiction of what I had laid out for Plan B.<P>He doesn't want Plan B. But then, since we've gone through 5 separations in Plan A, why would he?<P>We argued about my having his house key. I finally said he could keep it, but we both needed to think about it and we have an appointment to talk on Monday. Maybe that isn't Plan B either, but we have some financial things to hammer out--he has the clout, so we don't fit that textbook SAA outline. I'd appreciate any input on keys, locks & what you can say if you lock them out. I alreay said, "You're leaving me, you're moving out (albeit without taking his stuff--more Plan B non-compliance, he could have taken what he needed Fri. or today), you've chosen for this not to be your house."<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Lor:<P>When I went to Plan B I did the following:<P>1. Got his keys and garage remote.<BR>2. Set up visitation schedule. He rang and son came to door and walked out.<BR>3. Asked him not to come into the house at all.<BR>4. Got caller-ID (this was critical). I never answered the phone when he called and we didn't have to have a rigid calling schedule.<BR>5. Changed all the passwords on my voicemail, e-mail, etc. (this threw him for a loop. he sent me a vm 3 days later).<BR>6. Set my inlaws up as a go-between. This didn't work for me. We decided instead to use e-mail for logistical messages. He tried to slip other things in at first and I just didn't respond to them. Then he stopped that.<P>We really had no contact for five solid months, but I don't think I did enough. While Plan B is primarily to protect you and your love, it is also to let him fully experience life "in the real world". So in addition to the above, I should have:<P>1. Not done his taxes for 1998.<BR>2. Not renewed the insurance on his car (which I've now done three times).<BR>3. Gone to the post office and forwarded all his mail.<BR>4. Told the dentist, doctors, and all others that he no longer lives here so send the bills directly to him (they still don't know and I still take care of the bills).<BR>5. Stopped packing up everything for my son each visit and told him he needed to buy stuff for the kids to keep at his apartment.<P>I think the closer you can make it to the divorce situation (without animosity or hostility though), the better. When you keep doing things for him, as I have, you become an enabler of the behavior. <P>I think he will strongly rebel to your Plan B. Why not! He's got one great deal going now. You meet his needs extremely well and he doesn't have to do a thing. If you hold the line, Plan B will be very unpleasant for him by comparison..<P>Whether it will work or not is another question. Who can really say? But it is clear that the current process isn't getting the desired result. I think there are other major contributing factors, such as the fact that he works at the same place as OW and and never fully exits withdrawal, and also that he isn't doing enough to treat what appears to be depression. Whether Plan B inspires him to address these issues, let's him escape his current pain, or throws him into a deeper, more incapacitating depression, is anyone's guess. I'll be joining you in prayers for the right outcome.<P>

Lor,<P>I don't have much to say on this (never been in plan B) but unless he gives you free access to "his place", he should turn all keys in to you.<P>Fair is fair!<P>------------------<BR>RobinAnn<P>*********<P>Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape!

I don't know how it is in your state, but in my state I cannot lock (when wanting to throw out) my W out of the house. We are both on the deed to the house and my lawyer says I am not allowed to change the lock, until there is either a divorce, or if there is a threat made by her on me or the kids or on property.<P>Right now, I am still in Plan A so it doesn't make a difference, but when/if I ever go to Plan B, I'm not sure how to handle this issue.<P>Your 14yo is very bright... like my 17yo... but he goes for the visitation to protect his younger brother and sister, just in case OM violates the restraining order and spends an overnight with my kids... (strange though... OM lives with my W when kids aren't visiting... has for 5 1/2 weeks now.)<P>I forced my W to take as much of her clothing (and other stuff) when she moved out... but I think I was Love Busting then... this was before I found out about MB. Again, since I'm in Plan A... I don't do that anymore... but I don't know if a Plan B would have you do that (to eliminate contact.)<P>Prayers... and best wishes<P>Jim<P>-------------------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...<BR>

Hi Lor,<P>I am on Plan B too. You have may thoughts and prayers.<BR>When my h left, he took all of his things with him. I was still Plan A (I was doing a lot of LB then).<BR>Since I have gone to B, it is working well. This is what I have done:<BR> 1. He is totally moved out of the house.<BR> 2. He has given me back the house/car keys (you might want to check if you can change to locks-my atty advised me not too. She said I needed a court order first)<BR> 3. We have set up visitation for our child. Since she is young, we still have contact during those times. We do not talk about ANYTHING but her.<BR> 4. He is not allowed to call me and visa versa. All contact we have is via e-mail. If an emgergency occurs, we have set up a plan. (We have a list of phone #'s and people to contact)<BR> 5. Since our divorce is in process, my atty recommends that I continue with no contact until we have settled.<BR> 6. I am not doing anything for him. He is to supply all the needed things for our child -diapers/clothes/food, etc. I do not give him anything when he picks her up.<BR> 7. He is also responsible for her health care. I have contacted all of our providers and given them the new address.<BR> 8. I have also contacted all of the other senders (who he gets mail from) and asked themn to change the address. If he doesn't live here, I shouldn't get his mail.<P>It does get easier. It is the initial shock that is the hardest.<BR>I am praying for you. This Plan will make you strong. It sounds like this is the way to go for you, since your h seems to keep waffling on his choice.<P>Good luck to you.<P>

I posted previously on this subject ie changing the locks. My H had moved out and I changed the locks. I was nice and left a door open for him one day so he could use the computer. He used my phone to dial the OW long distance and talked for several hours, several days in a row. He also went thru my paperwork, finding information that I had accumulated on his affair. <P>While your H probably wouldn't do this, he could, and having a key gives him better access. Plus, he may not get that dose of reality in knowing that this is no longer his house, and he is no longer free to come in and out as he pleases.

Thank you all for your response. I'm thinking of printing them off and showing them to my H when we speak tomorrow.<P>When I read the suggestions to forward his mail, I realized one of the things my H does is give me the impression (each time) that it is temporary. By his only taking some clothes--and he did this even the time he was gone for 3 1/2 months--I always feel like he'll be right back. I need to firm up my thinking.<P>It was strange when I asked for the key, my H said, "Well who's going to take care of the house?" He has done very little with the house since a year ago. <P>Well, at least I didn't try to call him last night. Everytime I thought of him I spiritually consigned him to Christ's will. Kids & I watched 3 movies. I highly recommend "The Other Sister". It was funny & sweet.

Hi, Lor,<P>Just wanted to wish you peace & strength as you think about & move into your new phase... I never had to contemplate a Plan B, so any advice I give would kinda be 'talking through my hat'... but having kept up with your story, I really thought Distressed gave some good advice. <P>Somehow it makes sense to me that it *is* time to "firm up your thinking", as you put it... out of love & hope you have made things very easy for your H, & I think maybe it's not a bad idea to allow for some "natural consequences" to occur (hey, we do this for our misbehaving two-year-olds, don't we? ). I think you have every right to ask him for house keys & limit his access to you & house in every way. I also know how far you have come, Lor, and I know you can do it in a calm, rational way! <P>Maybe a good, solid, meaningful Plan B will accomplish what your EXCELLENT Plan A didn't. You've done wonders already, Lor... maybe he needs a taste - no, a *strong dose* - of what his decisions (or lack thereof) will REALLY result in.<P>Good luck, Lor; I know you will find your way through all this as you have everything else so far. Truly, I am so awed by your strength and the fact that your sense of humor is still intact. You are one amazing lady! <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Lor<BR>Just said hi on Deb's prayer thread.<BR>I've been thinking of you and you are in my prayers. You are one special lady.<BR>I don't have a single word of wisdom in this head right now. Just wanted to let you know I'm pulling for you!

Lor,<BR>You have to take care of yourself and your kids first. I"m sure going to plan B wasn't easy. It is so hard to understand our h thinking and what they are willing to give up for their addiction. As you once said to me, our situations are so similar, with h going back and forth. I'll be praying for you and try to follow your progress.

Lor,<P>Unfortunately for us, Plan A by itself is not generally successful at solving the marital problems. Plan B is often necessary to complete the process. When Plan B is successful, it means that Plan A was successful, too - it's just that we can't see it's success until Plan B works.<P>If Plan B is "executed" according to Dr. Harley's guidelines, your husband will miss you and the contact he could always count on during your Plan A. Trust me, he HASN'T GOT A CLUE what Plan B will mean to his life - there is no way for him to imagine it, since he has never experienced it before.<P>Lor, you are a remarkable woman - you have endured through his waffling back and forth for a LONG time - it is time for YOU now, and you can do this! He can't ... I'm sure of that. Do the Plan B letter - the written word can be far more powerful than the spoken.<P>I am nearly there ...<P>terri

Hi Lor,<P>I haven't posted to anyone in a long while as I really don't have anything to offer at this point. I'm still in limbo land. H is still living in apt., sleeps there every night but is with us every weekend and most week nights. We have not had any discussions about where we are going, what he is planning, if he is seeing ow still in over five weeks. In our house those are major lovebusters that are being avoided until a further date. Right now I'm just trying to make home a safe place so he will keep coming here.<P>Plan B is hard. When I saw h with ow 5 1/2 weeks ago I wrote a major plan B letter and gave it to him. Then I took my two boys on a 2000 mi. trip back east for three days. While I was gone, he took the rest of his things to a point. Everything he needed to live in his apt. Clothes that were up to date, jackets, fishing pole etc. His drawers and closet still have clothes in them but they are clothes he does not wear anymore. I asked for the keys to the house in the letter but never got them back and never pursued it. It was a very emotional weekend. While we were gone he bought more furniture, fully furnished his kitchen and bought a new computer. <P>While we were back east my children called him almost every hour although he didn't answer because he was out shopping. He reacted to the plan b letter and set up house. I had a really tough weekend dealing with my childrens feelings and my immediate family's feelings regarding his move. I caved in and asked him to pick us up at the airport when we returned. We have had no major discussions about the plan b letter, what is going on in his life, ow or anything but daily conversations and plan b pretty much flew out the window as he calls us every morning, comes by several times a week after work and is with us every weekend participating in the kids sporting events.<P>I failed miserably at plan b. I hope you are stronger than I was as many people on this forum have had success with it. I believe in it as my h is very unorganized and even though he doesn't live here I am still behind the scenes making things run smoothly. If I truly went into plan b, it would be a major eye opener for him but also have reprussions against me and my children as they would have to quit many of the activities that they love.(No, I don't do his laundry unless he happens to leave something here, I don't do his dry cleaning, shopping etc.) I guess it's hard for me because my children are on three hockey teams, two baseball teams and cub scouts. H is coach of two of those teams and I am the team mom. We have many mutual friends and are friends with alot of neighbors. Because of our childrens ages we are pretty much thrown together.<P>My h is like yours. He still loves me, kisses me good bye when he leaves for his apt. They are just so confused, so guilty. I truly believe it is mid life crisis.<P>Lor, I will pray for you to be strong because believe me I know how hard it is, I didn't make it. I may have to try again in the next two months if he doesn't come home by then and will need you.<P>Sorry so long.<P>Hoping (Chris) <P>

Lor. I am so sorry. I mostly lurk rather than post lately as I've been gone for the past three months, but I read your posts and feel as though I know you. Last time I lurked was about three weeks ago and it sounded hopeful for you. I am very sad to see this turn of events. The only thing I can say is that God's will and Plan B are excellent options. I know you'll be watched over and guided through this and you will be stronger. I have been in recovery with my H since January and H's withdrawal ended mid-June (right on schedule). We're rebuilding and this is my wish for you someday soon. I never did Plan B, so I haven't any insight. I wish I would have because then my H would have known what it would be like without me. But he wasn't gone long enough for me to do that. You are in my prayers and thoughts. Love catnip

Lor, did he ever say he would file?<P>Anyway, you do not have a classic situation. I'm not sure plan B is as much for you as plan Lor.<P>As in plan B, I think you can be supportive of the marriage. And I think you should give him a great big dose of the real divorce world, because he has no clue.<P>Of course you should stay true to your vows and not actually date.<P>However, if your H actively pursue's divorce, I think you owe it to him and yourself to show him what it will be like and actually start making a life for yourself.<P>Quit filtering every thought through the "how to best Plan A him" and instead think, how can I stay true to my vows, but build a life that is in the best interest of my girls and myself. Knock that H of yours way down on your list of things to think about.<P>If he shows some hope, then do what you need to do, but the truth is, based on his words and actions today, you do have to build a new life.<P>And this Lor is going to be even stronger, even more alluring than the old Lor...but she is going to be doing it for HERSELF!!! If H notices and responds, great. If not, maybe even better. Who knows?<P>Turn the page and start writing your own story, Lor.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Lor,<P>I am not sure if I have ever replied to you but I have been following your situation.<BR>If I was you I would have gone to plan b and plan d (divorce) a long time ago. <P>I think now is the time for plan B. You are past the time for plan b. Actually I would sit down with him Monday and work out a financial agreement. How much he is going to give you, dates the money will come in, how it will make it to you such as does he diposit it or mail it. Also set up visitations. And where the mail should go. Then I would also ask for the key and any other access he has to the house. I might even say ok this you can take and might as well pack all your clothing. (All women need the closet space)<P>I know this would be very hard for you but at this point what else can be done? I mean you have tried everything and I personally feel that you should start working on healing you. How much more abuse can you really take? And what about all this moving back and forth for your two daughters?<P>I had gotten to a point with Tony that I gave him some very tugh love. I mixed it in with MB but I made it clear that I was not his door mat and he could leave any time. And if he left make sure the door did not hit him in the butt on the way out. Funny thing the minute I made him accountable for his own actions he started to realize that he needed to really grow up. Hence, he and I both have started to read Frank Pittman's book "Grow Up: How to be a Happy Adult". Maybe your H needs a shot of reality. <P>Sorry for all the mis-spellings I stink at spelling and well as of yet they have not placed a spell checker on this thing. <P>But do please take care of yourself.

I am just awed by the love and caring I found on this thread this morning.<P>Distressed, Robin, NSR, butiloveu, Kate31, Suse, WS, Noel, Hoping, Catnip, FHL, Paha,Terri, thank you all for your stories and guidance. <P>Terri & Hoping, it is hard to be on the edge of Plan A/B, I know you both have been there as long or longer than I have.<P>Paha, I love to hear about people that have done Tough Love. I don't know how tough I'm going to be.<P>FHL, no, he doesn't know if he'll file. He pointed out what a procrastinator he is.<P>My H called the house yesterday to talk to the younger daughter, she answered the phone, spoke awhile, then handed the phone to me "dad wants to talk to you." I want her to have to handle being in the middle, so I took the call. He just basically wanted to know what I've been doing. The last 3 Sundays we've gone to a sports bar to watch the Rams game. He said he expected me to walk in yesterday. It's a good thing I thought he'd go to a different sports bar, because I was only a block away from that one after church. I don't know if I could have been strong if I saw his car.<P>I kept the conversation short and was the one to end it. But I can see we'll have to set up a better system for him calling the daughter. The older daughter refused to talk to him.<P>Keep those prayers coming. <P>And thanks again.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Lor -<BR>I don't know what more to say - but that I know how you feel. When my H moved out two months ago he said he would never be coming back and now.... Well I gave up engaging in speculation but for today, things look promising.<P>Lor, you've been there and back so many times. How can you make this separation different? How can you make it work for you? <BR>I asked myself the same thing when we separated and here are some of the things we did:<BR>1. Separate accounts - each took a set of bills and changed addresses accordingly<BR>2. H pays me $ towards kids<BR>3. Visitiation schedule (I was there when he picked up and dropped off but no conversation or contact)<BR>4. Communication through e-mail only (at first)and only about kids/logistics<BR>Although this was hard - I was so hurt at first it was easier than seeing him/talking to him. As I started to get stronger, I could make small talk when he picked up the kids - but I would not do more than that. Above all, build a life for you and the girls.<P>Are you in St. Louis? Or are you in LA and still following the Rams? We may be "neighbors" -e-mail me if you wish at Star__pony@hotmail.com.<P>Take care Lor.

I met with my H yesterday evening. We set up visitation for this Thurs & he'll have the girls Sat-Sun. Where he'll do that, he doesn't know, and whether they'll agree to stay with him, we don't know that either.<P>We've agreed to communicate by email if needed for the kids & finances. <P>He has agreed not to come to the house when I'm here or without the kids here and will call first if he needs an unscheduled visit to the house. He kept the key. He made it a trust/lovebuster issue and since he had agreed to not come here, I compromised.<P>Finances--his salary still goes in the joint account. He'll only draw out money to pay the roommate & live. I set up an account in only my name last June, so I have a pool of cash if he were to change this unexpectedly. He swears he'll never let anything happen (financially) to me and the kids.<P>He initiated hugs several times. Wiped my tears, got me tissues. I've increased my Paxil, but I can't get on top of this crying thing when I'm with him.<P>He's spent the last 3 nights sleeping on a couch at his office. He didn't want to be at X's if OW were to show up. He didn't want to stay with other friend because H is that guy's boss. Part of me is glad he's a displaced person and feels like that will hasten this process, the other part of me feels like if he would suffer through that to escape me, he must want to be away from me pretty badly. He's already lost weight.<P>He said he was thinking about calling my counselor to talk! This would be wonderful, and an answer to my prayers.<P>I got up this morning and found that he took out the garbage last night as he left.<P>Seeing him was confusing & heartbreaking. Plan B is the right thing for me at this time. Even though I miss him desperately...<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Lor, you are showing more love by letting him experience these things on his own, even though it breaks your heart, than you would if you "made it easier" on him.<P>Making it easier on him would also be making it easier on yourself, but you are hanging tough and not exhibiting any enabler behavior.<P>Good for you! Prayers as always.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Lor, I know Plan B was a very hard choice for you to make. I have followed your story very close and have been amazed at your courage. If I were you, I would pack his remaining clothing in boxes for him to pick up when he picks up the girls. If he didn't want to take them, I would at least put all his belongings in a garage or some area out of your bedroom. I would expect him to turn over the keys. I offered my key when I moved out, but H wouldn't take it. I never offered him a key to my place. <P>As the other posts have stated, Plan B is truly for you and your mental well-being. My thoughts and prayers are with you. <P>