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God please help us all through the misery.

See my story here Hopefully entering No contact

Saturday night I threw her a surprise party complete with DJ and a dance instructor because she loves to dance and loves watching Dance With The Stars. Then on Sunday her actual birthday we spent the day watching movies at home in front of the fireplace, then went out to a movie and quick dinner without the kids which was thoroughly enjoyable.

Yesterday I was feeling great cuz my WW had text me this: "I had a great time on my birthday. Thanks Spouse. BTW I found the 3rd card!" (I couldn't decide which one to give her so I gave her all 3)

I had text her back that she deserves it. At home she asked me why I thought she deserved it and I said because in the past I didn't understand what would make her happiest on her birthday which was getting together with family and friends so many times she ended up crying for my lack of effort.

But when I got home last night she was in a depressed mood. She was upset because OM sent text that he filed for divorce. She curled up in a ball in bed and obviously didn't want my comforting. I asked what she said to him in response and she tells me her response was "Sorry to hear that."

So he is still in contact, she won't give up her momentoes, she won't change her cell phone #. So the affair continues. I have done plan A since about 8/15/07. I know it worked because she said she is very angry that I made significant progress only after she fell in love with someone else and angry she has to go through this (which I think meant the pain of withdrawal).

My question is 2 parts. Should I terminate plan A and go to Plan B? Strangely yesterday and today I have a great attitude and I want to continue being here for my 3 children (and her). If my spouse thinks she is under stress now I don't think she has any idea what life will be like without 2 parents in the house to take care of everything kid and chore related. Ours kids are maybe a little more challenging because the oldest is 16 and the youngest is 5 so they are constantly needing different things. Not to mention trying to afford the house on her own.

And if I do plan B how do I do that without leaving my house?? (as so many people on another thread have said for the man who is BS to NOT leave the home.) Please where are the experts? LA, FH, RIF, MB'rs?

I feel like I have been the lighhouse for her long enough, now I am the ship sailing away from my WW. But then again now that I count it out I guess I have done Plan A for only 15 weeks. That isn't as long as I thought. Maybe I should just continue plan A for awhile more.

Me BS 38
Her WW 36
DS 16
DD 13
DS 5
D Day 7/30/07
Plan A 8/15/07
Status: Spouse uncommitted to marriage, affair dying I think, withdrawal very harsh right now

Last edited by bigpicture; 12/03/07 04:15 PM.
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I don't know your story, but I would continue in Plan A for a while longer.

-you are making progress.

-you aren't at the end of your rope.

-it's not going to be easy for you to implement Plan B given the living situation

-continuing with the Plan A will demonstrate your commitment that the changes you have made are permanent and not just to win her back

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Definitely continue Plan A. It is working...

I know it sucks to sit by and watch while she goes through withdrawal from the OM. It does suck. Perhaps now would be a good time to reiterate the need for a new cell #. Soon she may actually realize that contact with the OM only HURTS her.

Your improvements are being noticed. Right now her heart is hard and she's waiting for the other shoe to drop. She doesn't believe that the changes are permanent or even long-term. It will take a little more time...but you do seem to be getting through to her, it seems to be working, even if only a little. That's how it starts. She's not going to wake up one day and suddenly appreciate everything you are doing...it will be gradual...it will be more and more as she realizes that your changes are here to stay. Keep it up!!


Me - BW/FWW
Him - FWH/BH
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Cathy, your back :-). Thanks so much for the encouragement, Cathy, SD and others. Last night we had another major setback. She told me she needed to talk.. told me OM called her and asked her point blank if it was over between them. WW replied "no" to him and then told me she could not see a future without him. Of course I felt like screaming OMG OMG OMG but I didn't lose my cool or panic. Instead we talked. I asked her to estimate how high the stack of books I have read about marriage and relationships and SAA and HNHN and MB.com is? (Its big) I emphasized how much I have learned about us and myself and rededicated my life to learning about God and the bible. I asked her how much stuff she has read. That amounts to pretty much one book, In The Meantime. And then I said the message in that book was good but not exactly profound: acknowledge you have issues or problems, figure out what they are, and change them. She agreed and was shocked I got the message dead on just reading 10 randomn pages in it (Thanks Amazon reviews. Lesson to BSs, read study and learn everything you can so you are one step ahead of WS). I reminded her she said months ago she would read anything I asked her to. I asked her how long it took for her to read that book? 6 weeks. (tv junkie interference). I reminded her that book was recommended by OM so could you please read something I suggest now like SAA?

And then I used SAA to quote a few things like how recovery cannot begin until after withdrawal and that she only had 3 weeks of NC. Then I talked about love banks and how OM's is way up there and mine is way down here and I cannot compete with that especially if she is still talking to him. But that if we could have time together without him in the picture we can meet each others needs and fall in love again. She brought up some things about our past and how are personalities are so different (she is a literal 5 senses and I am more cereberal) and she asked if we are so different why did I still want to be with her. Easy: I said I know I will not be any happier in another relationship, its just different issues and baggage to work out and IF the other person knows what they want, IF they can communicate what they want and if I was willing to meet those needs then there is a chance for love. Just like us. And how we now have it so figured out with each other from all that we have learned through counseling, reading, Weekend To Remember etc. That OM has not had a chance to fail you so of course you cannot see how you could NOT be in love with him.

Then I talked about how she has been getting inspiration from a website (www.tut.com) that simply says thoughts become reality and how I agree with that. That my thoughts and inspirations are improving myself and my marriage and that recovery is possible and that I was making those things a reality by plan A and giving her "agape" love and acting on my goals not my feelings and honoring my vows going forward.

Most importantly after this talk she picked up SAA, read 3 pages and said OMG this is exactly how I am feeling! Bingo, finally something is getting thru the fog. Right before that she said "I feel like I need to make a decision NOW." I didn't say anything to that. I just built a fire for her to read by (warm inviting home). After I took the dog for a jog I found her in bed reading it and when I asked her why she wasn't reading it by the fire she said it made her too emotional and didn't want to cry in front of daughter. That was a good sign I think because the book is hitting home.

I think the OM called her because he was on his way to a vacation on Mexico which the 2 of them thought months ago they would be going on together. I hope she is asking herself why she is not going with him because the answer is probably telling! I think it has to do with Truhearts post (in Notable Posts) about how if WSs were so sure about OP they wouldn't suffer from so much indecision they would just jump ship. I would really like to hear from some WSs on this board who can say their affair worked out long term. Because us BSs would really like to shake you and yell and scream because we know the statistics and we feel self righteous but can't act that way in front of WS. We know that after the affair ends (most likely) you will be left alone, but now with broken heart, broken hearted children and divorce and poorer finances and uprooting family homes and etc etc.

My affair worked out long term?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 11/29/07 07:39 PM
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God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Looking back on Wednesday night, I swear God is working for our marriage because WW did not have to tell me anything about the phone call from OM on Wednesday. She could have never said a word and I would have been oblivious. That admission on her part caused the conversation that we had which caused her to pick up the book SAA and start reading it.

Upon arriving home Friday, despite the family stress from kids, I swear I was getting another miracle: WW was already making chili cheese dip for me. (I had told her a few weeks ago that I love to have that around on the weekends for football games and the likes.) And when I was upstairs she specifically brought me a Reeses peanut butter cup. I thanked her for taking the kids shopping so I could unwind after work in the hottub. I cried upon recognizing the miracle of her making the chili cheese dip for me!

Saturday it got even better. During family time decorating our Christmas tree, she held the mistletoe over my head and gave me a kiss. I am pretty sure God is answering the prayers I have been saying for weeks. Sunday night I got another kiss goodnight. I think the SAA book is getting through to her. I'll keep praying.

Last edited by bigpicture; 12/03/07 04:24 PM.

God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Snooping in wife's email I saw she sent OM pictures of our weekend. Just boring stuff. So still contacting each other. I called her and the conversation was awful. She says she identifies in SAA with Sue except Sue was saying she wants to work on her marriage. My WW told me she is not saying that part. She even recommended OM read SAA. Why the ****** would she want him to do that? She says it so she can see if he is feeling like those people. She keeps saying our past is too much to get over. I just tried to emphasize that their relationship will have problems too once they have to be in the real world and not fantasy land.

She said the reason she is still here with me is because of the great plan A I am doing. Church, fatherhood class, making dinners, trying to get 16 yr old son to NOT fail school etc etc. All the things I am doing in plan A are getting noticed. So how or when do I get the decision from her to commit? What is going to be the tipping point?

I thought there was at least 3 weeks of no contact from 10/28/07 but that only lasted 10 days per her admission today.

The only saving grace if possible, she said she changes her mind minute by minute.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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She says I am now the "perfect" husband she has been hoping for 16 years but its too late. What do I do? I know I shouldn't try to convince her with words. I think she is at the point of deciding to end it because she can't go on like this anymore with us just being roommates and not in love while she is in love with someone else. She is really pissed at me because of my great plan A. What to do?


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BP,

You stay perfect. You keep doing what you're doing. She's fog-talking, sir. She really is...she says she can't see OM not in her life...that's her fantasy feelings talking...not reality.

You're real. Remember you're real. For each contact, are you contacting her accountability relative? Are you addressing as the addiction it is?

Do? Listen and repeat. "I hear you're saying you like my changes and are wishing I'd changed sooner, is that correct?"

No arguing...that's her wishfulness...part of why she chooses to resent, build it into entitlement and justify her attacking the marriage. You can say you know she's attacking the marriage each time you discover contact. Respect that as her choice...respect reality.

Your changes really are about you...share that...how much more you feel gratitude, experience intense awareness of all her acts of love...own who you were and are not now...share the rewards with her going on inside of you. How much YOU regret your previous unawareness and choices...and delight in no longer attacking your marriage through neglect, lack of communication and respect.

Are you loving your own Plan A for who you are today?

There's no tipping point in your control...you bring reality to her and yourself, daily, through your acts of love, in her language, and amending your LBs from the past.

You spend time with your teen, focused, aware, to meet her EN for FC...takes both of you, believe me from my own life, to keep a kid in school.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What helps a lot is applying those same changes in you as a partner to your fathering. You point out the choices he makes, identify some of the consequences and ask him to communicate the consequences he sees or doesn't. You listen and repeat with him, too...bringing reality in much the same way--without LBs, either.

Well-defined boundaries and boundary enforcements...leads to thriving. Acknowledge and validate her feelings, thoughts...her stuff. Same with your son. Separate from actions. You can read your marriage books right beside him while he does his homework...because you're studying because of your heart's desire...highest priority, aren't you?

Recommending SAA and HNHN to OM is typical...more fantasy...avoid the why questions in other people's stuff right now...focus on your own...if you're taking her fantasy as reality, then there's no one left to bring it, is there?

Who can you re-expose to on OM's side? His family and friends? Who needs to know about on-going contact?

You know that all of us get over the past...because it has passed...it's undoable. Why not acknowledge what she says with that statement? "I understand you believe the past is undoable, and I agree. I know that's why we can recover and rebuild our marriage into something we didn't have before. I know that's why we can fall in love with each other again and again."

That's yours...your beliefs, your thoughts...equal to hers, 'k? Stay in reality. You can hear her fantasy-speak if you're listening with your reality ears.

Share the truth of her on-going choice to contact. Her choice to not be transparent...and "I know you're choosing to continue to allow OM's influence on this most important decision in our marriage. If you would shut the door on it, through no contact, and keep it closed for a few months, you would be able to make this decision with clarity."

And her A is harming your teen...you know it, she knows it. Why believe in anything if your own mother won't keep her word? Why try? What's it all for, anyway?

Stay aware...you're doing great not to blame...ease up on the educating...because you're not her parent, you're her partner...share like a partner...about what you learn in those books, read in these threads, share how you're holding it together and why...that's all yours. It's valid. More importantly, real.

LA

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LA,
Thanks for the reply. I guess there is nothing much else I can do for her except wait for her to decide right? My uncle says God answers prayers in 3 ways: Yes, No, or Wait.

My WW prayed years ago for me to become rich with love and appreciation for our family and she had to wait so I guess I can too. tick tock tick tock. I feel like I am on death row waiting for my sentence to be handed down.

Quote
Are you loving your own Plan A for who you are today?
I really am coming from a great place inside me. Like I said in previous posts I wake up asking myself what can I do for my wife or family today? Giving so much and it can be exhausting but its also been rewarding knowing how I am making other people feel. Yesterday a neighbor came over to say thanks for snowblowing out his driveway while he was gone. The greatest part is I wasn't home but my WW was. Perfect 3rd party reinforcement for me.

Quote
Who can you re-expose to on OM's side? His family and friends? Who needs to know about on-going contact?
hmmm. I am debating exposing to OM parents. I read a great thread on exposure and I see the 2 sides. I think the assumptions I am working off are as follows:
1) Exposure will cause WW to be seriously angry, she is already very angry with me, but she is warming up to plan A.
2) MC said in her experience exposure didn't help matters. It only made it permissible for the A to continue now that its in the open. She has specific case of WW bolting upon parents finding out.
3) Harley's say exposure is best weapon.
4) Marriage can withstand temporary anger but not affair.
5) Wife already feels she is at decision point.
6) Last night she FINALLY boxed up OM things and moved them out of house. YEAH!

I actually don't know if OM parents know, I just assumed they found out because of his divorce filing. I am thinking in my case exposure should be last ditch effort, sort of the end of the rope kind of thing. Thoughts anyone?

Quote
For each contact, are you contacting her accountability relative? Are you addressing as the addiction it is?

This is a real problem, designated SIL is not helping much if at all though WW and her are having dinner together tonight.

Quote
Well-defined boundaries and boundary enforcements...leads to thriving.

I am having difficulty setting boundaries. I don't know what they should be! HELP! I guess I should enforce some things like daily email checks but thats not really a boundary. I don't know how to enforce them because I feel the consequences become empty threats. Sure no contact is a boundary but when she does it what do I do besides state my displeasure for her attacking our marriage? If I am committed to the marriage I have no recourse no? At the same time like last Wednesday she admitted phone call from OM so I have some honesty.

Ugh.. still so many pieces to improve on and get right, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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I guess there is one other purpose to plan A that I forgot to mention, its to give God time to work his plan too.

UP: Last Thursday my wife felt like she had her priorities straight (our 3 kids being number 1) and that led to her thinking well of course I should stay married their father (me). So we had a glimmer of hope and on Friday she dropped off all OM things on his doorstep. Yeah. Friday night we went to dinner and she had her wedding ring on which I have not even seen in 3 months. BIGGER YEAH!

DOWN: Saturday was he11 as she experienced severe withdrawal symptoms and was very upset and angry. DOWN: Sunday was ok but it culminated in her telling me some awful A details that she was throwing at me because she was in so much pain of withdrawal. WORST: But last night, Monday, came another incident that I thought might be the death blow for our marriage. She said OM called her, he was about to throw out the stuffed animal he gave her. She couldn't bear that so he delivered it to her. She told me all of this and said "This (our marriage) is not where I want to be anymore. I can't get over our past." The clouds were back and the panic started again for me. I hardly slept all night, instead I prayed for a miracle while at the same time plotting how I was going to move out of the house after Christmas for plan B. My night was awful.

GOD: Today brought another miracle though. All night I had been praying for OM to reveal his true colors to my WW (he and his x had an abortion for selfish reasons, he just recently divorced her and has no kids) and low and behold he sent her an email that said he actually does not want children. We have 3 beautiful kids. All along during the A he told her all kinds of lies saying he looked forward to coming home to her and her children and what a great father he would be etc etc etc.

My WW is way MAD at this guy now. Last night I thought our marriage was over and today its the A that is over. Thank you God.


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Oh, man...BP...for the second time in trying to post to you, my clipboard handed me my last post and didn't remember my long, boring one.

You're saved.

I dunno...poor humor...major frustration. Arrrrggghhhhh.

Time to reboot.

I'll be back.

LA

Last edited by LovingAnyway; 12/18/07 03:36 PM.
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I should have ended my last post with "I think and hope that this new info will be the end of this he**, that A is over finally."

I feel really depressed today because last night we didn't touch or hug at all. We did take our 5 yr old sledding.

She has not ceased talking to him yet. Somewhere around here there is a link to 31 Reasons to End Your Affair. One of the reasons that stuck with me is people usually Affair "down". And I keep praying that my WW will see his true colors, how he condoned an abortion in his own marriage for purely selfish reasons yet all of a sudden his "love" for her makes him want to care for her 3 kids. yeah right! And my wife has always been against abortion but now she is overlooking that in him!?! And overlooking how he bailed out on his first marriage. And now he has verabally said he doesn't want kids! And I think I overheard he had a date. He earns less money.

Love surely must be blind because she cannot see these things that his actions and now his words are not the values she says she has for even herself!

If this has not ended I am ready to move out after Christmas. If this is the man she wants she can have him. I think I will do a session with Harleys to get their professional opinion on when to do plan B because if I do it I want to leave the house since I know if I ask her to she will flat out refuse and it could become violent. I would like her to taste what single parenting would be like and miss all the things I do daily for our marriage and family and fixing our house and computers and cars and shoveling and making her coffee every morning and homework and dog care and building fires and ...


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BP,

Without going back and reading your whole thread, which I see LA is a regular contributer to (you're in great hands, BTW) I have to tell you that the secret to making Plan A work is in doing 5 things really well:

1)Meeting her ENs.
2)Avoiding LBs.
3)Keeping your own expectations under control.
4)Avoiding the attempts to educate a WS.
5)Learning to recognize fog talk for what it really is, a loud, obnoxious, annoying, startling sound that has no significance in most cases.

It was learning #5 that let me sleep for the first time in weeks when I first got here. If you dig through almost any thread by any BS who ever stuck it out long enough to actually begin a real Plan A, you will find everything your wife ever said during, about or because of the affair is right from the WS script. We could make a list...

ILYBINILWY
I never really loved you
We got married too young/early/soon...
We married for the wrong reasons
I haven't been happy for ____months/years
Our marriage has been over for ____years
I don't want to be married to you any more
I don't want to be married to anyone any more/right now (a corollary of the above)
I can't forget what has happened.
Too much has happened.
And my personal favorite...OM has nothing to do with what's wrong with our marriage.

Her line of "I can't get over our past" is related to "I can't see our future" and usually ends in "I just want to move forward." Ironic that someone who says they are defined by the past (as they have concocted it in their fantasy) and has no hope for the future feels a need to go forward to what they don't think exists. This is not a deep philosophical concept, just fog babble. Pay it no mind.

As for leaving the house, don't do it until you are completely exhausted. When you have slept on it for a week or more and still feel almost nothing for her, move out. Until then, if she wants to go, let her, but you stay home and you keep the kids and the house and anything else that is joint or in your name until a judge says otherwise. You don't want o fight her on everything, just don't let it be easier for her to end the marriage than it is to recover the marriage. That needs to be your goal, to make married to you better than not being married to you. All efforts need to have this as the goal and purpose.

Mark

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Bp,

Just wanted to give you some hope and encouragement, I was where you are only 8 short months ago, I don't know if you have read any of my thread.
You seem to be doing a great job but things in your posts hit home with me because you seem to be doing some of the things I was doing.
I know this is hard but you really need to stop hanging on your WW's every word, BobPure talks about Loving Detachment, read up on it, what she is saying is classic WW babble, I was making the same mistake, her changing her mind on what she wants hour by hour is also classic, this will continue until she goes NC and gets through withdrawal, but if this happens she should start to re-connect with you and start to commit to the M.
My W finally went NC on 14th July, and until 4 or 5 weeks ago she was worried that her feelings for me would never return, as she still felt empty towards me, but now she says she has started to feel warm towards me and on occassions, although not all the time yet she has felt that "oomph" again(her words not mine).
Another thing I would advise, another mistake I was making, is to try and not lecture her about MB principals or things you have learnt here or asking her to read things, this is pointless until she is through withdrawal. I asked my WW to read SAA 5 days into NC, she read it and told me none of it applied to her, I know she would say something very different now.
A couple of things that worked for me in getting WW to go NC, not sure if these are very MB, maybe get the opinion of a vet first were:
After our false recovery, I really laid in to her about the example she was setting to our 12 yr old DD, lying and swearing on my and DD's life that she was not going to see OM and then going to see him, teaching her that lying, cheating and infidelity were all fine, and that M was something you just dipped in and out of as you felt like it, DD knew about A as she had overheard a conversation a few weeks earlier, this really seemed to hit home and I saw some of the fog lift instantly. This was when she finally agreed to go NC and try and save our M.
I suggested to her that if OM and her really were the real deal then if she had NC for 4 months, to see if we could save our M for DD, he would still be there and her feelings would still be as strong.

Good luck you are doing a great job, just wanted to let you know that this stuff does work and help you not make some of the mistakes I was making.

Brae


Me - BH 42
FWW 40
DD 12
D-day 14th April 07
NC broken several times
False recovery until 14th July 07
NC finally established 14th July 07
OM reappears Aug 08. WW moves in with OM Nov 08. Now in Plan B

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I didn't ask and I didn't have to. She didn't answer her cell phone when I called if after work. She wasn't at home, DD said she went shopping so I know she was with him all afternoon doing GOD knows what. &!^%#*&@^$#*&!@^%#(*&!@#^%!! I cannot handle this anymore knowing they are together. I did not sleep 3 hours last night. I know plan A is over because I might kill her now. I need to survive through Christmas for the kids then I am out of the house if nothing changes.

I am so angry with her I can't believe she is throwing it in my face. Said I didn't have to call accountability partner to check on her lunch plans because she doesn't have to lie about anything. These things she said and did last night made me believe its for sure over with us. But overall I kept my cool despite showing lots of pain in my expressions and we went to a Landmark introductory meeting (personal growth kind of stuff recommended by friend that before we make any decisions we attend). OM even called her during the meeting!!!! F*** F*** F***. I cannot take anymore. I will not take anymore. She sees that I am at the end of my rope.

But after the meeting we talked about general Christmas stuff and went home to order presents.

WW said her cousin sent her a list of 25 questions that her current husband asked himself before he made a decision to leave his 1st marriage. The questions are as follows:
What do I have in common with OM? Husband?
What do I love about Husband / OM? FYI - this sounds easy, but it was not. It was not a fluff question. And in your case, you might want to do 3 people - What do I love about (Old) Husband, (New) Husband, & OM.
What are the detractors of Husband / OM?
What about OM is worth giving up Husband / my family? What about Husband / my family is worth giving up to be with OM?
Will I be able to live with my decision if things with OM don't work out?
What will people at work think?
What will my family / friends think of me / my decision?
What are the qualities of OM that I think I can build a life and home with him?
Would my family accept OM if I chose him?
Would OM get along with my friends?
What would I miss about Husband?
How would I manage the finances?
How would I manage two households (Husband's & yours)?
What are my expectations of OM? Husband?
Would OM be a good father to my children?
Does OM understand how much responsibility he would have with my kids if we built a relationship?
If OM wants more children, am I willing or not to have more?
Will it be ok for me to jump from one relationship to another so quickly?
How will it impact the kids?
What definite changes would I need from Husband?
What else do I need to learn about OM?
What are my / his top 5 priorities in building a successful relationship / marriage?
What would I need to change in myself in a new relationship with OM or a new one with Husband?
Do Husband / OM and I have the same beliefs?
What all do I need to take care of if I'm going to leave Husband?
If I choose to leave OM, what do I need to do to really end it with him?

So thats what she is working on. Does anyone see any problems or glaring omissions from this list. I don't know what to make of it.

At 3am I wrote her a 4 page letter that said, "Yes certain aspects of our past are not good, but I have demostrated the necessary changes in me over the last 5 months. You have comfirmed them yourself. I have given you the highest form of love, loving you while expecting nothing in return. You can justify leaving our marriage with our past if you want but our past is not our future. I have chosen to learn and grow and make improvements. Our potential for a happy marriage and family are here & now and they have nothing to do with our past. We can forgive each other for how we each failed in our marriage. We both were doing the best we could with what we knew at the time. I behaved badly in many cases but I was always here for you and our children doing the best I could with what I knew. I want to grow old with you, make your coffee everyday, see all my sunsets with you, dance the salsa at our 50th wedding anniversary, watch our children graduate high school and college, attend their weddings, witness the birth of our grandchildren, cherish and honor you until death do us part and die in your arms."

Should I be doing this kind of thing?? She read the letter this morning and her response was something about being sorry for causing me so much stress that I couldn't sleep. yeah thanks. Not to mention the last 6 months of he**.

This morning I woke her gently and we both sang happy birthday to our 6 year old. Then we hugged goodbye. Then she text me saying:

"I am really sorry for being so self involved and ignoring what u needed this week (I had informed her I had a very stressful year end computer project due at work) Just know that I can't take this anymore either. These questions will give me my decision."

Ok great she sees how she ignored my needs for the past week. But should I really be just sitting around waiting for her decision like a man on death row?? I want to do something. I want to leave so she can find out what it feels like with me not around. I don't like my fate resting in her hands when she has been so neglectful. AARRGGHH! (SCREAMING).


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Oh, BP...

My heart goes out to you...and so does my foot...it's achin' to kick you from behind.

You ever feel like that? (Rhetorical)

Okay...who have you been re-exposing to with each contact? The entire family, OM's family? What was your progressive boundary enforcement for continued contact? What did you promise (even under your radar) to yourself if she continued to attack your marriage with contact?

Take those steps...part of you changing is that you are PRESENT, AWARE, COMMITTED to knowing your choices from hers...

And be aware...that's the most messed up piece of WS written questions crap I've ever seen.

OM IS NOT REAL.

YOU ARE REAL.

Stand up for you, reality and your marriage.

This is more foggy crap..."You know you're stabbing our marriage in the gut with every word, thought and action you take in regards to OM. You and I both know you are continuing to choose daily to murder our union, break apart our family, and destroy our childrens' lives right now."

No anger...stated truth needs no anger, no punch. State those facts...change the locks...move her stuff to the garage. You are the only one left to defend your family, aren't you?

Smile, say you accept and respect she is choosing to not recover, and you're glad, feel a bit relieved, that she's made that choice when she choose to contact or receive contact from OM.

The A will die...read JustJilly's Begin Again thread from last summer...she figures out in her 12 year affair marriage how they stay in a perpetual wayward state of mind...she examines it...because neither are real.

Both AP are fantasy...they don't know each other day in and out as their real spouses do...real selves...they are best selves...clean slates...and they crash and burn because of this...a relationship based on fantasy cannot stand because they have a REAL one they are betraying.

Your fate and your children's fates are not in her hands...she's only half the marriage. You've got equal power and limits in your half. Stop allowing yourself to spiral, go into the future, the past...mind your own promises to yourself and your family...you choose them...DO them.

Plan A is over, in my opinion. You change the locks or take her key...you hand her a proposed visitation plan and remove your half of the money from any joint accounts and set up ones she has no person to use. You do this courteously, with great accept that she choose this when she chose to break NC. That's THE TRUTH, got it?

You go to Plan B immediately...don't wait for Christmas...that's just teaching your children to accept attacks, harm and go to fantasy to cope until it's not a special day. The wreckage this year of your marriage has been HECK for them, too...children soothe their feelings with fantasy and distraction...and you encouraging, okaying it is the same as your WW justifying her A, isn't it?

Their Christmas will still come...there will be moments of pleasure, laughter, delight and appreciation...could be a lot of tears, holding, understanding, listening and hearing the souls of the kids...will be real, will be for one day...and won't be forever.

What will be the end of your marriage forever is if you continue Plan A, lose your feelings from resentment, grown into entitlement from pain...and torture yourself seeing your WW doing it and not your half of doubling it through your own choices. Be strong, firm, respectful and state reality, do not participate in her stuff, her fantasy.

Each time you do, you're signalled through rage from great pain that you're betraying your marriage...that's what I believe.

I don't want that for you...I want you to shine with respect, act from your own choice to love, and stay on course with your goal...which has a great Plan A followed by a timely Plan B. Stay faithful to your own promises to yourself, your marriage and your children, BP.

You can do this.

LA

LovingAnyway #1978747 12/20/07 05:27 PM
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LA,
Thank you for your help. I am desperate for advice. I feel I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown if I have to experience one more moment with their contact. I know I can't go home. I can't stand and won't tolerate the attitude she gave me yesterday. Especially after I am sure she spent the day with him, that they probably had sex. And then she came home with Xmas presents for our families. She said you don't have to ask anybody about my whereabouts because I don't have to lie (confirmation of seeing him). That was the last straw for me. I cannot look at her again right now, too much pain.

I work 30 miles away from home 8-5pm. 6 year old son gets home from school at 3pm. Other kids at 4pm. WW works from home so she is there when they get home. I am not. To me this dictates that I leave the house. No? no alternatives.

We don't have Christmas presents ready. Am I ruining Christmas and will that make her too mad or so mad at me??

If wife is about to decide, MC says I should have upper hand instead of waiting for her to decide I should go to plan B strongly.

I am not prepared for plan B. No letter. No conditions of reconciliation ready. If she rubberbands and says come home I will be very tempted because of Christmas for kids. Not sure of my resolve to go totally dark??

I have exposed to some of our family upon repeated contact but not his. I feel exposing to his is pointless, he divorced, nothing left to lose. And MC's experience with exposure is not good so I hesitated.

One more question: Last night we attended Landmark intro and I told her we should go to 3 day Landmark seminar in 1/2/08 for the weekend in Chicago but if I am in plan B what do I do???? Should we still go together?

Last edited by bigpicture; 12/20/07 05:43 PM.

God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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3 children, 1 granddaughter
bigpicture #1978748 12/21/07 12:09 PM
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Actually, I'm going to ask you to go home...stay home. I totally understand the magnitude of that advice.

Herculean.

I believe in you. I know you can do this.

My amends for my horrible behavior relates to asking you to do this.

My BH stayed. He stayed through my A, right in his face...step by step. He stayed, he said, because he believed that good men don't leave.

Sometimes, I think, it does take leaving. He left for his AP, in the end.

And he came back.

Her attitude and actions are hers...not yours. Are you tolerating, encouraging them? Or are you re-exposing her to everyone, updating the most current truth of her choices...bringing her reality?

Do not assume what she means in her words...listen, repeat...to clarify or confirm. Your own assumptions (DJs) can kick you so low you hurt double. Don't do that to yourself. You don't know one way or the other. Re-expose.

Do your children know of her A? Did you throw out all of the OM mementoes mentioned in your linked post?

You believe exposure is the last ditch effort.

In my perception, that means you want the truth last...you want to live from truth, last...so you can make up reality? See...you don't really know if OM filed for divorce...exposing to OMW, his parents, siblings, friends...as well as re-exposing to your family and WW family...is spreading the truth...her choices...and then you STOP getting in the way of her consequences and LET GOD WORK.

He works in truth...he does nothing against a person's choices...not ever. He is unfailingly respectful of our choices.

Assuming reality is not bringing it...living from it...it is participating in fantasy, BP.

Are you guys going to WEEKLY MC sessions? Accountability is also in WW facing the MC and owning her actions...contact...

And yes, Plan B isn't something you plunge into without thinking it through...as you were doing in your post.

You can find a sitter or neighbor for your children after school...you can stay in the home and ask for a restraining order against your WW...doesn't mean you'll get one...may well mean you will.

There are many Plan B letters on this website...similar requirements for the road home...you've had too many breaks in NC...from not exposing and re-exposing...you waffled...which increases reactivity, downward spirals...no wonder to me you feel like you're next to a nervous breakdown.

Did your MC really use those words about you should have the upper hand? Really?

She can work from another temporary home while she chooses to continue her A...tell her that's what a respectable wife and mother would do...not conduct her A in front of her BH and children. Tell her you know she'll do the right thing and move out until she chooses to NOT dwell in her thoughts, put her energy into OM...instead of on her real H, real children and family.

How can OM already be divorced in two months? Don't they have children, too?

Do not make promises you cannot keep. You don't want to go the Landmark seminar with a fogged up adulterer, do you? You want to go with a clear, recommitted and remorseful W, I think.

Stop confusing the two.

Stop buying into all her stuff and overlooking your own.

Are you ruining Christmas? Really? Where'd that come from? Would our children want an intact family or some store-bought stuff. They SEE you suffer, overhear the pain...feel it in their bones...they fear.

And that's you ruining Christmas?

Realign, BP...your own DJs and chosen perspective is halfway kicking your butt. Stand for your marriage, get out of the way of her consequences...know that it isn't all or nothing...that's your inner child at work...there are at least 50 steps to be taken in between...where our adult selves live.

The A continues with every single contact. Period. Whether it's physical or not.

Her choice to continue her A. That's for you to choose to believe and live from. That's a boundary.

If you base what your choice of actions are on the possible response (pointless or not), then you are making others the master of your marriage...your own assumptions...not the truth. Hold yourself to acting because it's the right thing to do...and you will live in that experience.

Reactivity sinks recoverying marriages...sinks the war because it sinks each battle. Choosing to act, not react...what you've been practicing...is the antithesis of a wayward state of mind...which reacts to emotions, chooses their life based on the emotions, and justifies their choices from emotions.

Learn to know reactivity as a signal you are slipping in choosing your beliefs and acting directly from this...part of this retraining is a benefit for you in recovered...practice, practice, practice, 'k?

Know you have all you need right now...God is providing, reaching, holding and standing WITH you for your marriage.

Plan B is a part of ending the A. Not manipulation. You may well see it as manipulation because you continue to base your actions on possible reactions...that's a tough loop we have all been conditioned to do. Break that loop. Remove one part of it and the loop stops...break the part of where you make your choices from.

LA

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Had another thought I may have already shared with you...since it came back as I thought about your sitch, I'm gonna say it, anyway.

When my reactivity jumped up, something that helped me re-center was to remember...what my chosen goal was for my marriage...me doing what feels intolerable, I could do for my marriage...not my WH. I could be brave for the marriage...I could act calm, respectful...for my marriage.

Even when I couldn't for my WH.

Conversely, choosing to see what my WH was doing against the marriage, not me, helped me to not react as much internally.

Beliefs always have a top side and an underside...equally applicable. Our MC is the one who handed me this...and I'm grateful. Passing it on.

You really are fighting FOR your marriage...not fighting your WW for it.

Really helped me out. Hope the same for you.

LA


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