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Well oneoftwo your patterns haven't changed either you married a woman that had red signs flashing all over the place, had a baby with her because? and now in a relationship that has yet again those glaring red signs again , trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I think YOU need to work on you first and ask why YOU keep picking the same type of relationship over and over.

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If you have any advise, please don’t hold back.

Based on what you said, it's a no brainer. Dump Jane cold turkey. Spend some time alone. Focus on being a father to your daughter. Figure out what you want/need in a HEALTHY partner.

AGG


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oneoftwo

None of this will make sense for you until you own up to the mistakes and bad decisions you have made. Stop diminishing them by justifying - you've made a couple of doozies (sp?)

This is not being judgmental - it is simply factual: you did things for the wrong reasons and in the wrong order. No matter how bad, miserable, unfair, loveless, whatever your marriages were, NOTHING excuses or justifies infidelity. NOTHING

If your marriage was dead, then divorce and THEN fall in love with someone else. Can't divorce for some reason? Then protect your heart against falling in love because it is just WRONG to do things in that order. There are moral and religious reasons (I'll skip those because the scripture quoters will be here suffocating you soon enough I'm sure). But there are very practical and ethical reasons too as people have pointed out.

So first thing you need to do before anyone can help you is to take responsibility for the collosal mistakes you have made.

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Both of us did the best we could in the crappy situation we had. Both of us have gone through the reconciliation process in our church. Both of us are trying to start new lives.

John,

The "Best We Could" would have been to divorce your respective spouses before you ever become involved in another relationship.

Did either of you tell the church that you were having an emotional affair with a married person? A person which you planned to be with once divorced?

Starting a new life would be you completely on your own for a term learning to be single and taking time to be introspective of your part in the demise of your marriage in order to avoid making those same mistakes.

I wish you peace and healing, John.

God Bless.
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Okay John...let's look at this realistically.

First, you need to understand and accept what you have done here. By the legal and moral (religious) definition, you have committed adultery. So has this OW, Jane. If you are a Christian, then you will need to fully understand what you have gotten yourself into and how bad it will get for you as you continue to live in sin.

Second, even if what she has told you about her husband is true...it isnt your business! It is between her and her husband. If he is abusive, she has recourse...which she has yet to take. Except for cheating on him with another man. But no matter how she handles it...or how bad things are at home for her...it is not your business. The most you could do as a co-worker and friend is to point her to the proper authorities, pastor, organizations...to help her do the right thing with regards to her husband. As I said before...it is none of your business.

One of the things the veterans here have learned is that adulterous relationships are built on lies. Lies to spouses. Lies to themselves. And even lies to the affair partner. How do you know ANY of what she has told you about her husband is true? Have you talked to him? Is there a police record? As I said, and Dr. Harley has stated in his writings...affair partners are notorious for saying whatever it is that will keep the affair going. Even lies. Affair partners talk about how bad things are at home. And then comfort each other by saying how good things would be between them, if it werent for their spouses.

We have seen this a thousand times. Your situation is not unique!! These situations never are unique.

You talk about your home life. And I will take your word at it that it is exactly as you spelled out above. So what?? None of what you have said about your marriage entitles you to commit adultery. Society says you can divorce. God says you cant. Now, if you want to go into the religious aspect of it, we can. But let's just take societal norms right now. If your marriage is as bad as you say...then you should have divorced your wife before entering into a relationship with another woman. Secondly, even if you were divorced, you do not have any right having sex and a relationship with another man's wife. And no amount of argument will you be able to make that will change that!

As was posted above, affair relationships have virtually no chance of working out. You have a better chance of working on things with your wife and things getting better...then of you having a long term reltionship with your affair partner. You can think you two are special, unique, whatever...but in the end, the stats dont lie! And as was posted above, Dr. Harley spells out why that is.

You are upset that there are those on here that wont help you make your affair relationship better. But what you are ignoring, or dont know, is that we already know that your relationship has virtually no chance. So, why would we do that? Why wouldnt we help point you in a healthy and moral direction that would lead to success, rather than try to help you patch the Titanic. John, this ship is going down!

We arent being mean. We are being realistic. Neither you nor Jane are being realistic. If you want help in doing the right thing (maybe even repairing your marriage...it is possible), then we are all here for you. If you want help in normalizing the abnormal, or us to help you make sense out of nonsense...well, that just wont happen here.

You may take all of this and just run away, saying we are all full of it. But what we know is that eventually, life wil ltake you to the point where you will remember what we said here...and admit to yourself that we were right.

And it isnt us being right, per se. It is just the facts!


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If you were so concerned with the proper upbringing of Jane's children, why would you move in with her? It's hard enough for children to watch their parents separate, but then to have their mother share a bed with someone she is not married to must have finished them off. I hope these kids are in counseling.

These children have a mother and a father. As far as they are concerned you are just the guy shacking up with their mom who wants to boss them around. Will they change their view of you? Not in your lifetime or theirs either. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. If you want a relationship with this woman, you are going to have to have you own digs and date the way unmarried people are supposed to. Leave the parenting to the parents.


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You know, I have been quiet because with all the therapy I have learned that much of what people say is about them and not about yourself. But I have had just about enough.

Are you a total moron? Didn't you actually read what I wrote? I am divorced and so is she. We have both been divorced for several years. You say "maybe even repairing your marriage...it is possible". There is no marriage, we are divorced.

I read commentary after commentary, and it is as if you people already have the answer and you’re just looking for the right question. I see postings that reference things I never even said. Or you just totally ignore what I said and you just make up your own reality. The person that said "Dr. Harley says no secrets, blah blah." I was giving her an engagement ring [color:"blue"] ******Edit******[/color], I don't think it is that unusual to plan it as a surprise. And it wasn't like what I said was complicated or confusing, it is just you read what you wanted to read instead of actually reading the words. There have been at least a half-dozen mis-quotes, but you people don’t care if you’re facts are right, you’re making this about you.

You people are so judgmental. God better look out because there is a new sheriff in town, all of you who think you are better than the Almighty. As I was very clear, I went through the reconciliation process with my priest. Yes I told him everything, yes everything. You know what??? I completed the reconciliation process, and God forgives. Do you? Apparently not because you seemed to think you are better than Jesus Christ himself.

I went back to that same priest a few months later to say I am still having issues dealing with guilt. You know what he said... "you must think you are better than God, because if God has forgiven you where do you come off having a higher standard." But maybe I should introduce him to you, because he said he would be interested in meeting anyone more holy than God himself. I am sure somehow in your [color:"blue"] ******Edit****** [/color] you will find some reason to doubt the validity of the sacrament of reconciliation, as I said before, take it up with the Pope. You like to quote from the bible, well the bible also states that Jesus sent his disciples off to spread the word and to hold account, those that are forgiven are forgiven. But apparently you think you are better than God. Good luck on your judgment day, I hope He is a little easier on you than you are on other people.

And for those of you who want to cut hairs on Seperation Agreements versus Divorce Decree. Well, first if it weren’t for the totally messed up nature of our judicial system, maybe people would get the divorce decree before multiple birthdays went by. It is no one’s fault other than bureaucracy, politians, and inept lawyers as to why it takes so long. Don’t blame a person for trying to move on emotionally because it takes 9 months to get a trial date. It is interesting, that with a separation agreement, finances can be preliminary split, visitation can be setup, but as a person… oh no, you must be held prisoner until some judge and a bunch of lawyers figure out they have the time and inclination to deal with your issue. How many of you got notice from the court for whatever reason your hearing was postponed. I had one where the judge decided to take a vacation day and it cost 3 months. And somehow people are wrong to try to move on as a person because some guy on the bench decides he doesn’t want to come into work on day. Give me a break, get a clue.

I find it interesting how many (albeit not all, thankfully) come out of the woodwork thrusting their perfectness on people. This board is not yours, it is Dr. Harley's, and I believe he set it up for a way for people to seek help and support. Not fulfill a vendetta. Life is not black and white, life has lots of gray. Good gray and bad gray. And to ignore all gray because you are on [color:"blue"] ******Edit****** [/color]. Your absolutist attitudes show your total lack of understanding and tolerance. If some gang-banger in LA shoots someone, I think everyone would agree that is bad, but if one of our honorable men or woman overseas shoots someone, it is unfortunate but necessary. This is the way most people think. Why, because life is about circumstances and nuances, and not every situation can be painted with the same brush. But not you, you are better than most people, for some reason you have ordained yourself to be [color:"blue"]******Edit******[/color].

You are like people sitting in the back of the room at an AA meeting casting stones at all the people that are there after a slip. You know why AA works? Because it doesn't matter whether you are rich or poor, doesn't matter what your drug is, it doesn't matter how bad it was, there is no better or worse problem... everyone is equal, everyone has a problem, and everyone can support. But not you, you are better than anyone else.

Dr. Harley is also quite clear that infidelity doesn't happen in a good marriage where the Love Banks are full. So if your marriage fell apart, what was your part in it? From what I have seen there is a lot of intolerance, a lot of judgment, a lot of projecting, a lot of condescending, and frankly you seem pretty miserable. All of which seem like Love Busters and maybe even Annoying Habits. How about accounting for you own behavior that drove to an empty Love Bank? How about you take some accountability? I bet you are the same type of people that like to sit in the front row at church looking holier than thou, and then nearly run people over rushing out of the parking lot after.

I didn't come here to deal with your issues. I came here to this site and this forum specifically to get some assistance with mine. Go find some victim website to troll on, and let the people that are trying to make a better future get what this forum was setup for.

[color:"blue"] [Edited for TOS Violation][/color]

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"Don't think that all of this came easy to me, there were many hours and many days I spent at the edge of the ocean asking God for guidance."

It's not uncommon for adulterers to assure themselves that even God understands why they would betray their spouse/marriage for an OP. There are a few former WS's here at MB's who will tell you they once felt the same way.
But it's all just part of the adultery/addiction/fog.

Adulterers also believe that their new adulterous relationship is somehow special, another common false assumption. I guess that's why it comes as such a shock to them when the cheater they got involved with cheats on them too?

IMHO when two married people leave their spouses to cheat with each other, claiming the marriages/spouses they left behind were too 'dead' or horrible or whatever to salvage, in reality they are taking the problems with them into the next relationship. Because the truth is the adulterers are the ones lacking in integrity, effort, knowledge, etc. to make a marriage work. So you have two adulterers abandoning their marriages to build what together? Neither really has the ablity or intent to do the work needed to build a strong satisfactory marriage.

Adulteries are fantasy based. I'm actually surprised some of them last as long as they do. And the ones that do eventually last are probably only because the adulterers put the effort into the affairage that they should have put into the marriages they destroyed. But apparently most adulterers never realize let alone admit that. They just keep on swapping partners whenever their own failure to work at their relationship causes them to feel bored or disappointed.

This site is for adultery prevention and recovery. The same principles that help marriages recover after adultery aren't really meant to help adulterers somehow magically keep the fantasy alive long after reality sets in.

The reality of your situation is that you naively assumed your adultery partner was a person of integrity, somebody 'special'. She's not - she's just another adulterer who apparently had no more qualms about cheating on you than she did about cheating on her husband.

BTW, there is no valid excuse for adultery. Your marriage was your responsibility to work on. And even if you really did do all you could to improve the marriage, even if you then had grounds for divorce, then adultery still was not an honorable choice. You honestly do your best to build the marriage, then you file for divorce, then you wait until the divorce is final, THEN you get involved with somebody new. No excuses.

I have tried posting here at this divorce/dating part of MB's several times in the past. But each time I soon leave because I've always found it so littered with unrepentant adulterers that it sickens me. IMHO the Harleys should not allow all the adultery-supporting garbage that gets posted here as there is already enough of that filth on the internet already. Surely adulterers have other websites they can post for tips on how to break up marriages and attempt to ressurrect dying affairages?

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John,

First of all...you need to stop with the name calling. I certainly have not called you any names! Secondly, I will deal with what you posted below.

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You know, I have been quiet because with all the therapy I have learned that much of what people say is about them and not about yourself. But I have had just about enough.

Nothing I said here was about me. I was just stating the facts about affair relationships. They are the facts.

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Are you a total moron? Didn't you actually read what I wrote? I am divorced and so is she. We have both been divorced for several years. You say "maybe even repairing your marriage...it is possible". There is no marriage, we are divorced.

Maybe I did miss that. The reason I probably did is that...well, it doesnt matter! Your relationship started as an affair...in adultery. You cant undue that and normalize a relationship. You are with a woman that is willing to ignore her vows and her morals to be with another man. And she is with a man willing to do the same. And in such relationships, they are doomed from the start!

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I read commentary after commentary, and it is as if you people already have the answer and you’re just looking for the right question. I see postings that reference things I never even said.

What you do not get is that it matters not what little minor differences are in your relationship between the "normal" affair. Because, the relationship started out as a lie and will continue to be hampered by that lie. You cant undo that!

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Or you just totally ignore what I said and you just make up your own reality. The person that said "Dr. Harley says no secrets, blah blah." I was giving her an engagement ring dimwit, I don't think it is that unusual to plan it as a surprise. And it wasn't like what I said was complicated or confusing, it is just you read what you wanted to read instead of actually reading the words. There have been at least a half-dozen mis-quotes, but you people don’t care if you’re facts are right, you’re making this about you.

Well, not sure who misquoted you. I will let them answer for that.

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You people are so judgmental. God better look out because there is a new sheriff in town, all of you who think you are better than the Almighty. As I was very clear, I went through the reconciliation process with my priest. Yes I told him everything, yes everything. You know what??? I completed the reconciliation process, and God forgives. Do you? Apparently not because you seemed to think you are better than Jesus Christ himself.

I did not bring up, except in passing, the Christian aspect of this. If you want to go into that, we can. But in short, I will say this...the Bible is VERY clear on adultery. It is VERY clear that God does not condone it. It is also VERY clear that a believer caught in adultery, and continuing adultery, will have a very tough time because of it (again, I can give you the Scripture references). Some denominations get away from Scripture, and make up their own rules...sometimes in conflict with Scripture. Sure, God forgives. But He can only forgive once you stop the sin. In these cases, God just steps out of the way and lets those that want to do it their way, reap the rewards (consequences) of their behavior (read Hebrews 10!!). Want a Biblical example? Please read about David and Bathsheeba and what it cost him to be forgiven!! It was a VERY high price!

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I went back to that same priest a few months later to say I am still having issues dealing with guilt. You know what he said... "you must think you are better than God, because if God has forgiven you where do you come off having a higher standard." But maybe I should introduce him to you, because he said he would be interested in meeting anyone more holy than God himself. I am sure somehow in your closed up little mind you will find some reason to doubt the validity of the sacrament of reconciliation, as I said before, take it up with the Pope.

Take it up with the Pope? How about take it up with the Bible. The Pope is a man...the Bible is the Word of God. And the Bible says something different than yo uare posting here.

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You like to quote from the bible, well the bible also states that Jesus sent his disciples off to spread the word and to hold account, those that are forgiven are forgiven. But apparently you think you are better than God. Good luck on your judgment day, I hope He is a little easier on you than you are on other people.

Again, you dont know what you speak of! The Bible is VERY clear about adultery, about forgiveness, etc. And forgiveness isnt something you just say "I'm sorry" for. It requires repentence. And repentence requires turning from your sin. I once counseled a couple on here that had done what you two have done, and they married. And a few years into it, one had committed adultery. And there were a host of other issues. And I told them (they are Christians also) that it appears that much of what continues to happen to them is the consequences of their sin. As I said, Hebrews 10 outlines what God says about believers in rebellion. And the one part you can take away from that is that the believer in rebellion, no longer has a sacrifice for their sin (Jesus). For that sin they are in rebellion of, they get to take on the full consequences of that action. Now, God does have the right to take a repentent believer and take away the consequences of their sins. But He has stated in Hebrews 10 that He wont take away the consequences of rebellion.

Know what the difference between sin and rebellion is? Well, my boys know they arent to throw baseballs in the house. But let's say my 10 year old comes home and does it anyway, breaking a lamp. He has sinned against me and the rules of the house. Now, let's say I am sitting right there on the couch and tell him "dont throw that ball in this house," and he does it anyway and breaks the lamp. That is something ENTIRELY different! That is rebellion. And you can imagine how much more severe things would be for my son.

Same goes with this. If you sin, recognize your sin, repent from it...God can take away the consequences if He wants to. But, with the full knowledge of the truth (Scripture), you go ahead and sin and keep doing that sin...well, God has stated that He will NOT take away the consequences of that sin.

Your rebellion in regards to Jane continues. And thus, God has promised He wont take away the consequences of that rebellion. And what are the consequences? Well, they could be sexual diseases (not saying you two have them...just giving examples!). They could be continued adulterous relationshps by one or both of you (already happened, huh??). There will be mistrust. In my wife's case, even though we have reconciled and she has gotten right with the Lord, her back injury in the middle of all of this still plagues her and we are very sure (as well as our pastor) that God allowed this to happen to get her attention. And unfortunately, He has let it remain.

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And for those of you who want to cut hairs on Seperation Agreements versus Divorce Decree. Well, first if it weren’t for the totally messed up nature of our judicial system, maybe people would get the divorce decree before multiple birthdays went by. It is no one’s fault other than bureaucracy, politians, and inept lawyers as to why it takes so long. Don’t blame a person for trying to move on emotionally because it takes 9 months to get a trial date. It is interesting, that with a separation agreement, finances can be preliminary split, visitation can be setup, but as a person… oh no, you must be held prisoner until some judge and a bunch of lawyers figure out they have the time and inclination to deal with your issue. How many of you got notice from the court for whatever reason your hearing was postponed. I had one where the judge decided to take a vacation day and it cost 3 months. And somehow people are wrong to try to move on as a person because some guy on the bench decides he doesn’t want to come into work on day. Give me a break, get a clue.

Oh, I have a clue. My situation went on for over 4 years!! We went to court twice (you can read up on it if you like). Did I break my vows to God and start up a sexual relationship with someone else during that time? Nope. You see, I made a promise...not just to my wife. I made a promise to God. And I meant to be a man of my word

Since you have said you are a Christian, then let's talk about that a second. Did you have the authority, did you have a Biblical reason to divorce your wife? If not, then God did not authorize your divorce. God states in Malachi "I hate divorce." He also goes on to state "I never change." Biblically, if your wife had commiteed adultery on you, you had a Biblical right to divorce. Outside of that, you were in rebellion to God.

God's plan is not first and foremost your happiness. It is first and foremost the ongoingness of the family unit. You two have destroyed two families. God was nowhere in that. He hated what both of you did (His words!).

I am not being judgmental. I am trying to speak the truth as outlined in Scripture, to a brother in Christ. I am not attacking you. My own wife did what you two did. And I dont judge her. But, even today, if we were to talk about all of this, I would stand on truth.

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I find it interesting how many (albeit not all, thankfully) come out of the woodwork thrusting their perfectness on people. This board is not yours, it is Dr. Harley's, and I believe he set it up for a way for people to seek help and support. Not fulfill a vendetta. Life is not black and white, life has lots of gray. Good gray and bad gray.

The last I checked, the 10 Commandments werent grey. The last I checked, they werent the "10 Suggestions." I am guilty of many sins. I still sin, it is our nature. I am not condemning you. This board is set up for all to come to, that is true. But, what I said in my first post had to do with the realities of the relationship you are in. Factual studies and evidence, as outlined even by Dr. harley, state that you are hoping against hope that your relationship with this woman will work out. And the odds say "no." And even if you beat the odds, these relationships are plagued with the consequences of the actions taken that started the relationship. Wouldnt it be better to have a relationship that has a chance of really making it AND of honoring God?

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And to ignore all gray because you are on your pulpit makes you pretty ignorant. Your absolutist attitudes show your total lack of understanding and tolerance. If some gang-banger in LA shoots someone, I think everyone would agree that is bad, but if one of our honorable men or woman overseas shoots someone, it is unfortunate but necessary. This is the way most people think. Why, because life is about circumstances and nuances, and not every situation can be painted with the same brush. But not you, you are better than most people, for some reason you have ordained yourself to be God like.

Huh? Comparing gang bangers murdering someone with a soldier defending himself and shooting someone in war? That isnt grey. One is murder, the other isnt. God says "Thou shall not murder." The other is allowed. That is as black and white as it gets.

Again, I dont think I am better than anyone. I look at many people and say "there but for the grace of God go I." I am just presenting the facts. The facts of what is shown in society and wit hthe studies. And the Biblical facts as outlined by God in His word.

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You are like people sitting in the back of the room at an AA meeting casting stones at all the people that are there after a slip. You know why AA works? Because it doesn't matter whether you are rich or poor, doesn't matter what your drug is, it doesn't matter how bad it was, there is no better or worse problem... everyone is equal, everyone has a problem, and everyone can support. But not you, you are better than anyone else.

No, not better. We are the people that get the drunk to the AA meetings. We are the people that try to keep the drunk out of the bars, and keep him sober. We are the people that actually care about the drunk. As we do you.

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Dr. Harley is also quite clear that infidelity doesn't happen in a good marriage where the Love Banks are full. So if your marriage fell apart, what was your part in it?

Very good question. And you can read all about what I did to create a climate in our marriage where infidelity was possible. I didnt meet my wife's needs the way she needed them met. I love busted in many ways. I wont go into all of what I did or didnt do here, unless you want me to. But suffice it to say, I was guilty of not doing what it took to be the husband that my wife deserved. But...get this...Dr. Harley also goes on to say that infidelity is NOT the fault of the BS. it isnt. Infidelity is the fault of the WS and the poor choices they make. You see, I had every reason to move on and find someone else. My wife had moved out on me and the kids. She was in an adulterous relationship with the OM. More than her, I had a right according to society, to just move on and be happy. Right? Wrong!! Because, I was still married! And I would have been committing adultery. So, why did my wife commit adultery, and I didnt...even though I had even more reason to do so? Answer that question, and you will understand all of this. And believe me, it isnt just the BSs on here that will say this. We have some very good FWSs on here, that will tell you the same thing!

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From what I have seen there is a lot of intolerance, a lot of judgment, a lot of projecting, a lot of condescending, and frankly you seem pretty miserable.

Sure, there is misery on here. Adultery causes that! Am I miserable? Nope. I have never been happier! My marriage is the best it has ever been, we have a new child. None of that was possible without the folks here, without the Harleys...and of course, without Jesus. Am I intolerant of sin? Sure. So is God. With me, and with anyone. His punishment for sin is death. That is pretty intolerant.

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All of which seem like Love Busters and maybe even Annoying Habits.

Huh? Your statement here shows that you dont know what LBs and annoying habits are, in context of what Dr. harely is talking about.

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How about accounting for you own behavior that drove to an empty Love Bank? How about you take some accountability?

I have! I have laid it all out there, even on this board! The good, bad and ugly. I even make mistakes today. So does my wife. But, there is no more rebellion. We are both get up everyday trying to do as the Lord wants us to. I have posted here many times, my concept of the Christian life. I call it "Begin again." When I stumble and fall, Jesus who is right beside me, picks me up, dusts me off, and we begin again. But, that would mean that I am willing to walk His path, not my own. So far, you want God to ratify a path that He did not choose, had nothing to do with. And has even says He hates.

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I bet you are the same type of people that like to sit in the front row at church looking holier than thou, and then nearly run people over rushing out of the parking lot after.

Cant speak for others...but that aint me. And most people around here that have been here for any length of time, know that! As my pastor says, the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. I am not better than you. But, right now, the difference between you and me is that you are falling forthe big lie...and wanting God to ratify your decisions, instead of you following His. All I want to do is His will. If you felt the same, then you would not be entering into this relationship and would seek His will for your life. Again, the Bible is loaded with all of this, if you care for the references.

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I didn't come here to deal with your issues. I came here to this site and this forum specifically to get some assistance with mine. Go find some victim website to troll on, and let the people that are trying to make a better future get what this forum was setup for.

Uhhhh, I am not dealing with my issues! I have my marriage back...better than ever. I am here, like many veterans, to help. I am well versed in the MB principles and what they are for. I am also well versed in what Scripture says about marriage, adultery and divorce. I also have much research on marriage, adultery and divorce.

If I asked you if you would bet your entire future on a stock that only has a 2-3% chance of succeeding and makign money, would you do it? of course you wouldnt. But that is what you are trying to do. The odds of you and Jane making it are 3%. And you have bet your lives, the lives of your rightful spouses...and the lives of your kids, on a 3% chance of success.

That is why I am posting. That is why I am saying what I am. Because, I do know. I do know the facts. I do know what the Harelys have here. I do know what God has said through Scripture.

And you sir, are trying to ignore or downplay much of that in order to make the impossible, possible. That has nothing to do with me.

I know you want to make this work. But, again, you are betting everything on something that, no matter how well you try to meet needs and not love bust, will still be tainted and have issues. That is the facts of this.

So, instead of trying to attack the messenger(s), why dont we go thru this and go thru the facts and the word of God, and then make your judgments at the end.

Again, I am not attacking you. I have not called you names (as you have). I have not made false judgments about you, as you have. I have just stated the facts about what you have gotten yourself into.


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oneoftwo:

I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.

While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.

I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.

I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.

There are so many obsticles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.

But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.

I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.

The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.

While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obsticles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

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"You know why AA works?"

Because they don't serve booze at the meetings, they don't glorify or defend drinking, they acknowledge the negative consequences of drinking, they admit the drinking has to stop, and they assign accountability partners.

You basically came to an internet site that is for stopping adultery, and then asked for assistance in trying to keep a dying adultery going.

It's like you came to an AA meeting, while under the influence, saying you have no intention to stop drinking, and then acting all offended when you were told that your drinking problem is a problem AND that no alcohol is being served here.

Sheesh!

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Great to hear from the good Dr. himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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"But as soon as the kid issues enter the mix, the wheels fall off. That is why I came here. That is the topic I need advice on."

The best thing you and your adultery partner can do for the children is to admit to them that adultery is wrong, to end the adultery, and to do all that is humanly possible to restore the marriage to their other parent.

To do otherwise, while claiming to care about your kids, is in reality whining that the kids are interfering with your adultery. Adultery is like an addiction. And like any addiction it can get so bad that you even start to view your own children as less important than the next fix.

Also, with any addiction there comes a point when the next fix doesn't even give you that same euphoria anymore plus the naturally occurring consequences start to interfere with the high. So the addict increases the dose... or tries a new drug (the OW getting a new OM).

BTW, the excuses the OW is giving you for cheating with a new OM shouldn't be taken too seriously by you anyway. She was probably going to cheat on you no matter what. It's what cheaters do after all. If it wasn't one excuse it would be another. I'm surprised you actually tried to go to counseling with her and to fix the problems. If she were that sort of person she would have worked on her marriage instead of cheating on her husband. Are you starting to catch on that even if one partner genuinely wants to meet the other's EN's and makes efforts to do so, that is still no guarantee? Cheaters cheat. It has far more to do with the cheater than whomever they are cheating on.

Sure, meeting your spouse's EN's helps to protect against adultery, but the flip side of that is to NEVER allow any OP to meet your EN's, even if your spouse isn't perfect and doesn't always meet them. It was YOUR responsibility to inform your BW what your most important EN's were, to make sure she had ample opportunity to meet your EN's, AND to NOT allow the OW to meet them, PLUS to do your best to meet your BW's EN's. Your wife's failure to meet your EN's was just as much your failure too because you allowed an OW to meet your EN's.

It's about integrity. People with integrity don't cheat; people without integrity do cheat. And that is just as much a factor as meeting EN's. EN's is a MB principle because it is something that the BS can control to some extent, can help prevent adultery. But even doing your best to meet EN's doesn't trump a serial cheater's general lack of integrity.

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I TOTALLY agree with Pieta!:

"If you were so concerned with the proper upbringing of Jane's children, why would you move in with her? It's hard enough for children to watch their parents separate, but then to have their mother share a bed with someone she is not married to must have finished them off. I hope these kids are in counseling.
These children have a mother and a father. As far as they are concerned you are just the guy shacking up with their mom who wants to boss them around. Will they change their view of you? Not in your lifetime or theirs either. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. If you want a relationship with this woman, you are going to have to have you own digs and date the way unmarried people are supposed to. Leave the parenting to the parents."

You are NOT the parent of your adultery partner's kids - PERIOD! You are not even their step-parent. You are just one of the guys she's cheated on her husband with. IMHO it is very difficult for children to respect the authority of an adulterous parent, let alone the inappropriately presumed authority of one of her OM. Why should they respect you two (or three counting newest OM)? Did you honestly expect her kids to welcome your interference in their lives? LOL

Also, it seems your motive for wanting her kids to be raised differently are selfish. You want her to make changes in her parenting so that your adultery with her can continue with less friction. Has it never occurred to you that just maybe her kids do not want their mother cheating on their father with OM? Maybe the best chance of those kids being raised with reasonable limits is for you to stop cheating with their mother and allow their parents the best chance of recovering their marriage?

Her kids already have a father. Her marriage to her husband was none of your business and the parenting of THEIR kids is none of your business.

You had your own wife, marriage, and child that you have responsibilities to. Why would anyone take your concerns for an OW's kids seriously when you have allowed adultery to distract you from your own wife/marriage/child?

A genuine concern for her kids could be exhibited by refusing to be one of her adultery partners. I'm willing to bet that if you went to her kids and apologized for playing a role in the destruction of their family, admit to them it was wrong for you to help her cheat on their father, AND that you will stay out of their home and business, that you will stop the adultery with their mother, THEN they will gain some respect for you.

Again, they already have a father. Why would his children show respect for an OM who showed so little respect for their father?

Whatever parenting problems exist are none of your business and IMHO far less damaging anyway than seeing their mother cheat with OM!

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Wonderful to hear from you, Dr. Harley.

Very inspiring post.

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oneoftwo - just to put things in perspective, it is EXTREMELY rare for Dr. Harley to personally jump into these threads, so try to appreciate the fact that he chose to address your situation directly.

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Howdy, Dr Harley! Good to see you over here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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You are like people sitting in the back of the room at an AA meeting casting stones at all the people that are there after a slip. You know why AA works? Because it doesn't matter whether you are rich or poor, doesn't matter what your drug is, it doesn't matter how bad it was, there is no better or worse problem... everyone is equal, everyone has a problem, and everyone can support. But not you, you are better than anyone else.

AA does not support anyone in DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR. AA helps people STOP DRINKING, it does not help people devise clever rationalizations to continue drinking. And that is what you are seeking, a way to continue drinking along with some folks who will support your downfall. You won't find that in AA and you won't find it here.

You didn't have a "slip," you are on a BINGE and don't want to stop.

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You people are so judgmental.

Well, of course they are. Decent, civilized people are supposed to judge right from wrong. Our prisons are full of those who CAN'T and that is exactly where they belong. Your problem is that you haven't been judging right from wrong and you can see where that has led.

Wake up, friend, you are making decisions that will wreck your life. Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.

Last edited by MelodyLane; 01/02/08 07:25 PM.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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My question to you now, John...

Now that you know what Dr. Harley believes on the issue, will you just pack up and leave since you didnt hear what you wanted? Or will you stay to explore this more with us and maybe find out what is what?

Dr. Harley is THE expert on marriage, adultery and how to repair marriages. He has a better success rate than anyone out there. So, he has proven himself as the expert in this. You can ignore him (and us) and go find someone to validate what you want. That is your option.

Hopefully, there is still something inside you that will tell you to stay and to work thru this. And that thru that effort, you can end up righting your life for you, for your kids...and even for Jane.

I know some on here will bet that you will just leave. I am praying the Lord convicts you enough that you will stay and seek the truth.

Oh, and ItIsWhatItIs is correct! It is a rare occasion that the good Dr. comes onto these threads. So, he must see something in here.

Maybe you should explore that a little.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
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Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
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"I have read several of the MB books, and let me say that if I could have a relationship that encapsulated all of the teachings, I think I could be the happiest person in the world. Unfortunately that isn’t the way it is, and that is why I am reaching out. My other half thinks the Policy of Joint Agreement is stupid and unachievable. She has read The Basics per my request as well as starting “His needs her needs for parents” but she feels most of it is unrealistic."

I'm curious as to how your wife responded to MB principles?
When you discussed the Policy of Joint Agreement with your wife did she think it was stupid and unachieveable?

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'John' -

I don't remember EVER seeing a post here from Dr. Harley himself (and i've posted off and on here for years)!

I hope you don't just go away because you aren't being todl what you want to hear...

Most likely your marriage to your wife could have been saved using MB principles. But it's highly unlikely that your relationship with 'Jane' can be saved.

My guess is that like most, your adultery had more to do with not knowing MB principles to apply to your marriage, and like ALL marriages things started getting stale after a while... Then along came OW and you experienced the thrill of being 'in love' so you naturally assumed that she was 'the one' - not your wife.

However, the OW sounds like she might be a serial adulterer. She is already cheating on you with an OM before the two of you are even married, right? I was married to a serial cheater for 25 years. You've already been warned about the extremely low odds of success with a relationship that started out as adultery... But are you also aware of the extremely low success rate with a serial adulterer? The odds are really stacked against you for two reasons now!

Aren't you wondering yet what lies she's telling the new OM about you in order to justify her cheating on you too? She's probably telling him the same stuff she told you about her husband...

IMHO you owe it to your X-wife, your daughter, the OW's children, the OW's father, and to yourself, to stop the adultery and to work at recovering your marriage using MB principles. Regardless of how dead you felt your marriage was, or how long you were separated while waiting for the divorce to be final, the facts remain that you are involved in adultery, possibly with a serial cheater, and you did not employ MB principles to really give your wife/marriage the best chance to succeed.

Why not end the adultery, offer to reconcile with your wife using MB principles, and then if it doesn't work, spend some time being alone before dating somebody new? Oh, and BTW don't date somebody who is married... that IS adultery and is unlikely to result in a successful relationship no matter how strong your desire or feelings (addictive craving) are initially.

Last edited by meremortal; 01/03/08 06:21 AM.
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