I want to explore this topic openly and discuss the why. We have been counseling with Steve recently and after a long tie of trying my own plan on recovery, I am going to try Steve's.

Step one, Why.

What is the real reason. That is what I want to get to. The why.

My situation with frozen is unlike most around here. We were not married but we were living together when I was seeing OW. Frozen found out and one month we later we got married. So, as in most situations, we didn't have a marriage of sometime that had cooled on areas and then, because I saw that as some need being left unmet, I ran off.

I want to be able to answer the question why. Why did I have an affair?

So I am asking for some analyzers and FWSs to come help me figure it out. Possibly why you or your spouse had an affair would help me out. Maybe you could ask me some questions to help me out.

Please help me in this because I want to accomplish this step. Frozen needs it for healing and I want her to have it.

So, from the level I am at right now, the why exists in this form.

I was working in a hostile work environment. Many unprofessional behaviors were acceptable in the workplace. Flirting, crude joking and so on. I allowed myself to stay there. I have low self-esteem and a woman interested in me to the point of having sex with me was seen by me as a boost for that. Passive agression was/is a problem also. I have, for a long time, kept anger inside about things, and then events unrelated to the item making me angry are receivers of my anger. Also, intimate relationships with women are intimidating and so I have used deception, independant behavior and judgments to coerce what I want out of Frozen. Or tried. Relationships were seen as objects to use, not entities to cherish and grow. Selfishness in that I have only worried about what I wanted at the moment and not what others needed or wanted.

That is what I have so far. Please help me work this out into a deeper more meaningful why. One that addresses the issues about me.

I will add that this is the first step in Steve's plan and I am trying to get it accomplished. He gave me a phrase I am trying to achieve. So I need to get there.

if you wish to email me, my email is patriot92@gmail.com

Thanks.

I am going to review the "how affairs start" chapter in SAA and dig around on the internet a little as well.

So after being here 2 and a half years and counseling with the Harleys you are finally getting around to Step 1 - the why?

I don't want to be negative, Patriot, but I have to tell you, one reason I'm glad I'm DIVORCED is because all of the recovering didn't have to drag on and on and on until WH finally figured out why.

Well that is very useful Believer.

I think it's a valuable undertaking Patriot.

Thanks Big K.

believer,
I have to tell you that your post was negative. And I guess lucky for me, I wasn't your WH.

Nothing will change the weaknesses I have until I address them. And maybe then, the only thing I can do is defend against them and not remove them.

So interested in helping out? Or not? Really the only thing you have to lose is wear and tear on your keyboard and time.

I agree with you though. I should have completed much more than I have already. Doing it my way was not the right way at all.

And honestly, Frozen might divorce me anyway. God knows everyone here would support it I am sure and tell her that if it took me 2 and a half years to begin anything, then I was certainly not worth the wait.

I'm probably not. But she is still married to me. And I am still going to work at this.

So... in or out? Because I have work to do.

Well, you must be worth the wait, because she is still there.

You know, I like you. Something about you is very compelling. So if you really want to work on the why, count me in. But please leave out the stuff about a hostile work environment. I've worked my whole life in those, and remained faithful.

Since you have ruled out your emotional needs not being met, I think it probably has more to do with your self esteem.

Frank Pittman says that affairs happen just as often in happy relationships and marriages as in unhappy ones.

I know with my ex, the problem was his self esteem. He confessed to me very early in the marriage that he had poor self esteem. You would never know it. He was a good man, nice looking, had all the people skills, was competent, a good worker, and everything going for him.

But he had a hole in his heart.

Patriot,

U ask a valid question. It sure takes time to realize then know how to move forward, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Glad u r dealing with this matter.

As to the reason, IMHO those who allow themselves to succumb to having an A is primarily due to selfish tendencies. Whether it is also linked to lack of purpose and self-esteem may also be a factor. Nonetheless, the general rule that causes some to progress worse than others is the selfish attitude and need to control.

The core or seat of motivation is when we allow our sense of reason to be lost and allow our minds and hearts to wander. You may have noticed that the very things the WS' accuse BS and family of doing is exactly what they themselves are doing. Yet the Ws' learn to spin it so well.

The scary piece is the babble and steps leading to and through the A are sooo telling. Some of us here are quite good at almost predicting what a WS will say or do. Is it because we are psychic? Nope.....just seen it too many times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Sad but true.

Whether you come from a healthy or unhealthy background, rich or poor, happy or sad, pampered or abused.....doesn't really show a pattern, what does show is once that bug bites and we allow it fester, the withdrawal becomes intense and for some fatal to the M and family.

So Patriot, don't try to analyze it too much. You and Froz both need closure. The best kind of closure is one where you both participate in helping each other.

Froz will ask until her trust is rebuilt. She must. You will live in the fear of slipping back until your trust is rebuilt. Closure will rebuild that trust. Best if u 2 do it together.

Anymore than that and we will have to bop u over the head with our MB 2x4. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
L.

Better late than never....

Actually, everyone that has posted has made good points.

Since talking to my H, I have come up with this.....

Weaknesses in holding to your values, to the point of letting yourself distort your values. So you have to ask, what are your values and what are your weaknesses?

Values? Did you think cheating on Frozen was ok then? Probably not. Know what your values are so you have them etched in your brain so there's no guessing later. I'm guessing you didn't "value" fidelity back then. And if you did, you let your weaknesses convince you that it was ok.

Weaknesses? Instead of fixing or leaving your relationship, which takes courage and work, you allowed yourself to alter your values and beliefs to get your needs met, selfishly, at the expense of another.

Dishonesty is a weakness. You altered Frozen's perception of your relationship by lying to her, and controlling her with those lies. Because you couldn't be truthful with yourself or her.

Not being able to be intimate with Frozen enough to communicate your needs and complaints? My H is also P/A and a conflict avoider. You need to put your pride and your fears aside and show Frozen who you really are, what you fear, what you need, and what you dislike, what you're ashamed of, everything.....in a loving and non-defensive manner, and learning to accept her feelings about it. Are you afraid for her to know the real you? Does this sound close?

You allowed someone else to meet your needs to boost your self esteem. You need to do things for yourself, that are valuable, to build up your own self esteem. It's not up to Frozen or any woman to do that for you. Could this be a part of it? How much admiration and acceptance did you get from the OW? Was it deserved?

I'm still trying to figure out why my H had such a huge entitlement streak in him though. Why he thought he was above reproach. I hope he can answer that one for me one day.


Learn what your core values are, and try to look back and see how you changed your beliefs to justify what you knew was wrong and selfish.

Good luck. This is a very interesting and helpful thread for all.

(Hi Froz! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

"You allowed someone else to meet your needs to boost your self esteem. You need to do things for yourself, that are valuable, to build up your own self esteem. It's not up to Frozen or any woman to do that for you. Could this be a part of it? How much admiration and acceptance did you get from the OW? Was it deserved?"

I think Mopey is right on the money here. You got a "false boost" to your self esteem which, in reality, lowered your true sense of self esteem. I read a quote by Max Lucado a couple of weeks ago. It was comparing sin to salt water. Salt water (like sin) can quench your thirst for a short time, but then makes you thirstier and needing more to quench it again and again until you're dead (as the salt (sin) acts as a poison).

The only thing that can truly quench your thirst is pure water (or Christ if you're a Christian...sorry if you're not).

I haven't read all your posts but from this one it sounds like you weren't getting admiration from Frozen to help boost that low self-esteem. Did you get that from the OW? Sounds like it stroked your ego just to find that another woman was interested in having sex with you.

What were you trying to get with all those LBs? Sounds like they might represent unfulfilled needs too.

Do the emotional needs questionnaire in the context of your feelings at around the time you had the affair. See if the results match.

You may be trying to look too deep into this. Maybe it isn't that complicated. Like Harley says, you become vulnerable to an affair because some important emotional needs are going unmet by your marriage. It's really that simple.

Sounds like you really want to work on your marriage with Frozen at last. That's really good even if it has taken so long. Be thankful she's still there!

Have you thought that you might not have been doing a good job meeting her emotional needs too? Do you know what they are?

I wish that my spouse wanted to work on our relationship like you seem to do.

Good luck!

Pat,

I'd like to offer you a word of caution as you undertake this endevor -- Only YOU can answer this question for yourself. It's all well and good to ask for input, and kick around ideas, but don't take any shortcuts. Be careful not to accept other's ideas if they don't ring true for you. Likewise, be careful not to let others dismiss anything you truly believe to be a factor. KWIM?

So let's kick around what you've said so far:



As Believer alluded to, a lot of people work in hostile or inappropriate environments, but don't cheat. HOWEVER, I think it's valuable that you have identified this factor, b/c your environment apparently exploited your weaknesses. So until you've gotten a better handle on those weaknesses, I'd think it would be best to remove yourself from that kind of environment.

Also, if you are (or were) unduely influenced by your environment/those around you... what does that say about your boundaries? A little weak maybe? Worth some thought.



This was a big factor for me too, maybe the biggest. And it seems to be a very common denominator among we W's. The good news about low self-esteem, IMO, is that it's not a life sentence. With some work, it can be improved. So the question is: WHY do you have low self esteem? and what are you going to do about it?



I'm not sure I understand. I can see how this would be a problem in your relationships in general, but how did this contribute to the decision to have/continue an affair?


I think if you work on the self-esteem thing, the intimacy thing may fall into place. If you feel better about yourself, you won't be so afraid to be open with Froz. JMO.




Obviously, an affair is an inherantly selfish act. But I do not agree that everyone who has an affair is an inherantly selfish person. We all have "takers" in us. Sometimes, the very act of trying to supress your taker for too long can make you vulnerable to an affair (or other inappropriate method of getting what you want/need). Would you say that you are generally a selfish person, Pat? If you are, why? Why do you feel the need to put your own interests first? What are you afraid of? (I believe this may be another area that will sort-of fix itself if you work on the self-esteem. In my experience, it's the people who love and value themselves the most... who are most able to give to others from the heart).

--SC

wanted to let you know I have read these things, but I have to respond to them later.

Patriot,

What made you recently start counseling with the Harleys? Have you done something to make Frozen feel unsafe?

I'm a FWW, and my husband and I have been recovered for almost two years now. I know why I had an affair, but my reason doesn't matter. I've worked very hard on building my character and protecting my weaknesses. I've especially worked hard on making my husband feel safe, and creating boundaries so our M will be safe-guarded and protected from now on. Recovery is a conscious choice and you either do the work honestly or you don't.

My H and I were together for eight years before we got married. Two months after our wedding, I cheated on him with OM. So your situation isn't much different than mine... you and I were both freeloaders, married or not.

So my question to you again is... why this question now? As a FWW, I smell a rat. If you're doing something inappropriate, please come clean. It's the only way we can truly help you. It's the only way you can truly help yourself.

Katie

Why did I have an affair??

Short and less painful answer:
I was in a suicidal depression, was in therapy, probably suffering from post partum depression, then 9/11 happened and I kinda freaked out. Began searching for something and came across my first love. He made me feel warm and fuzzy and safe (safe was a big deal as I was sure the end of times was upon us). In my marriage, there was no money, no sex and husband was loosing patience with my depression. Husband avoided being at home, I was alone with a bunch of little kids (I was babysitting in addition to my own). I needed an escape.

FOM often said he saved my life. He may have, as I was really contemplating how to kill myself and not have the children find me. But really, all FOM did was delay the work that I would have to do eventually.

Longer and more painful answer:
I need an escape, some way out of myself. When I was younger, I drank, but I have been sober for a long time now. So now, since I don't drink, I go from one obsessive escape to another. I have really been putting off looking at myself for my entire adult life.

I have some screw loose that I can't or don't want to fix. I have been procrastinating on a mental break down for years. That is the crux of why I had an affair. It put off the work I need to do on myself. It was a pi$$ poor coping technique. College was a better technigue, the pond that I built was a better technique.

The affair had little to do with my husband or marriage, my marriage had sucked for years before the affair, nothing changed in the period before the affair. I just ran out of diversions.

To me, an affair is much like gambling, drinking, or any other obsessive trait (except that it will destroy the person you are supposed to protect).

So, six years after my affair, I am still at risk for some self destroying behavior-I am just running out of vices. Wow, that is a crappy realization.

I think you did because we call can

we can all rationalize our behaviors and choices

be them

choosing to smoke

choosing to eat things consistantly that are bad

choosing to speak harshly even cruelly to those we love...

having an affair...

we do tons of things...

that are hurtful to others...ourselves...etc...

because we CAN

we all are capable of them...

rarely is the choice made with others feelings and thoughts in mind...
or consequences...

most always they are made with a huge seperation of the choice and the consequence...

our brains are master rationlizers....
sometimes with out any deep dark seeded NEED or childhood scar...or missing something...

sometimes we do things because we in our brains seperate the act from ourselves...

denying that WE ourselves could be deceivers
could be hurtful
could be sexual with others...

that's not us..that someone else even in the midst of these acts...

I don't know patriot ...what makes you so special that you are different...and only acted this way because of some magic factor...missing or active in the old you...

and I say that respectfully and with my well earned respect to you and road you have traveled to get to this point...

but really maybe you did it because you could..cause he could..cause she could..cause I could....cause we all CAN do it...

and did it with only....
the ability to

seperate
rationalize
and
compartalmentalize...

do we
should we
are called to
continue to drown in self annalysis..

or do we open our lives and hearts to the good of God's light...and get on with living...and trying our best minute by minute to be execellent to one another...

ARK

Patriot,


That may be part of it but not the reason. I am in sales and have been away from home without my FWW on several occasions. Now on one trip there were a couple hundred of us on a tropical island, with alcohol flowing.

To be honest some people cheated on their spouses and others didn't.

I personally had 3 propositions to partake in a little hush hush SF. I declined.

So I wouldn't blame it on the environment. It may have part of it. But I wasn't the only married person not to cheat but there were some that did. One of the girls that propositioned me was married the other two knew I was.


Duh, I mean I don't mean to be harsh but that holds true for most guys. Again I am a fairly attractive man, can hold a conversation, and I have a good sense of humor. Women sometimes are attracted to me. It is an ego boost but I don't need to have sex with them for that to be a boost to my ego.

The fact that they look at me or are interested in me I guess can accomplish that.

If I had sex with one of them that would actually lower my self esteem because I tie that to SELF RESPECT.

On passive/aggressive behavior you should go to recovery and read the PA thread and get help for and correct that behaviour.

That IMVHO is abusive in a relationship.

But in and of itself I doubt that is why as well.

So here is what I would say.

You wanted to.
It was available.
You found a willing partner.
You didn't respect your marriage enought.
You didn't have boundaries in place.
And you Didn't hold yourself to the same standards you would have Held Frozen to.
You weren't open and honest about the relationship in the beginning.
You didn't protect your marriage.

So there are some of the reasons. But mostly selfishness.

It made you feel good so you did it.

I agree with Frogs post...to me it all comes down to a lack of character and self respect.
You can be presented with all the options in the world and bottom line is, no matter what you circumstances are at home, character, intergrity and self respect would not allow you to have an affair.

I wonder sometimes if it isn't the fantasy of being able to start over, new, with someone and be whoever you think you want to be with them - to make yourself over - and become what you think you wanted to be all this time, and not be judged as "changing".

Sometimes I want to change and not have anyone say, "Hey, that's not YOU, Schoolbus, YOU always say or do THIS. YOU can't change your mind!" But with someone new, you can - you can be all those things you want to try out, and not have anybody say anything - you can put on the robes of that "new" person inside, and be that person, and try it on for awhile, in secret.

I wonder if that's part of the affair lure?

Did that have a pull for you? That you could be "different" than in your "real" life, and let down that wall with her? Allow those changes that you have felt being made inside of you come out, and allow them to show, and not have to explain them?

Since the affair, my husband says he feels like he doesn't know me anymore - and HE's the one who had the affair. Suddenly, we both find ourselves being more open to the other's changes, more REAL, and allowing those walls to be down all the time. Understanding that change takes place every day.

That today I like blue, but tomorrow, maybe I will like purple.

And both are okay.

SB

I agree this is what is for some, especially couples married for quite some time.

In new marriages or even before marriage I think it might have to do with the fact that we are immature, haven't looked at the big picture or even knew about the big picture. Also we haven't taken he time to define who we are, who we want to be, how we want our lives to look and what kind of person we want to be. Or even that we actually have control over all of it as in we are the writer, the producer and the actor in this play called our life.

I also agree with Ark, about how efficient is self-analysis. Most important of all statements I have ever read is this -

"The most important question you will ever ask yourself is not "who am I" but rather "who do I want to become""

We need to determine this, and act accordingly.

Patriot, I think you were probably just young and not thinking about what you were doing. Chalk it up to immaturity.

Jean, your post hit home in a lot of ways, not in me having an affair but lord knows I did all the other things.

As the very wise Shattered Dreams told me "figure out who you want to be and become that person"

And yes, absolutely self-respect. A lot people don't even know what self-respect is or how incredibly important it is to have.