Consider two scenarios:

Scenario one:
A BS wife vents here at MB and complains about her FWH. He has a serious lack of romantic behavior towards her and she compared this with the enthusiasm he demonstrated during the courtship of the OW. He bought her flowers, there were frequent and very long phone calls and he took her on romantic walks in moonlight. Now having returned home to the BS he is hiding behind a paper or looking at TV. Everything is back to the same old way. He is not giving her much attention at all apart from a business like interaction in running the house and raising the kids.



Scenario two:
A BS husband vents here at MB and complaints about the behavior of his FWW. She has a deep lack of enthusiasm in SF and he compares this to the creativity, willingness and enthusiasm she demonstrated in SF with the OM. Or perhaps she is totally unwilling to have SF with her BS at all. But with the OM she was creative, took the initiative, gave BJs, and often spent two times two hours in her car after a stressful day at work just to have an hour of SF with the OM.



I have in the years since I came to MB seen quite a lot of both types of threads. It is my observation that the responses to these two scenarios are quite, quite different:


Scenario one: Both men and woman will post to the thread. But not necessarily very many. People will mostly focus on what she can do ("you can only change yourself"). All responses will be very sympathetic and understanding to the poster. And people will explain the theory of withdrawal symptoms and say that this is temporary. And if this is the way it has always been, then the advice would still be plan A and patience. They will explain that it is unfair, but the BS will have to do most of the work in recovery. All will agree that the FWH is behaving like a jerk.
Even if she was very frustrated and angry in her post, no poster will suggest she is abusive to her husband or refusing him SF or imply that she has a hidden agenda of controlling her H.



Scenario one: If the poster sounds frustrated and angry a lot of posters will respond. Most of them Women. Quite a lot will assume that he is abusive or disrespectful towards his W. He will be warned that if he does not drastically change his way of thinking his M is doomed.
Unlike scenario one it is taken for granted that he has done a poor job of plan A. He is explained that if he just would begin to fulfill all his W's EN he will get much better SF then the OM ever got. Also that it is wrong for him to wish for what the OM got.
No poster will actually write that it is OK for his W to choose not to fulfill his EN. But many will indicate that his wish is a "wrong way of thinking", and it is thus not difficult to read between the lines that her lack of enthusiasm is understandable. He must also understand that she was an other (and lesser) person when she was with the OP and that he must not compare her behavior towards the OP with what the BS gets.



Links to relevant scenario-two threads so you can see for yourself:
Link 1 Krazy71's thread
Link 2 Frank's thread
*****Edited to say: Link 2 is not like described above. It has many reflective and interesting posts. Worth to read! ******
Scenario one you have all seen so many times that no links are required.


I) Ladies: Why is scenario one considered more of an acceptable EN request then scenario two is?


II) My humble opinion is that if he really starts to fulfill all his wife's Ens: Buys her flowers, gives her undivided attention every second, walks with her in the moonlight, buys her flowers again, talks to her on the phone several times during the working hours, does the laundry for her every day, gives her compliments and buys her flowers, then, eventually, she will change towards him. And yes there will be some change in the SF department as well. Perhaps her eyes will turn moist during SF. And she will start to cling to him afterwards, and he may hear emotions in her voice when she says"I love you!".


But it will not give him enthusiastic, creative, erotic or exciting SF. Wives seems to keep that kind of behavior for the other men out there. That kind of SF is not meant for husbands.
One female poster wrote this several years ago:
She had several ONS experiences during her single days with strangers she told us. But with her H it was different. With him everything had to be emotionally connected before she could have SF. From the way she said so apparently everyone had to see that as obvious. For some reason I didn't. It must be a male/ female thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll bite on this one...but I'm not sure I understand your scenarios...


In scenario one you ask...
Even if she was very frustrated and angry in her post, no poster will suggest she is abusive to her husband or refusing him SF or imply that she has a hidden agenda of controlling her H.

how is she refusing SF or have a controlling agenda if he isn't doing anything with her.....??

ark^^ you've lost me...

Thanks for the question!
No one takes for granted that her problem is a a result from from her actions. On the other hand many posters asume that the BS in scenario two is the cause of the problem he experienses.
I am sorry if I explained poorly.

Frank, here is a copy of something I posted several months ago which touches on your topic of interest. (names removed)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With regards to the sex issues in marriage here are my thoughts in general.

I find the general cultural attitude towards a husband's desire for sex with his wife reprehensible. (Warning generalizations ahead). Husbands are treated as if they are dirty pigs, horn dogs with nothing else on their mind but sex. They find themselves going through incomprehensible, everchanging hoops in the hopes that their wife just might this time say yes. Sex with their own wife becomes an exercise that seems especially created for frustration.

After reading several different marriage forums over the years, I have seen men post about their sexual longing for their wives. I have seen their spirit crushed by rejection, their masculinity slowly eroded under a morass of wifely apathy. And they don't get much sympathy and understanding at home or on forums. I'm not talking about men who are bad husbands, I'm talking about average joes who have their faults and shortcomings and who may not be perfect, but who try to do the right thing most of the time.

I have seen women post (after the marriage has exploded in infidelity or divorce) that they didn't know how important sex was to their husband. That they realize now how much of an issue it was. I'm not talking about women who are bad wives, I'm talking about average jills who have their faults and shortcomings, and who try to do the right thing most of the time.

The traditional dance of marital sex among a high percentage of married couples ends up twisting both men and women. Somewhere, we have believed lies and it shows up in our attitudes within our marriages.

Can sexual desires be taken to an extreme? Absolutely.

But so can sexual rejection. So can the attitude that sex is something that must be earned. So can the attitude that men have no feelings or sensitivities that need be considered.

Do I think ****** legaleeze inshrouded paragraphs of sex are over the top? Yeah, it sounds like he was trying to get everything in there before the negotiations started whittling away at it. Sounds like he was writing from a place of anger and frustration - which is not a place most conducive to reasonableness.

OTOH, I see nothing evil, or perverse in a man wanting to have sex with his wife daily. A man who says so out loud on a coed forum is probably going to get a few responses diagnosing him with sexual addiction. In fact, I've seen that happen several times.

Women often don't seem to think there's anything perverse about it either, since early on in relationships (dating, engaged, early marriage), it's not uncommon for multiple sex acts to occur in one day. So, what changed, her or him?

Just some grist for your mill. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I can only give you my side, in the hopes that you can see a female perspective a little better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In my sitch, my older brother raised me to think it is evil, to be avoided, and I'm a terrible person for wanting it. Just to keep me from getting pregnant in my teens. Thirty years later, I still have issues.

Despite having an amazing H who always takes care of me first and often more than I want, I still hold back. I still have trouble just saying, hey let's go do it, right now. Even though I know he wishes I would. It has become a chore, if only because I know he wants it so much (we average 2-3 times a week, married 30 years) and he's always thinking about it.

I have told him (and he agreed early on but didn't hold to his promise) that I would appreciate non-SF time together, so that I wouldn't be afraid to hug him or touch him without him thinking he was going to get some SF every time I touch him, but he renegged. So now I don't touch him unless I AM ready, because he instantly turns on.

That said, having a H who basically does nothing for DS around the house, doesn't even fix the 'man' stuff like holes in the ceiling or cracked plaster or mold on the garage or....anything...when he DOES actually turn around and fix something or help, I DO get more invested in SF. The little he does just fills my 'love bucket' (as he puts it) to the brim so much that I'm thrilled with him, and he gets the benefit. So why doesn't he make the correlation, and do more? Even when I tell him that's why I'm so excited, it doesn't lead to him doing more.

I don't think it's that men or women are DJing the other side so much as that they want different things out of life. Men's urges are there to help humans procreate; women's are there to help us survive. Maybe we just weren't meant to be so analytical. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank,

I responded to Krazy's thread and was ignored, but my point is very important, so I will restate it for you and others <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Affairs are addictions that cause chemical activity in the brain that is not normally there, except in the very beginning stages of a romantic relationship. These chemicals cause people to sexually desire and even crave the other person.

You just don't get this type of chemical happening in marriage, normally. These types of chemicals in the brain make women want to act wild in the sack.

So the brain in an adultrous R is producing chemicals that make a woman highly sexual towards her AP. The brain is NOT normally making these chemicals in a stable marriage.

A good question for us who want to have a sexually passonate marriage would be how to get these chemicals going on with our spouses.

John Gray (mars and venus in the bedroom) has some good ideas and feels a lot of the lack of sexual desire is probably organic, and can be treated that way.

Al Sears MD feels that a lot of women (and some men) do not have enough testosterone (male hormone that both sexes need to have high sexual desire).

I take a herbal formula that mimmics some hormones I am lacking, that make me feel sexual desire more than I have been recently, and my H says it makes him feel sexual, too. (my husband only has a problem in the winter because he suffers from a deficiency in the winter, no sun up here for the most part).

Also, resentment is a huge desire killer...but we have the MB methods to a great marriage to help in that area.

JMHO, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

frank..

in scenario one what are her actions...
I see his in/actions...
and her only action as complaining

I don't see the leap to being a SF issue as much more a communication issue....

ARK^^

One more thing is that men and women are very, very different in arousal. Men can become aroused immediately with just a thought or glimps of something sexy.

Women DO NOT become aroused this easily. It takes time and attention to arouse a woman. Woman also need time before they are touched in certain places, unlike men who want to be touched in certain places immediately.

So you can see, how there might be a problem. Not too many people feel like having sex if they are not aroused, not even to fulfill a top EN. It's a bit different from RC or good conversation, and must be looked at and treated differently. IMHO

This is a great question. I look at it as the double standard. I don't think most women think that a man's need for SF is an important need.

Watch a show that has a woman saying she cheated because her husband "Just wasn't there for her" (Whatever that means) and all the women nod in sympathy as if to say "We Understand!". Then they put on a man who cheats for the sex and all those understanding people are not understanding any more! A lot of women just think that men's needs are stupid.

As a matter of fact just look at the link below. It is from the emotional needs section but it has to with porn but in this case it is a woman using it and neglecting her husband. I was shocked to read a lot of the responses. I have never read on any thread how porn by a man was the woman's fault but apparently everything is the guys fault.

NOTE: Starfish was the voice of reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1

I guess the hardest part to grasp is why when you cheat on a spouse and then come back to the marriage with no SF and the guy is suppose to accept it. I think this is just a way to continue the abuse.

If a man decided that to even things out he would withhold financial support from his wife..Well that would be mean and cruel. That is just something that you should not do. But yet it is somehow acceptable to withhold a males most important need because it is just sex... Very sad

And then to add insult to injury, they find another guy and give the SF to another man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> So it is OK to withhold it from an H because you don't feel like it and claim no Libido but then to find another guy. OUCH.

ihadenough

don't you think there is something bizarre which has nothing to with sex about a husband who monitors the sex toy drawer....

and then sets up recorders...I guess to catch his wife using sex toys ....

to me none of that is a sex issue...

it is clearly clearly clearly a communication issue...

is it not...

infact most sexual issues...on these boards has little to do with sex...
and mostly to do with poor poor communication...

ARK

Sex is a man's most important need? Or is it the love that he feels from and for his wife when he has sex with her?

I know many men who would not describe this need as his most important.

Do you think that it becomes so important because of it's lack? Like it takes on a life of it's own?

Now you are thinking that because I am a woman I am saying it is "just" sex, but that is not what I am saying. I would feel very disheartened if I thought that was my H's most important need from me.

I don't think you can directly compare SF with other ENs at all. SF can be taken against someone's will (rape). I don't think there's a way to force someone to be affectionate to you.

Here's some reasons why SF is different for women:

Women especially are raised from the cradle to think that SF and any desire for it is something evil. Suddenly, we are expected to "put out" when we are married. But nobody wants their spouse to think they are evil either. Can you see the conflict?

This notion can also lead to other problems. An H who wants frequent SF may seem like he's using his W. That's what we woman have been taught - men are just out there for one thing, right?

Men are probably 95-100% guaranteed to fully enjoy an episode of SF. Women are not even close - there's just way, way too many factors that can intercede. Other factors include worrying about any aspect of her life - kids, work, family visits, money, housework, etc., etc. or just simple fatigue.

Another thing about women is that SF can be painful or at the very least uncomfortable. We don't talk about it much, not even to our girlfriends or physicians but it's true.

Now, how all of this translates into the same woman that is wild during an affair is beyond me, except maybe for the first point where she may not be as concerned with whether her AP views her as evil or not, wouldn't everything else apply?

"a herbal formula"

Oh, Please share. I am holding on to the hope that is will also give me some energy at 3 am when my FWH is in the mood, knowing that I have to get up at 5 am and go to work, while he will sleep till 10 or 11.

Who

Women especially are raised from the cradle to think that SF and any desire for it is something evil. Suddenly, we are expected to "put out" when we are married. But nobody wants their spouse to think they are evil either. Can you see the conflict?

I was not raised this way...my friends weren't raised this way...
most people I know these days my age...enjoy a healthy sex life with their spouses....

a lot of people were raised in families where the mom and dad showed appropriate affection and kindness towards one another.....

Men are probably 95-100% guaranteed to fully enjoy an episode of SF. Women are not even close - there's just way, way too many factors that can intercede. Other factors include worrying about any aspect of her life - kids, work, family visits, money, housework, etc., etc. or just simple fatigue.

I just don't agree with any of this.....all these things exist allll the time....

kids, work, family visits, money, housework, etc., etc. or just simple fatigue.

those things exist 24/7....and I'll be dayummed if I let any of those things get in the way of a good romp

If a women is letting those factors impede her sex life with her husband...

make a pot of coffee....

shove the bills in a drawer....(for fifteen minutes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)

turn the sweeper off...

kick the inlaws the heck out....

I would never pass up on chance to escape...

crap if the caveWomen could do it...and they could be eaten by dinosaurs...!!! OK I know they weren't really together the dinosaurs and cavepeople......but if cavemen could procreate in those times...

surely
surely we women got it easier than that....


and SF is NOT supposed to be paiful...if it is...see a doctor...
or find a different way....
ARK

duck and cover
duck and cover
duck and cover

I look at it as two completely and separate scenarios which really have very little in common.

In either situation, the affair was WRONG.

Whome,

I am currently taking the following and it is working very well. My H is taking all but the Shatavari, and he tells me the Gotu Kola makes him aroused. I also take Omega fish oils, and several vitamins.

I am telling you the shatavari really is helping me. I used to take many different combinations of different female herbs, but my H's best friend started selling the above and raving about them so we decided to give them a try...and like.





It seems to me like the Gotu Kola may increase blood flow to the organs and maybe why it makes him feel aroused when he takes it.

If you want the brand name, we are taking Swanson, but I was a BS major in Natural Health and know of a couple of respected brands that I would trust besides what we are buying now.

Thanks Josie, I assume that this is available at any place like GMC?

Best,

Who

In well-balanced marriages, emotionally sound wives (though there are ebbs and flows) do sustain mature passion and erotic desire for their husbands. When an addiction to affair sex is present, it is indicative of their inability to harmonize their femininity within the marriage. Marital intimacy and affair sex are wholly distinct creatures--the former is life affirming while the latter routinely becomes life wrecking.

Frank57,

You have raised an interesting scenario. I agree that when the H is complaining about the lack of SF from his FWS, the board does seem skewed vs the BS of a FWH. I suspect that when a sexually frustrated H comes here, his frustrations must resonate with some of the female posters here, me included.

I have another scenario for you to consider, the BS who des try to fulfill her H’s SF need and yet the FWH is not happy with the wife’s attempts. How do you help the BS and the xFWH?

I am a BS, was one of the wives that did not understand the depths of the sexual drive in my H. During the crisis, I became the lover he dreamed about, as a result, my H slept with both me and the OW throughout the A. I did not realize that at the time, I was the proverbial BS, with my head in the sand.

Now, we are 4 years from a second DD. Up to the second DD, I tried to maintain the sexual drive with my H, giving it my very best shot, initiating at least 2-3 times a week for 3 years. It got to a point when my H said to me; it is not always about sex. He was complaining that I wanted to make love too often. Of course, that is when I discovered he was contacting the same OW again... I remember one night when I reached out to him and he claimed he could not sleep and wanted to go downstairs to watch TV. Of course, he was waiting for me to fall asleep so he could call the OW.

When I found out about the renewed contact all of my attempts seemed to matter for nothing, I was trying to fulfill his emotional needs, and he still contacted the OW.

Fast forward 4 years later. There have been numerous outbursts from my H on how unhappy he is with out sex life. When I try he accuses me of doing it out of obligation, not because I find him attractive. One night he even cut up my sexy underwear, using a pair of scissors, he proceeded to cut up my thongs and sexy nightwear saying I never felt comfortable wearing it and as a result he would destroy the garments.

In April of this year, my H experienced a major meltdown. It was his 47th birthday; he was very upset with me, why can’t I initiate sex more often, why do I find time for everything else in my life but him. He complained that I would find time to work out every night (walking or via DVD) but not for him. I also reminded him that I work outside of the home everyday, I face at least a 3 hour commute total to and from the office, and I come home and cook dinner, do the laundry and work out. I usually get home at 6:30 PM, will have dinner on the table by 7:30 PM, go walking (with him) for 2 miles and be back home by 8:45 PM. I will then do some abdominal and butt exercises, some yoga then shower. I am usually done with my day when I fall into bed by 10:00 PM.

After his birthday outburst I tried harder. I would initiate at least 2-3 times a week. In November there was yet another blow out from him. This was after a weekend of great sex where we slept in until 11:00 AM, and made love, which I initiated. The complaint this time was because he is frustrated that I only want to make love in the morning, not at night. Whenever we make love at night, I find it very difficult to fall asleep.

Since his last outburst, I just recently discovered some porn sites on his computer. He was never into porn before, was not into watching movies or “How to sex tapes”. I bought the tapes for us to watch together and get inspired. However, my H never had any interest in the tapes, the last time we watched one together was at least 2 years ago.

Now I frequently check his history, and the same site comes up everyday. The all adult channel is what he goes into. I cannot tell how much time he is spending there. Since I have discovered his porn interest, he rarely initiates SF with me, and when he does, he is not into foreplay. He was very much into OS, which was wonderful for me as I am now entering menopause and therefore, OS makes it much easier for me. Now, I am lucky to have it at all, and when he does, he is not much into it. There is a marked difference from how it was before. I will say I am very generous with the bjs and have been since DD.

My question for all of you men out there, what do I do now? I am very much thinking of the D word, actually for a couple of years now. My H’s A granted me a “get out of jail free” card as some posters here have referred. I would have never thought I would come to this stage but I am thinking I cannot satisfy my H’s SF needs. I am suspicious that he is a sex addict, but until recently, did not exhibit any of the signs.

Thanks,
NOMO

Swanson's has a website or catalog from which to order. But you can also find individual herbs or preparations at stores like GNC or other natural foods or vitamin stores like Vitamin Shoppe.