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anyone that doesn't believe there is "life" before a first breath ***edit****gee...I guess that thing kicking in the belly...or sucking its thumb is dead huh? Neat trick.

To sign your post "Love in Christ" and have such a casual response to the murder of a child is a strange contradiction IMO.

See...people can debate their belief in God since it can't be proven scientifically...the FACT that a child is alive int he womb is not even open for debate.


Nice judgment of me w/o even knowing anything about me. I am pro-life. However, if someone else is pro-choice or someone's religion teaches them that life does not begin until the first breath & they believe that, I have the respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong. If this was not a subject that needed debated, then there wouldn't be any debate anywhere, would there? But there is. We are talking about a 2 week pregnancy or at the most 1 month. There ARE debates about when the life begins. I do agree w/you that abortion (in my own opinion) is murder. But, for me to tell some mother (or father) that she/he is a scumbag b/c they chose that route is insulting & not helpful. In my line of work I have had to learn how to be objective & not bring my own prejudices or beliefs into the help I'm trying to give. If that makes me seem "casual", then so be it. That's all I was trying to point out. I don't think people are being objective.

Let's concentrate on giving Luis the tools to be proactive in his part of the recovery. That's where our life experiences & observations w/infidelity come into play.

TA, I agree w/you. I think Luis needs to do a lot more & stop playing the self-pity card. We hear a lot of "I acted like a fool", "The OW is stalking me". These are consequences from things that YOU chose to participate in, Luis. Please remember that. All the fallout that comes from that is yours to own. The OW did not get "pregnant" by herself. So please, no more the OW's irresponsibilities, whatever you think they are. Let's concentrate on YOUR irresponsibilities. Fix those. You take an active role in fixing the mess you've created.

Thinking,

I agree w/a lot of the things you've said in your post. I do want to point out though that if these are things that Luis has never done before, then him doing it now would be considered change on his part. I'd also like to know what "doing everything I can" means. Luis, what are her emotional needs? Do you even know?

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I do want to point out though that if these are things that Luis has never done before, then him doing it now would be considered change on his part.
Touche` I digress. I don't know Luis well enough to have come to the conclusion I did. Luis, my apologies and gratitude for a job well in progress.

I'm thinking one of Luis' biggest EN is attention....

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I agree w/you there, Thinking. Luis, does this have any truth to it? Be honest.


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if someone else is pro-choice or someones religion teaches them that life does not begin until the first breath & they believe that, I have the respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong. If this was not a subject that needed debated, then there wouldn't be any debate anywhere, would there? But there is. We are talking about a 2 week pregnancy or at the most 1 month. There ARE debates about when the life begins. I do agree w/you that abortion (in my own opinion) is murder.


you stance may be that YOU would not have an abortion...BUT your opinion above is PRO CHOICE. Pro Life people are not tolerant of kids being murdered....see, if you really BELIEVED it was murder then you are choosing to sit back and allow the slaughter of children by saying...well, if that's what they believe... bull chit.

wow..I guess we could take this to anything in the name of religion huh??? Stoning women to death is okay ...even though you wouldn't do it...why...because the koran says it is. What, not okay....why....because it is a woman and not an unborn baby?

Your view makes less sense than that of Luis.

And FTR, it is dead on balls accurate to call a WH that impregnates his affair partner and then suggests, even pressures abortion a "scum bag"...if you can't see that, I would suggest a rectal cranial inversion.

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MEDC... you do enjoy the anatomy classes heh? :-)

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Standing Together: If somebody is 'pro-choice' then what excuse would they have for telling somebody else to go get an abortion? Wouldn't that be an attempt to impose their anti-choice-pro-abortion decision on another? Wouldn't a 'pro-choice' stance be: Whatever you choose I will support your 'right-to-choose'"?

BigK I TOTALLY AGREE: "Exactly where is that convenient "spiritual" belief found? Fleshalonians? Or is it Luis's convenient philosophy 1:1"

Luis, what does that Eastern religion you espouse say about acts of violence against innocent human beings? It is an undisputed scientific fact that unborn babies are both human and alive. BTW, is that the same outdated belief that claims that males become ensouled much sooner than females? Maybe that explains why in India the number of females aborted is much higher than the number of males aborted? And what does your religion say about not taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions? If there is a baby it is because you chose to have sex. Birth control is not 100% effective - one of the facts of life - don't have sex until you know them.

I agree with the advice to stop ALL contact with the OW, get tested for STD's, get a lawyer and mc, report what the OW has done to the police, etc. If there is a baby the OW can contact your lawyer and testing can be done when the baby is born to determine whether or not you are the father.
If you are a father you have a responsibility that you should honor.

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I think what's happening here is that people are taking on their own views of abortion/life/conception & pushing them on Luis. If he feels the way he does, about there not being life w/o the first breath, then that is his belief & he owns it. For us to push our beliefs on him is just the same thing as us saying that adultery is a sin against God to an atheist.

But aren't you similarly taking your own views about "opinions" on abortion and "pushing them on others?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I would point out that you are doing the very thing to which you object but have oddly exempted yourself. If others can be accused of "pushing their own beliefs" on others simply by virtue of expressing them, then you would be guilty of the same thing. If you can dismiss others with that tactic, you can be dismissed the same way, ST.

Secondly, it is not a matter of "opinion" if there is no life until the first breath is taken. It is not a matter of "feelings." That is a matter of FACT. It is either true or false regardless of my "feelings," because reality exists independent of my feelings or my ability to perceive it. We can mindlessly recite pro-abortion bumper stickers til the cows come home but it won't change reality.

Any thinking person can tell you that an unborn human is FULLY ALIVE before it takes that first breath. Otherwise, there would be nothing to kill, no need to abort. That is a simple FACT, not a matter of "opinion." I can "feel" that a baby is a puppy or a mole, but that does not make it reality. It is what it is.

Now, you can try and "push your belief" on us that this is a matter of "opinion," but that doesn't make it so. You also run the risk of having all your thoughts dismissed with the same cheesy tactic.

On the other hand, I think it would be much more honest if you simply addressed the POINTS being made here instead of just dismissing other's opinions as "pushing their beliefs on others."

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For us to push our beliefs on him is just the same thing as us saying that adultery is a sin against God to an atheist.

And here you go again. Adultery IS a sin against God, whether the anyone believes it or not. That is either true or it is FALSE, based on reality. It does not matter who perceives it to be true or not, because perceptions are irrelevant. I think what you are trying to do, ST, is to ACCEPT all views EXCEPT CHRISTIANITY. To you, it is OK for someone to deny that an unborn human is living, but NOT ok for someone to say that it is. That is a double standard with which you have used to dismiss Christians [and other anti-abortionists].

My suggestion is that you stop jumping through these convoluted logical contortions to accommodate ALL VIEWS [except Christianity, of course, which you feel oddly free to dismiss] and focus on accommodating THE TRUTH. It is a hard life being a moral coward, ST, and I say that from long, hard experience. You will get your [censored] run over sitting there in the middle of the road, my friend.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You are both right. I think one of my biggest emotional needs IS attention. I've been exploring the whole thing in therapy, the question of my vulnerability to the OW. One of the answers is that through her I was felt more powerful, more masculine, above the others. I had 12 hours of work 3 times a week (then two 8-hour days), I barely saw my wife and, when we saw each other, it was never smooth. I never fully gave of myself to her. I didn't trust her; I was afraid. I kept secrets.

So this other person at work became an additional supplier of affection. I split the feminine in two: one, motherly and supportive at home and one seductive and moody at work. I grew dependant on that. Now I know this was a distortion and things were not like that at all, but that was my view at the time.

My own weaknesses made me vulnerable. Like big security holes in a computer network.

Changing the topic, I believe the biggest EN my wife has is acceptance. She wants to be accepted for who she is, admired, loved. One of the biggest changes after DD is me giving my undivided attention to her, never blowing her off, never criticizing her for no reason.

The moment I realized my mistake - and then when I told her - I threw caution in the wind. I wouldn't be afraid anymore since I'd faced my worst fear. This is what is driving me forward, seeing the woman I have for a wife clearly and giving her all the love I have.

Luis


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you stance may be that YOU would not have an abortion...BUT your opinion above is PRO CHOICE. Pro Life people are not tolerant of kids being murdered....see, if you really BELIEVED it was murder then you are choosing to sit back and allow the slaughter of children by saying...well, if that's what they believe... bull chit.


MEDC, Pro-life definition -- Advocating full legal protection to embryos. Pro-choice -- advocating for the woman to have the right to choose. I fall in the pro-life category. I do not believe that a woman has the right to choose. However, as I am in a counseling field, I have to SUSPEND my belief system when giving someone the help they ask for. If a client comes to me asking for my counsel, I have to remain objective. I cannot force them to believe the same way I do that life begins at conception & they should do THIS. I can only present them w/what their options are. Arguing w/Luis over whether his belief systems are right or wrong is not helpful or productive.

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And FTR, it is dead on balls accurate to call a WH that impregnates his affair partner and then suggests, even pressures abortion a "scum bag"...if you can't see that, I would suggest a rectal cranial inversion.


Indeed, that may be the way you feel, but calling him names, how exactly is that productive to the discussion except to get something off your chest & make "you" feel better for saying it?


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Luis.... do you read anything we say?
We have asked you one very simple yet fundemental question. You answered, but your list didn't tell us much...it was just a list. So we reworded the question.

We know WHAT actions you are taking, we don't know HOW you are taking them.

You still seem a bit too disengaged to me to believe you really want to fix this. in fact, with your last post that you think your wife's EN is to feel accepted, that makes me wonder if you think you don't have a lot of work to do.

You said you THINK her EN is acceptance. You shouldn't be thinking... you need to find out and KNOW for certain what her ENs are.

Someone else chime in here... I think Luis needs a truckload of 2x4s before it finally sinks in.

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ST - All I can say is thank God I can take a stand against evil without hiding behing moral neutrality.


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I fall in the pro-life category. I do not believe that a woman has the right to choose. However, as I am in a counseling field, I have to SUSPEND my belief system when giving someone the help they ask for. If a client comes to me asking for my counsel, I have to remain objective.

I think, rather, you mean you have to suspend your principles, ST. There is nothing "objective" about moral neutrality and the sacrifice of one's principles. One does not have to sacrifice their principles to have gainful employment in the US.

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Arguing w/Luis over whether his belief systems are right or wrong is not helpful or productive.

Yet you strangely feel it is "productive" and "helpful" to argue over whether MEDC has a right to express his own beliefs. Not sure how that logic works.

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I cannot force them to believe the same way I do that life begins at conception & they should do THIS.

Just as you cannot force MEDC or anyone else here to believe they don't have a right to state the truth, yet you try.

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Indeed, that may be the way you feel, but calling him names, how exactly is that productive to the discussion except to get something off your chest & make "you" feel better for saying it?

Frankly, I find it amazing that you so proactively DEFEND the killing of another human, yet object to namecalling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Do you not find that a little out of balance, ST? And perhaps a little "unproductive?"


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Totally agree Mel.


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Can you guys tell exactly what I am supposed to be doing? I'm really working my hardest to help her heal. Am I missing something basic??


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I think, rather, you mean you have to suspend your principles, ST. There is nothing "objective" about moral neutrality and the sacrifice of one's principles. One does not have to sacrifice their principles to have gainful employment in the US.


That just shows that you no nothing about the MH field. There are boundaries that must be drawn between personal & professional. If I thought personally that this client was doing something I didn't agree with, I can express that opinion however, it is my job to present that client w/all of their options, regardless of whether or not I agree w/those options.

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Frankly, I find it amazing that you so proactively DEFEND the killing of another human, yet object to namecalling. Do you not find that a little out of balance, ST? And perhaps a little "unproductive?"


I have never defended the killing of another human. Luis saying, It's not a human. Me saying, Yes it is. Him saying, No it's not. What on earth does that solve? How exactly does that help his marital situation?

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ST - All I can say is thank God I can take a stand against evil without hiding behing moral neutrality.


I take a stand on plenty in my personal life. Perhaps if I would have come in here w/comments like "Luis, you're a scumbag for even suggesting that", we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


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Luis. You started cheating less than a year into your marriage. You may have been exposed to an STD, and the OW may be pregnant, which you are going to "fix" by an abortion. Meanwhile the OW is still contacting you. On top of that, you aren't working any longer.

Yes, you are missing something basic.

If I were you, I would tell your wife about this site. Maybe we can help her. You seem to be looking for a quick fix, and this mess is going to take years to straighten out.

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ST - THIS IS your personal life here. You are not paid to be here nor am I. What you say is your perogative but I for one won't be lectured by you.


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Your first move would be to get another job. Quickly.

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That just shows that you no nothing about the MH field. There are boundaries that must be drawn between personal & professional. If I thought personally that this client was doing something I didn't agree with, I can express that opinion however, it is my job to present that client w/all of their options, regardless of whether or not I agree w/those options.


Oh, i understand now, it's much more important to put the business income before any morality issues.
After all, you've got a family to feed and so forth. Precisely why most folks don't trust the so called family therapist. They, like you, are all full of [email]sh@@![/email]

You don't even have the moral courage to stand up and state what you believe(or not). Instead, it's all about making the client feel comfortable with you, so they will come back next week and spend another 80 to 120 dollars for your next session.

What a moral copout. You are a couselelors nightmare to most honest folks. Whatever makes them feel good, regardless of the consequences, that's your job, right?

You are Pro Life, until it interfers with your business !

Yep, that's what we morans don't understand about the MH field.
I seriously think that's what a moran C like yourself doesn't understand..

You lack any moral courage at all. Just look in the mirror if you don't believe me.

Sorry folks, I was supposed to diaapear. I couldn't, after this diatribe.

All blessings,
Jerry

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That just shows that you no nothing about the MH field. There are boundaries that must be drawn between personal & professional. If I thought personally that this client was doing something I didn't agree with, I can express that opinion however, it is my job to present that client w/all of their options, regardless of whether or not I agree w/those options.

Yes I do know about the mental health field. I also know that most cause more harm than good by teaching very vulnerable folks to abandon moral principles in favor of the mental illness of moral relativism.

I also know that a principled person does not sacrifice his principles. [or he can't call them principles] Dr. Harley is a licensed psychologist and he most certainly does not remain silent on the subject of abortion or adultery. If anyone should remain silent, it should be those who advocate or condone such evil. It doesn't mean that Dr Harley is unprofessional for stating clearly that both abortion and adultery are evil.

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I have never defended the killing of another human. Luis saying, It's not a human.

You saying............I respect everyones "opinion" no matter how disrespectful or evil. [unless of course they are saying that abortion is wrong]

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I take a stand on plenty in my personal life. Perhaps if I would have come in here w/comments like "Luis, you're a scumbag for even suggesting that", we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Perhaps this would have been convincing if you didn't simply avoid taking a stand against abortion, but CONDONED and justified it as a legitimate difference of opinion.
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"However, if someone else is pro-choice or someone's religion teaches them that life does not begin until the first breath & they believe that, I have the respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong."

Yet you didn't hesitate to take a stand against name calling. I didn't see you jump through hoops to defend name calling like you did abortion. You didn't have the "respect for others to not shove it down his throat that he's wrong" when it concerned name calling. Yet you reserved that respect for someone who was advocating abortion, the killing of an innocent human.

So yes, you do take a stand, but not in defense of any moral standard....except "name calling." This double standard seems to go unnoticed by you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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