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Thanks, AmIok.

And no I didn't think you sounded too harsh. I really appreciated it.

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Quote: He didn't even remember telling me he loved me yesterday, said he must have said it because I said it first.

Did you really ask him that? "Don't you remember you said you loved me yesterday?" What was the point of that? To prove to him that he loves you? And then argue with him about whether he said it or not? Kind of cheapens the whole thing, I'd think.


No, I didn't ask him that. What got that started was I told him I really appreciated him telling me he loved me before I left & that it made me feel really good. He looked at me & said "I said that? I don't remember saying anything like that but I must have said it because you said it first." My only reply to that was, "No, I told you I loved you because you said it first & then I kissed you goodbye." For once during that conversation, I stopped right there & said no more about that, thinking to myself, How is it a 46 yr old man can't remember what he says from one minute to the next?


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Listen to him, listen and repeat, so you know it, and then let that be it.


The only problem we've had with this so far is when I repeat what he said & ask him if I'm understanding what he's really saying, he tells me he didn't say it, thirty seconds after it came out of his mouth. My IC has told me to repeat back to him so I can understand, but that hasn't helped so far & THAT I don't understand. If you have any thing that will help me with this, I would greatly appreciate it.


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Just knowing how he's been in the past, 5 or 10 years from now, he'll say "well, you've been doing a good job with keeping the house clean, so I guess I can say you've really changed & I think we can make this marriage work so I'll start doing more." Ain't happenin'!!! I won't wait that long.


Ok, this is a bit of a DJ.


But, you'll be glad to know that I didn't say that out loud, the Ain't happenin part. I kept that to myself. And, yeah, I can see where it's a bit of a DJ, but I'm just going on past experience. And since he tells me he's not changing anything about himself...

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he sees nothing wrong with anything he does & everything wrong with me.


Unless he said that, you don't really know what he sees.


Yeah, he said that. He said he doesn't think he needs to do anything different because he doesn't see anything he does wrong but I do this & that & have for 23 yrs & he don't think it's gonna change now. He asked me "What happened? Did you suddenly get a wake-up call?" I told him, "Yeah, I did."


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I'd keep going through and giving "listen and repeat" examples for the rest of your post, but I'm sure you got the point. Plus I think this post is sounding a little bit harsh, and I don't mean it to. You really remind me a lot of me. I had people who were much more couth, more empathetic and smarter than I am to help me start seeing some of these patterns and figuring them out. That's why I feel like I can recognize the same patterns in some of your posts. Much easier to quarterback someone else's game from my lazy-boy on Monday mornings.


I honestly don't mind the lazy-boy quarterbacking.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It helps. He keeps telling me I need to let it go & just forget about it. That I will never let it go. I guess I'm having a hard time with that right now because I'm not feeling much effort from him.

Like yesterday, I felt overwhelmed. I feel like I'm busting my A$$ to prove to him I'm worthy of his love. I want him to put out some effort other than just being there. He still thinks that if we just let it go, don't talk about it & forget it, it will all go away. But I know that if we do, we will be right back in the same situation we've been in for the last 24 years. That's how he's been taught to deal with anything bad. Except for losing that job, which he can't let go of, that's what he's always done. He doesn't want to hear how I feel about something.

I'm hoping that will change with time. He did mention to me that I just want all this to get better right now & he said it's not going to get better right now, it's going to take time.

Another thing he said to me was he didn't know how I'd waited this long, if it'd been him he'd given up long time ago. I just looked at him & said, "you say you haven't loved me for about 10 yrs, you keep hoping you'll wake up one day & you'll be in love with me again. It sounds to me like you've waited longer than I have because you're still here, so why shouldn't I wait."


As far as the lying goes, every time I answer a question he asks, his first response is "You're lying. And you're lying if you say you're not lying." This is all the time.
Most of the time I just look at him & wonder why he never believes me when I tell him anything. He's been lying to me for so long now, he tells me he don't know what the truth is anymore & he says he doesn't know why he keeps lying to me & everybody else. His words, not mine. And, yet, he expects me to believe everything he tells me without question. Amazing!!!

I just want to tell you again that I appreciate your help. Just knowing someone who's been where I'm at & understands my mistakes enough to show me a better way is a big help.

I asked him about counseling last night. He told me he won't go, he don't need counseling but I have some serious issues so I should get counseling. He says there's nothing wrong with him for him to need counseling.

It's so frustrating sometimes. And just when I think I see light at the end of the tunnel, something like Wednesday evening happens & I think I'm back to square one.

Well, maybe the weekend will be better. We're going camping, leaving today & be back on Monday. I hope & pray the weekend goes great & we finally have a little fun.

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Well, the weekend went pretty good until Sunday. We just hung out, rested & enjoyed the weather. Sunday, we started talking. I asked some questions, not about us but about how he felt & what he wanted. I listened & tried not to tell him how he felt. I don't think I did but I did tell him he was telling me how I felt a time or two. I was calm.

OW called me by accident Friday night while we were at the football game. A friend asked her why & not to do it again. She said my number & the number of a guy she was calling was next to each other & she hit the wrong one.

WH says he got an anonymous text message about my asking the friend to tell her not to do it again. Don't know how that happened because when I try to send anonymous text messages, they won't go through. Then it got kinda bad. He found out I'd been snooping & got mad. I think if he had nothing to hide he wouldn't get upset about it.

His problems with my parents came into the picture. I told him again that I didn't marry to please my parents, but to please myself. We went to bed & he told me he had hoped we could at least hold off on divorce until DD#2 graduated High School. I told him I didn't think it would wait that long if that's where we are headed.

I wish he could give himself what he's given me--the courage to love someone freely without fear of what others think or say, to love because I love & not because someone chooses who they want for me. Some of our problems keep coming back to my parents. That's a problem I don't know how to solve.

But, when we got up yesterday for him to go to work, I did my usual & he was in a good mood when he came back to load up to go home. Once yesterday afternoon, we were hugging & he said the first positive thing he's said to me since this whole nightmare began. He told me we were gonna get through this. I told him I hoped we would.

I keep my fingers crossed & pray every day for it to get better. He told me he'd forgiven me for my A but never forgot. I told him I'd forgiven him but I would never forget unless I got amnesia. But if we worked things out, it wouldn't be in the forefront of my mind every day. Because he admitted he'd brought up my A from time to time. Once was when we were discussing DD#1 starting to date, don't remember why.

We'll see. Things are maybe looking up. I'm still being cautious.

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Seems like a lot of drama from a mis-dialed call. Probably exactly what the OW wants -- to create problems for you and your H, with alost no effort on her own part. Don't give her what she wants! Don't let her be an entity in your life. Don't answer her calls, don't listen to messages. If she does get through and contact you, then tell her yourself not to contact you anymore. Let it be simple and easy and not worth fighting over.


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He found out I'd been snooping & got mad. I think if he had nothing to hide he wouldn't get upset about it.

We went rounds on this kind of thing, too, for a while early on. SH told my H it was his job to make sure that I didn't have to snoop. To set up a regular appointment with me where he shows me his call history and phone records, where he shows me bank statements and records, reciepts, whatever. Then the "snooping" wasn't me being sneaky anymore (I'd just ask H to see his phone, and he'd stand right there and show it to me), and it also wasn't MY job. SH said that it would be too easy for me to get into a bad habit of trying to prove the negative to myself, and that that would never be possible. So that it was H's job to prove the negative to me.

Once it was all finally out in the open, I didn't feel the need to go around sneaking his phone to check the call history or all the other things I'd been doing -- I'd just ask him, instead, or he'd randomly show it to me. Lots less resentment on both of our parts.

Just a thought. You may be able to get your H to agree to something like that (I don't know what SH said to my H to get him to agree to it.)


Can you POJA the problem with the parents? Are they rude or ugly to him? Does he want you to do something about it, or does he just need your encouragement that you chose him...?


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he told me he had hoped we could at least hold off on divorce until DD#2 graduated High School. I told him I didn't think it would wait that long if that's where we are headed.

Did you really mean that? You should avoid any D talk. Letting it hang out there as an option or as a slightly veiled threat isn't going to help either of you fel secure enough to work on the M. Your message should always be "I don't do divorce." or "I believe that we're going to build a great M, I'm not going to discuss timing of a D." or whatever. Don't get drawn into agreeing on timelines (or anything else) for a D.


Glad you had a mostly nice weekend!

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Seems like a lot of drama from a mis-dialed call. Probably exactly what the OW wants -- to create problems for you and your H, with alost no effort on her own part. Don't give her what she wants! Don't let her be an entity in your life.


Yeah, I guess you're right. He said I shouldn't have gotten so upset over a mis-dialed call. I think I did because I'm trying so hard to stay away from her & then this happens & I felt like it was mis-dialed because she was trying to call WH. Probably wrong & now I'm just trying to get past it.



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We went rounds on this kind of thing, too, for a while early on. SH told my H it was his job to make sure that I didn't have to snoop.

Once it was all finally out in the open, I didn't feel the need to go around sneaking his phone to check the call history or all the other things I'd been doing


I basically told him that if he could show me he didn't have anything to hide & wasn't lying to me, I wouldn't have any reason to snoop & I could trust him again. He told me it was over because he wasn't going to have a wife who was a snoop & I would never let it go so the snooping would never stop. I told him that I just wanted to trust his word & when he did things to let me know I could trust him, I could let it go.

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Can you POJA the problem with the parents? Are they rude or ugly to him? Does he want you to do something about it, or does he just need your encouragement that you chose him...?


Not sure about this. For some reason, my parents acceptance of him is extremely important. I know that they never liked him & have not given us any encouragement to stay together. But I have told him many times over the years that I didn't marry him because my parents picked him for me, I married him because I picked him for me. My brother married a woman that my dad introduced him to (Hand-picked, in other words). She has more hang-ups than my WH. But they just love her & would never say anything to my brother about how she treats the rest of us. But they have no problem coming to me when they don't like something my H does. My brother has broken something, we paid to have it fixed so we could borrow it, & my parents say we always bring things back broken & don't fix them. I know this is not true. They don't say anything to my other brother about his wife either but they complain to me alot about her. I'm the oldest. And my parents didn't marry to please their parents, so why should I?

My WH says all he ever wanted was their approval. I still don't know why that is so important to him because I never thought it was necessary. After my parents are gone, I'll be living the way I want to, not the way they want me to. If I'd let them pick for me, I might not be a happy person.

No one truly knows what goes on in someone else's marriage. And the side my H shows to the world in general is not the way he is at home. But people outside of our little family don't see that. And I don't care if they do or not. My choices are mine alone & not for others to make. Which is why my parents approval is not needed to make me have a happy marriage. If I divorce, I still won't choose to have a relationship with someone they like. The choice I make probably will not make them happy, but I have to live with my husband longer than I have to live with them & my choice should be someone I want to spend my last years with.

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Did you really mean that? You should avoid any D talk. Letting it hang out there as an option or as a slightly veiled threat isn't going to help either of you fel secure enough to work on the M. Your message should always be "I don't do divorce." or "I believe that we're going to build a great M, I'm not going to discuss timing of a D." or whatever. Don't get drawn into agreeing on timelines (or anything else) for a D.


Yepper, you're right about this, too. I'm not sure I really meant it. But at that moment, I was so down I didn't care about anything. It was one of the really down times that I sometimes have. When I'm so deep in despair that I don't think I'll ever be happy again. But when he said we would get through this the next day, it really helped to lift my spirits & I told him that later that night, how much I appreciated hearing it. I hope he really heard how good it made me feel & that it made a difference.

I see that I'm reacting again rather than standing back & letting it roll off. When I'm down in that hole, I can't seem to remember what I need to to stop myself from doing it. Thanks for pointing it out. When you repeat it back to me, it shows me how bad I really acted. I sometimes wish I had something that would give me an electric shock everytime I started doing it to remind me not to do it.

Thanks!! I needed that.

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Yesterday, I got 2 voicemails from 2 different people with the same message. It said:

"Tell WH that OW ain't no saint. She's f***ing someone named Tom lives on Palmer Street to go check it out. He needs to leave her alone."

That was the first message & the second said pretty much the same thing but a little more graphic word-wise. My WH listened to the second one. He's still trying to figure out who it is. I don't have a clue.

I asked him why someone would call me with that if he isn't seeing her. He isn't & I believe him.

But he got very angry about her sleeping with someone else. I asked why he was upset & did he think she wouldn't date anyone else. He said no he thought she would date but there is a difference in dating & sleeping with someone you just met. I told him we don't know how long she's known this guy. He called her all kinds of names & admitted to me he's jealous about it. I told him I appreciated him telling me the truth. He was even angry with me. I asked why he was upset with me because I didn't make the call. He said I wouldn't understand & it was nothing. Then he got depressed & stayed that way the rest of the night.

He was still depressed this morning. He told me last night that I probably wanted him to call her & chew her out in front of me. I told him I didn't want him to call her at all because if he did, she would just be getting the attention she wants. That someone may have been doing it for her so it would break us apart again because she's the only one who benefits by it.

But he also said he would never have anything to do with her now that she's done this. I told him he shouldn't be mad if he's done with her like he told me he was.

So now, his grieving starts & hopefully it will all be over soon. I feel that this will give us a chance since she will truly be out of the picture now.

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Is your h in high school? This sounds like a stunt a 16 year old would play...and yet, instead of laughing it off..your H gets mad and jealous.

Sorry, but IMHO, there is something going on here that you are not aware of.

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Lost, I got a similar phone call while FWH and I were in our first "recovery". It was from OW's best friend basically telling my husband to back off... quit sending flowers, driving by, etc. He was extremely defensive about it and somewhat embarrassed. I was shocked, I had no idea. I thought things were better.

Are you SURE there's been no contact?


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In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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That seems pretty strange that someone would call you about things like that.

Have you been "trusting but verifying"? You said you believed that he isn't seeing her, what makes you believe that? (I'm not saying you're wrong). I'd be very suspicious about these calls. Someone was certain that you would care about this information .... maybe it was OW trying one last ditch attempt at getting through to your H, or maybe it was someone trying to let you know that things between your H and OW aren't as cooled off as they seem. Either way, I think I'd want to figure that out. Do you have caller ID? Who knows your phone number?


As for your H's reaction .... I'm amazed by it, in that way I'm amazed by all WS actions, but am not really sure that it's entirely abnormal. My H works with another WH who'd had a long term A arond the same time as my H's. Took that guy longer to get his act together, but he finaly did and has been working on recovering his M. But then the OW started dating another (single) guy on his crew. He's furious and there is so much tension on his crew that even the big bosses who normally don't care about those things are trying to figure out what to do about it. It just got worse when the new guy moved in with the OW.

I have all kinds of rational thoughts about it -- and I'm sure you do, too .... I thought "what right does he have to be jealous? As if she's cheating on him -- HE was the one who was cheating! HE has a WIFE -- he doesn't get to be mad that SHE has someone, too! Was he hoping to keep her on the side, an alternate option in case things at home didn't work out? Jacka$$!!! ..... "

lol ... Apparently, I thought a lot of things, and they could probably apply to your H, too.

But my guess is that the reaction is kind of a residual of the fantasy. A by-product of the fact that he hasn't totaly committed to your M yet, and hasn't gone through withdrawl and still feels like a victim. Poor him. His girlfriend isn't available to him anymore, and she might not be all that he thought she was and his little fantasy world just keeps crumbling around his ears. I'm sure that's no fun, and probably makes it easy for him to be depressed and mean and angry -- and guess who's in the way when he feels those things.

Remember, that's not about you. Not your responsibility to fix it or take care of it.

But I would do some investigating about those calls and start confirming where he's been and what he's been up to.

-AmI.

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pm,

Yes I'm sure there's been NC as far as physical. She has been getting messages to him through people at work. But the two people who are her very good friends, wouldn't tell him anything about her or her about him.

He told me last night that hearing that vmail made him realize he still loves her. He said it felt like someone was tearing his heart out, throwing it on the ground & stomping on it. I told him I have been feeling that way for a year now & that he is finally feeling what I've been feeling.

He lost his job yesterday. Why? Because he was so angry about her that he let his attitude show & it got him in trouble. They are accepting his resignation today since he'd been warned before about his attitude. He's lost, threatening suicide (I called his mother & had her come over last night because I wasn't home), convinced he will never find another job.

BTW, he should know something definite about the job in Ft. Worth today. He called yesterday & his friend there told him he would get an answer for him today. I hope it comes through.

He sent OW a text last night telling her he would never get over her & would always love her. I feel I can't compete. I told him this morning that no matter what happens job-wise, he needs to decide who he wants with him through this ordeal & on the other side. I told him my heart & soul can't take much more of his wanting me when he's in trouble & then turning his back on me when the trouble's gone.

I also told him he needs to pick his a$$ up off the floor. He's down but not out & he needs to quit trying to convince himself he's a loser. When he told me last night he'd lost everything, I told him he still had me. I told him this morning that we could have a wonderful marriage, that I believed we could, we just had to pick up & go on from here. But he had decisions to make.

My heart & soul can't take much more before it's broken, probably irreparably as far as he's concerned. Yeah, I'm down about the loss of income. But he's always been able to find a job before & I have no doubt he will again. He told me if this job in Ft. Worth doesn't pan out, he will go to Colorado on Monday to stay with his stepmom until he finds a job. I told him that was great, I supported him on that & I would find us a place to live there as soon as he found a job. But I know he may decide to walk out of my life because of this & I'm ok with that, too. I can go on & build a life without him.

I'm just in a wait & see mode now. I told him this morning I would stand by him no matter what happens for as long as he wants me there. That I'd always been there, he just couldn't see me.

He asked me last night how you could tell if God was talking to you. I told him "you know the verse that says Be still & know that I am God." yeah, he said. He's saying that you have to be still & listen, don't say anything, just be still & listen. Be quiet & hear what He's saying. I told him God has been talking to him, he just didn't want to hear what He was saying because it wasn't what he wanted to hear. That God doesn't always tell us what we want to hear but we have to listen anyway.

Pray for us. I'll update as soon as I know anything.

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AmIok,

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That seems pretty strange that someone would call you about things like that.

Have you been "trusting but verifying"? You said you believed that he isn't seeing her, what makes you believe that? (I'm not saying you're wrong). I'd be very suspicious about these calls. Someone was certain that you would care about this information .... maybe it was OW trying one last ditch attempt at getting through to your H, or maybe it was someone trying to let you know that things between your H and OW aren't as cooled off as they seem.


I thought so too. But I think it was a last ditch effort by her or some of her friends to cause trouble between he & I. But it could have also been a way for someone to open his eyes & make him see what she really was & get him to finally move on. He called her yesterday morning & chewed her out about it because he was hurt. Now he knows how I feel.


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I have all kinds of rational thoughts about it -- and I'm sure you do, too .... I thought "what right does he have to be jealous? As if she's cheating on him -- HE was the one who was cheating! HE has a WIFE -- he doesn't get to be mad that SHE has someone, too! Was he hoping to keep her on the side, an alternate option in case things at home didn't work out? Jacka$$!!! ..... "


Yeah, this is exactly what I thought, word for word, LOL. I mentioned that to him, that he was mad & hurt because he thought she would be waiting if he decided it wouldn't work out with us. He tried to tell me he didn't think so. But he still doesn't have the guts to walk out of my life, I don't think.


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But my guess is that the reaction is kind of a residual of the fantasy. A by-product of the fact that he hasn't totaly committed to your M yet, and hasn't gone through withdrawl and still feels like a victim. Poor him. His girlfriend isn't available to him anymore, and she might not be all that he thought she was and his little fantasy world just keeps crumbling around his ears. I'm sure that's no fun, and probably makes it easy for him to be depressed and mean and angry -- and guess who's in the way when he feels those things.

Remember, that's not about you. Not your responsibility to fix it or take care of it.


Again, my thoughts exactly. And I'm not trying to fix it this time, or I don't think I am. I'm just letting him know that I will be there if he wants me & that we can re-build our lives & make them better. My MIL says he's not really mad at me, though he acts like he is, that he's taking it out on me because I'm there. And she's right. I'm so glad she could come over last night. Even if nothing she said got through to him, she at least tried to help him.

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He told me last night that hearing that vmail made him realize he still loves her. He said it felt like someone was tearing his heart out, throwing it on the ground & stomping on it.
....
He lost his job yesterday. Why? Because he was so angry about her that he let his attitude show & it got him in trouble.
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He's lost, threatening suicide (I called his mother & had her come over last night because I wasn't home), convinced he will never find another job.
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He sent OW a text last night telling her he would never get over her & would always love her.
....

Ya know, Lost .... all this stuff combined with the phone calls and the questionable contact issue and now he's even losing his job over her .....
I guess it could all be chalked up to withdrawl, but for me, personally (and I don't know if this would fit into MB timing or not), I would be done.

There may be some people who would cut him more slack because of the depression issue .... but he's not even bothering to treat that. He's voluntarily swiming into the throat of a massive whirlpool, and trying to drag you downwith him, blaming you all the way.

How much longer are you willing to go along with it?

His whole attitude says "poor me, the world conspires against me and I have no control and am forced into situations and actions by my evil wife, evil OWH, evil bosses .....blah blah blah". It's the tantrum of a two year old and it's gone on for way too long.

Wasn't he just riding you not too long ago about not contributing enough financially to the family .... and now he goes out and completely loses his income, much less insurance and whatever other benefits the job provided?


Like I said, I don't know if it's very MB, but if it were me, I'd be at the point where he would need to show some serious effort in order to keep me around. I'm sick of hearing your H whine, and I only hear the snippets you post. I can't imagine how you're staying sane.

You said "My heart & soul can't take much more before it's broken, probably irreparably as far as he's concerned. " If you think you're on the verge of losing your love for him, then I think it's time for Plan B. Protect the last bits of your heart and soul, and let him prove that he's worth something all on his own.

Hopefully PM or a more experienced MB'er will chime in and give you a more educated opinion. I'll give you mine, but I don't think it lines up well with the conventional wisdom around here.

I'd tell him something like "I think you have great potential, and I still believe in you. I still believe that we could have a wonderful life together, and there's nothing I want more than to have that great M with you. If you decide that you want to contribute to recovering this family and marriage, then I'm all in. But that takes two of us and right now, you're so mired in your depression and self pitty that you're dead weight. I'm not going to keep letting you drag me down into the muck with you. I'm chosing a happy, fulfilled life. You can come along if you want or you can keep bogging yourself down deeper in the mud. Either way, it's your choice."

And then I'd go about doing whatever you have to do to be happy. By yourself. Without him. Get the house sold, get into a job you like, or just become fantastic at the job that you have, find some long lost friends, find your old hobbies, remmeber what things you used to do that brought you joy. Do whatever you need to do to get yourself out of that pit. You can't drag him along with you -- he has to decide that for himself. But you can show him the way by getting your own self out.

Quit having relationship discussions with him, quit worrying about OW, quit worrying about what he's doing or where he is. Quit being his parent and let himmake his own decisions. And just to protect your own heart, I'd just assume he's in full A mode.

Keep meeting his needs -- house clean, dinner cooked, pack his lunch, etc.,. Be pleasant and cheerful and happy and fun and as detached as you can possibly be. If he brings up the relationship or OW or anything more serious than "how's the weather", I'd just say "I'll be happy to discuss that with you when you're fully committed to recovering our mariage. Want some tea?" Or "I'm really not up to discussing that right now. I'm off to met the girls for coffee. See you later."

Make him start putting the effort in. It's time for him to be useful -- either by actually helping or by getting the dead weight off your shoulders.

Sort of a pre-plan B. And then I'd do a real Plan B as soon as he takes the job in Ft. Worth or Colorado.


That's just my opinion, and I've said lots of times that I'm not a pro. But there's got to be a point where he has the chance to stand up and be a man -- or choose not to -- and either way, you don't have to keep being weighed down anymore.

-AmI.

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Ya know, Lost .... all this stuff combined with the phone calls and the questionable contact issue and now he's even losing his job over her .....
I guess it could all be chalked up to withdrawl, but for me, personally (and I don't know if this would fit into MB timing or not), I would be done.

I must agree.

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There may be some people who would cut him more slack because of the depression issue

I don't know that he's dealing with depression so much as acute narcissism - the "it's all about me" syndrome.

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He's voluntarily swiming into the throat of a massive whirlpool, and trying to drag you downwith him, blaming you all the way.

Yep.

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How much longer are you willing to go along with it?

What's going on now isn't good for you, and it isn't good for him. It's not very MB of me, but I can't help but feel that you might be better off without your WH as the albatross around your neck.

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Like I said, I don't know if it's very MB, but if it were me, I'd be at the point where he would need to show some serious effort in order to keep me around.


Yepper, reached that point. Told him I wasn't going to let him drag me down & he had some serious decisions to make. When he asked me what he should do, I told him I wouldn't make the choices for him, he had to do that but that if he wanted a life & marriage with me, he had to decide to do it & start making the effort. I told him we could have a good life together but not as long as he kept crying about OW.


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and now he goes out and completely loses his income, much less insurance and whatever other benefits the job provided?


Yesterday, he was kicking himself in the a$$ for doing something so stupid. We lost everything, insurance, income, 401K, company stock. He asked me why he had to go open his mouth & do somthing like that. I told him because he was angry about something he had no right to be angry about & he let his alligator mouth overload his mockingbird a$$. He said he wasn't angry but hurt. And he says he's hurt because she cheated on him so he don't trust women anymore.

This morning he wasn't going to get out of bed, gonna lay there & die. I jumped up, said fine, I don't need you to do what I want to do today & you can lay there in your little hog wallow of poor, poor me if he wanted to. I was mad. He got up right after I did & came to help me. I told him when he left to go to his mother's, that he needed to ask her what she thought about a man who was crying about being cheated on by a woman he'd broken off a relationship with & who didn't belong to him in the first place. I told him I was upset that he was whining about her cheating on him when they weren't even together, he'd told her it was over & not to wait on him & he was still married to me. He admitted I was right & I'm letting him stew on that for a while.

I don't want to hear how she cheated on him & he can't trust her now because of it. So What!!!! Big Deal!!!! They had ended their relationship.

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I'd tell him something like "I think you have great potential, and I still believe in you. I still believe that we could have a wonderful life together, and there's nothing I want more than to have that great M with you. If you decide that you want to contribute to recovering this family and marriage, then I'm all in. But that takes two of us and right now, you're so mired in your depression and self pitty that you're dead weight. I'm not going to keep letting you drag me down into the muck with you. I'm chosing a happy, fulfilled life. You can come along if you want or you can keep bogging yourself down deeper in the mud. Either way, it's your choice."


Yeah, I basically told him this. Basically told him he had to decide who he wanted with him through this whole ordeal. He got upset with me for chewing on him yesterday. But I was tired of hearing how stupid he was. It's done & it could be alot worse. I sent him a text that said "God is trying to tell you something. You need to listen & accept what He wants you to do instead of thinking you can do it on your own. How many 2X4's does He have to hit you with before you learn?" When he asked how it could be worse, I reminded him of the car wreck our DD#2 had in December, that God was telling us then that he had the power to give & to take away & it could all be gone in the blink of an eye. That he could be facing a life without a daughter & the house could burn down tonight & we could lose everything & have nothing but ashes, so what would he do then? Lay down & let it defeat him? I won't, I'll pick up & move on. He couldn't believe I said it.

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Make him start putting the effort in. It's time for him to be useful -- either by actually helping or by getting the dead weight off your shoulders.


Yep because it could always be worse than it is. My wrecking my car could have been God's way of getting us out of that payment because He knew this was coming. The Ft. Worth job could come up at any time & I would go with him anywhere on this earth as long as he wants to make a life with me & I told him that. I think God let this happen to wake him up & give us the opportunity to start over somewhere else.

Everywhere I turn here, I find out about something else he did that was humiliating to me, such as taking OW to a baseball game last season in front of DD#2's classmates & the parents who've known us for years. I want to get away from all that, start fresh somewhere that nobody knows what happened.

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Keep meeting his needs -- house clean, dinner cooked, pack his lunch, etc.,. Be pleasant and cheerful and happy and fun and as detached as you can possibly be.


Not gonna stop because that's what the MB plan says I should do. But I'm also not going to sit around whining about his lost job. He did this to himself, all on his own because of something he had no business being upset about. He's a big boy & I told him that he's been out of his mind for a year now & it's caused him to make some bad decisions. But I also told him that when you make a mistake, it's not the mistake but how & if you correct it that matters. I've asked myself & friends who've been in similar sitch's, why it is that they make such fools of themselves over a piece of you-know-what.

The things he claims she did for him, I had been doing for years & still did as much as he would let me. So there was really nothing new there except a new face (which has been described to me as looking like a man).

I told him this morning I'm not going to sit around crying because he's feeling sorry for himself. He said he's disappointed in himself & I told him he should be but he's the only one who can change his life now. That if he really wants to he can become someone he'd be proud to know & make sure he don't disappoint himself again.

I have not told him he shouldn't have done what he did. Just agreed with him when he said it. I told him it didn't matter what had happened, we would make it through if we did it hand in hand & worked together.

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I guess it could all be chalked up to withdrawl,


Yeah, I think it could be. I don't think he ever went into withdrawal because he thought that OW would be there waiting if it didn't work out with me. Which is why I don't think he's put much effort into us. I'm gonna wait a little longer & see which way the wind blows.

Am I upset about the job? Yeah, kinda. The loss of income & insurance will be the hardest part. But since he will finally be away from the place that daily reminds him of & makes him miss OW, I'm really happy that he lost it.

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What's going on now isn't good for you, and it isn't good for him.


I know it isn't good for me, but maybe it is good for him. Maybe this is what he needs to put things in perspective & help him make his decisions. As of 9 a.m. today, I'm not gonna give in to his feeling sorry for himself because he was being an idiot. He can whine all he wants to himself. I ain't gonna listen to it anymore. I asked him why he can't ever look for the good in anything & that I'm tired of being his cheerleader every time something goes wrong. I told him he needs to pull himself up by his boot straps & decide where he's going from here. And if that's sleeping your life away, fine, I got other things to do.

Sometimes God uses a pine tree to get his point across. I think that pine tree just fell square on WH's head. Pretty hard to avoid now, huh?

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Sounds like he is depressed. I think I would talk to his mom and see if she can get him to go to the doc for some anti-D's. Otherwise he is in kind of a downward spiral. It is hard just to pick yourself up and get over all this stuff. I know a lot of folks here won't agree.

As far as the OW cheating, THAT is what she is, a cheater. No surprise there. If her husband committing suicide didn't make her take a minute to examine her choices, nothing else will either.

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Read through this thread & have to say that your H WAS still seeing the OW through all of this. That balogney about him going through withdrawal the whole time is just that. He was still seeing her. Why else would he say "she's cheating on me"? Because they're together as a couple! He's in a depression now b/c he realizes that she's a player, always has been & he got duped. Sounds like my FWH. The reality is that you cannot recover your M when he's like this. You're not even considered reconciled yet. Yeah, he may be living in the same house, but you're worlds apart. He still has his head up his a$$.

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I sent him a text that said "God is trying to tell you something. You need to listen & accept what He wants you to do instead of thinking you can do it on your own. How many 2X4's does He have to hit you with before you learn?"


Don't make the same mistake I did. Please don't try to talk to him about God. He isn't hearing him & he thinks you're preaching to him. Only God can convict him of his actions. Let Him do His job all on His own.

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But he still doesn't have the guts to walk out of my life, I don't think.


You're right. He doesn't. But do you have the guts to walk away from him? I'm not saying permanently but temporarily until he gets the help he needs. I agree w/the others. He is dragging you down w/him in his own mess he created. You need to stand up for yourself & not let your spirit get dragged down w/him. This whole thing of him wanting to be on his own, do his own thing, not answering to anybody is for SINGLE people. Not MARRIED people. YOu answer to each other b/c you have another person who is involved in your life now - their feelings get taken into consideration & their thoughts. You work as a team. What he wants is to do his own thing & when things don't work out or he comes crawling cause he needs you, he wants you to be there to pick up the pieces. I'm talking from experience here. My H was the exact same way. He wanted to do his "own thing" but at the same time, he wanted me there as a "friend" to unleash his feelings on & for me to pat him on the back & say "there, there". Until I walked away from HIM, he didn't realize that he actually wanted me in his life & that I was the best friend he always wanted. Until I had the guts to say "stop!" he kept walking all over my heart.

Please don't make the same mistakes I did. It's funny how when you walk away from THEM, how they come running after you b/c they don't want to get left behind.


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believer,

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Sounds like he is depressed. I think I would talk to his mom and see if she can get him to go to the doc for some anti-D's. Otherwise he is in kind of a downward spiral. It is hard just to pick yourself up and get over all this stuff. I know a lot of folks here won't agree.

As far as the OW cheating, THAT is what she is, a cheater. No surprise there. If her husband committing suicide didn't make her take a minute to examine her choices, nothing else will either.


He is on anti-D's. His mother is talking to him & telling him to make his choices. She thinks sometimes he isn't listening but he is.

I don't consider it cheating if she was told to go on with her life & he's angry about someone who didn't belong to him in the first place.

He came home last night from the deer lease & I thought maybe he'd made a choice & was going to stick with it. He said he wanted to stay with me & be with me. I told him we could make it work together.

This morning, he gets a text message & gets all "you were snooping over my shoulder" on me, says he erased it without reading it & he doesn't know who it was from. I think he's lying & won't tell me.

ST,

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Read through this thread & have to say that your H WAS still seeing the OW through all of this.


I don't believe he was seeing her but he was still in contact with her through text messages, vmail & through people he worked with. She was getting messages to him that way. Don't know if he's truly in withdrawal right now or not. Still lying to me & hiding things from me.

So I sent him a text this morning, after we got into it. "I'm sorry. Maybe you should just leave me alone until you get a job and your ready to work on a life with me."

He told me during all this that things were changing. Then he told me he was so down about his job that he wasn't worried about anything but that right now, that the other stuff he wasn't thinking about. He said after he gets a job, he will start working on other things, himself first.

I hope he really means it.

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Don't make the same mistake I did. Please don't try to talk to him about God. He isn't hearing him & he thinks you're preaching to him. Only God can convict him of his actions. Let Him do His job all on His own.

As far as this goes, I'm just going with what he's been asking me, like "How can you tell when God is talking to you?" He's been bringing up God lately.


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The reality is that you cannot recover your M when he's like this. You're not even considered reconciled yet. Yeah, he may be living in the same house, but you're worlds apart. He still has his head up his a$$.


Yeah, so far up it he won't see daylight for days. I don't considered us reconciled until he starts putting effort into us. He told me last night he was ready to leave, go somewhere else & start fresh. I told him I was ready, too. That if he wanted to go to Colorado, go, find a job & I would take care of things here & come up there & find us a place to live, after he got a job. He's gonna call his stepmom to ask her if he can stay with her until he finds something. But since she just got laid off from her job, I'm not sure he can stay with her. We'll talk to her today & see.


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You're right. He doesn't. But do you have the guts to walk away from him? I'm not saying permanently but temporarily until he gets the help he needs. I agree w/the others. He is dragging you down w/him in his own mess he created.


I'm not gonna let him drag me down. I'm trying to get along & when he leaves to find a job somewhere else, I don't intend to call him or talk to him for awhile. I might if he calls me but I won't put any effort into contacting him. As much as I still love him, I can't do this to myself anymore.

I told him last night that I was not going to follow & live with a man who wasn't interested in building a life with me & didn't want me with him. He had to make a choice sooner or later & the sooner the better. I told him, "you said you're heart had been stomped on, how many times are you gonna stomp on mine?"


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What he wants is to do his own thing & when things don't work out or he comes crawling cause he needs you, he wants you to be there to pick up the pieces.


I told him that Friday. I told him that he wanted me when he was in trouble but that when the trouble's gone, he turns his back on me. I told him I wasn't gonna go through that anymore. He had to want me when there wasn't any trouble in his life.

He erased numbers of former co-workers from his phone yesterday. I don't know if he erased OW's but I hope he did. I haven't checked. I hope he's truly done with her, but I'm not sure. I hope he meant what he said last night about wanting to be with me.

This morning he said that I should see the look on my face, that it was evil. Yeah, I said, because I'm so pi$$ed that you're still hiding things from me. Did you not understand that working things out between us meant no more secrets & separate lives? His answer, I guess not.

After he left the house, I sent the text. He'll be home in a little while & we'll see how things go.

I'm pretty sure I was LB'ing. I was hurt. I shouldn't have done it. I wanted to believe he was finally telling me the truth. Fooled again!!!!


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Until I walked away from HIM, he didn't realize that he actually wanted me in his life & that I was the best friend he always wanted. Until I had the guts to say "stop!" he kept walking all over my heart.

Please don't make the same mistakes I did. It's funny how when you walk away from THEM, how they come running after you b/c they don't want to get left behind.


I don't think I've found out how to get the strength to do this yet. And how did you know your H was finally in & out of withdrawal & recovery was possible? Do they say it or do they show it?

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I don't consider it cheating if she was told to go on with her life & he's angry about someone who didn't belong to him in the first place.


It is considered cheating when his thoughts/feelings are on someone else & not on his wife where they should be. Of course, that's just my personal opinion, although I'm sure a lot would agree here. Remember emotional affair?

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I don't believe he was seeing her but he was still in contact with her through text messages, vmail & through people he worked with.


Contact is contact is contact. I don't know how many times I had to drill this into my H's brain. I always said to him, "What about NC do you NOT understand?" No contact MEANS no contact! As long as there's contact, there is STILL an A. Doesn't matter if they sleep together or not.

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As far as this goes, I'm just going with what he's been asking me, like "How can you tell when God is talking to you?" He's been bringing up God lately.


Sorry about that. I got the impression that you were bringing it up. As long as he asks, then yes, be honest & tell him those things.

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He erased numbers of former co-workers from his phone yesterday. I don't know if he erased OW's but I hope he did. I haven't checked. I hope he's truly done with her, but I'm not sure. I hope he meant what he said last night about wanting to be with me.

This morning he said that I should see the look on my face, that it was evil. Yeah, I said, because I'm so pi$$ed that you're still hiding things from me. Did you not understand that working things out between us meant no more secrets & separate lives? His answer, I guess not.


Your H needs to get it through his head that being held accountable for his actions & in order to prove trustworthiness, he needs to follow through w/whatever he has said he's going to do. It is not "snooping" when you check on him. Be honest & tell him that you are going to go through his cell phone. That he is going to have to copy you on e-mails, things like that. It IS secrecy when he doesn't want you looking in his cell phone. "A man who has nothing to hide, hides nothing." If he's untrustworthy, which he is, then he needs to prove that he can be trusted. And this takes time. If he was robbed, would he automatically trust a known thief w/his things w/o checking up on him to make sure he didn't steal anything? Of course not. Same applies.

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And how did you know your H was finally in & out of withdrawal & recovery was possible? Do they say it or do they show it?


After my H moved back home, her name didn't get mentioned until I would bring her name up. After the 1st year of "recovery", he tried to contact her. I fumed. So apparently he had been thinking about her. After that fiasco, he no longer tried to contact her. He concentrated on spending time w/me, communicating w/me, going to MC, & one day out of the blue he told me he loved me first when we were getting ready to hang up the phone when he was going to work. He had made it very clear that he wasn't going to say ILY to me until he was sure that he meant it. I knew then that he meant it. He was also showing it though. He was finally interested in ME. He in turn & even now has become very clingy to me. He stares at me. He laughs w/me. He rubs my hand when we're sitting there on the couch. He asks me to go for walks all the time. We hold hands. We walk arm in arm sometimes. He SHOWS it. Actions always speak louder than words. Love is an action, it is not a feeling. Feelings come after the action. Read Corinthians Chapter 13. It describes what love looks like. That's how I knew.

Recovery is an ongoing process. I look back now & realize that we have recovered from this infidelity nightmare, however, the work continues. In order to not follow in those patterns again, we developed this new lifestyle, new way of relating to each other that is for life. Not just for a while until the "feelings" come back. That's why I say it's an ongoing process. In order to be "in love" as some say for a lifetime, it requires the ACTION of love daily.


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Lost,

You were not in recovery. Why? Because there has been contact, whether indirect, direct, physical, non-physical. As long as there is contact of any kind, the affair is still on. You and he cannot begin to heal until there is absolutely NO contact of any kind. Why not prepare a list of things that you REQUIRE (your boundaries) before going any further. Be prepared to enforce those boundaries. The first thing should be no contact, and then he needs to write a “no contact” letter to her, with your approval, and then hand it to YOU to mail. There should be 100% transparency. No secrets.

I know exactly how you’re feeling about your WH’s feelings for OW. My husband mourned his 1st OW after I took him home and nursed him back to health after his car accident. I thought they were over because he left my house one day and said he had to see her to “tell her it was over.” Boy, was I gullible. It was a few months after that, that I received the phone call about him more or less stalking her.

OK, here’s a gentle 2x4. You are not helping your husband. I know you’re hurt but you’re behaving exactly like I did when my husband came home the first time. I was awful to him. BUT I was so angry (that was my excuse). If you really want to follow MB’s (proven) plans, then you need to stop LBing him. He NEEDS you right now. He has hit bottom. Do you step on him while he’s down or do you take this opportunity to be the loving wife you are? Learn to bite your tongue. You know he’s done you wrong. We know he’s done you wrong. Even WH knows. But you can’t force him to act or do ANYTHING. I thought I could and it backfired big time. You can only enforce your own boundaries. (2x4 over)

IF your husband is sincere about wanting to stay with you then he’ll respect your requirements. Oh, and BTW, your WH moving away without you right now is a BAD move. Don’t you know that in the state he’s in right now the chances are high that he will continue contact with OW or even find another OW?

He’s at the bottom right now (or as my DH likes to say, he's eating dirt). Reach out lovingly and offer your hand. If he wants to take it, let him know it’s there when he needs it. Constantly lift him up in prayer. Ask God to put people in his path that will help him get back to God, his family and you.


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I don't consider it cheating if she was told to go on with her life & he's angry about someone who didn't belong to him in the first place.


It is considered cheating when his thoughts/feelings are on someone else & not on his wife where they should be. Of course, that's just my personal opinion, although I'm sure a lot would agree here. Remember emotional affair?


Sorry, my bad. I didn't say it so anyone could understand what I meant. I do that sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I meant that I don't consider her cheating on him when she was told to go on with her life. As for him, yeah, he was still caught up in the A.


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Contact is contact is contact. I don't know how many times I had to drill this into my H's brain. I always said to him, "What about NC do you NOT understand?" No contact MEANS no contact! As long as there's contact, there is STILL an A. Doesn't matter if they sleep together or not.


I told him the same thing. I told him that just because they weren't seeing each other didn't mean it was over if they were still communicating. You'd think he'd get it by now, which BTW, I think he finally has after this last fiasco.

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A man who has nothing to hide, hides nothing." If he's untrustworthy, which he is, then he needs to prove that he can be trusted.


Same thing I told him yesterday. I said that if he didn't have anything to hide, he wouldn't think I was snooping. I was looking over his shoulder, what did he think, I couldn't see?????

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Your H needs to get it through his head that being held accountable for his actions & in order to prove trustworthiness, he needs to follow through w/whatever he has said he's going to do.


He is so down on himself right now. But I think he finally got the picture.

Yesterday, after he came home, I went to him, held him & told him we would make it somehow. I've been trying to cheer him up & keep him going. It's hard to do since he's trying to convince himself he's lost everything. I reminded him last night that he still had me & we would get through this.

Yeah, he's kicking himself in the keister right now. But I told him there was no use crying about it now, what's done is done & we need to pick up & go on. I've told him I would be there for him.


He told me last night he didn't know what he'd do without me. This after I helped him with changes on his resume. I told him he could've done it & he said no that he was glad I was there. This morning, like a little kid, he told me on the phone, "I wish you were here." I know he needs help with job hunting but I still have to work & do as much as I can. He says now he's glad he didn't let me go.

He's being more affectionate but I chalk that up to the sitch & not recovery. He's always been that way, needing touch when he's down. I don't mind. He needs to know I'm there in a way she never could be.


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You were not in recovery. Why? Because there has been contact, whether indirect, direct, physical, non-physical. As long as there is contact of any kind, the affair is still on. You and he cannot begin to heal until there is absolutely NO contact of any kind.


On that, you are on the mark. I had hoped we were but I can see now we weren't. Since all this happened, maybe after the job sitch clears up, we can really begin to recover.

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OK, here’s a gentle 2x4. You are not helping your husband. I know you’re hurt but you’re behaving exactly like I did when my husband came home the first time. I was awful to him. BUT I was so angry (that was my excuse). If you really want to follow MB’s (proven) plans, then you need to stop LBing him. He NEEDS you right now. He has hit bottom. Do you step on him while he’s down or do you take this opportunity to be the loving wife you are? Learn to bite your tongue. You know he’s done you wrong. We know he’s done you wrong. Even WH knows. But you can’t force him to act or do ANYTHING. I thought I could and it backfired big time. You can only enforce your own boundaries. (2x4 over)


Appreciate the 2X4. After he left yesterday, I realized I need to stop thinking about me & get him & us through this mess. So, I've started building him up. And when he tries to lay down & cry on me, I make him get up & move & do something positive for the sitch. Like yesterday evening, I got him on the internet looking for jobs & made him go to the grocery store with me so he would get out of the house for a while. We went by my office & updated his resume before we came home. I'm trying to hold this family together, like I have in the past. I told him last night that he'd said that in the past when he was without a job, he felt like he was all alone. I told him he wasn't alone but I felt like I was the only one trying to hold this family together & keep everyone going, that I didn't feel like I got any help from anyone. He said he's alone now, but I reminded him that he has me & he's not alone & I'm just as affected by this as he is. We'll get through this together, we always have.


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IF your husband is sincere about wanting to stay with you then he’ll respect your requirements. Oh, and BTW, your WH moving away without you right now is a BAD move. Don’t you know that in the state he’s in right now the chances are high that he will continue contact with OW or even find another OW?


The reason for this is he can go to Colorado & stay with family until he gets a job. As for the Ft. Worth job, if that comes through, (which I think it will) he will have to go through a 6 month probation period before he's considered hired. He is still being considered for a position there. And if he goes to Ft. Worth, I'll be with him every minute I can. If he goes to Colorado, the same. Right now, it's important to him to know that I will go with him without question. I want to get away from here. I want to go where no one knows whats happened & we can make a fresh start. I can't quit my job until he gets another one.

Yeah, I'm afraid that the possibility exists for another A. But I feel that staying with his family will lessen the possibility because they'll know what he's doing, especially if he stays with his stepmom.

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He’s at the bottom right now (or as my DH likes to say, he's eating dirt). Reach out lovingly and offer your hand. If he wants to take it, let him know it’s there when he needs it. Constantly lift him up in prayer. Ask God to put people in his path that will help him get back to God, his family and you.


Even he says he's hit bottom. I'm doing the best I can with a bad sitch. Again, I feel like everybody's cheerleader but no one's here to cheer for me. I feel I don't have anyone to turn to because I can't let him see my fears & depression. I do have a friend who will listen but I hate constantly going to her when she probably has her own problems.

Thanks for the advice & for listening. I'll keep coming here to vent & get bad feelings out so I don't let them out on anybody.

This time, I truly hope he has realized what he's done & needs to do from now on. I know the sitch could be worse. I keep looking up & praying it doesn't get any worse.

Thanks for the prayers, time & 2X4's!!!!

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,710
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,710
Lost,

I'm sorry if you've mentioned this & I missed it. But how long has your H been on anti-D's? Was he suffering from depression before the A?


RBW (me) FWH lostboyz
Married for 16 years
DDay on 10/10/03
Reconciliation on 2/8/04
Son 17, Twin son & daughter 16
4 years of a strong recovery
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