Thank you for a good laugh. I really needed one tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, this wife did. When my husband viewed porn, he excluded me from his sex life. He didn't view it and then come find me. I lost out. I like SF. I felt the porn images were better than me. Since he's stopped viewing porn, our SF is much better.

I am positively thrilled by all the response to this thread. Thank you everybody!

Ark: like Grapelin said, the two scenarios do not have anything in common accept that they are two unmet EN's that receive very different level of understanding and acceptance.


From all the posters here Nomo, Catperson and Roaduntraveled with their stories of neglect from their H's touched me the most. My topic was not to say that abused and neglected women should invest even more to do their "wifely duties".


My point is: I would expect a FWS, husband or wife, to want to bend backwards to make amends for the betrayal. I would expect they would very much want to fulfill the EN's of the BS, whether the EN's are communication, affection, recreational activities, flowers or SF.


I can understand that some people have barriers in their personalities that can make fulfillment of certain ENs difficult. I have a god friend who is close to mute. He is a trustworthy friend and a god father and it is pleasant to be around. But there is no talk in him.
But, if a FWS has proven that he or she was able to talk, be romantic, or to be active in SF with the OP, then I am not impressed if they don't even try with their BS!


I did not mean in this part to focus exclusively on SF. Perhaps what was most important to me when I wrote the first post (se the title) was to show that SF is not fully accepted as an EN, and that there are differences in how men and women think and feel about it. And I am glad for the support I got on that topic. My last section focused on the difference between the SF of an A and the SF of the M. Sad really. I will take that up in a post following this one.


My main topic now is laziness in the job of fulfilling the ENs of your S. What really provoked me to write was the acceptance given to the wife of Krazy71 in not trying to fulfill an important EN in her husband. Now we dont know the full story of Krazy and his wife. So let us leave their specific case, and talk general terms:


It is my joy and daily happiness to fulfill the ENs of my W. She has attention, communication, affection and recreational activities on the top of her list. And it is a daily goal for me to try to make her happy. I am not without faults. Most importantly I am not reliable on time, coming home later than agreed upon from work, and then I am often tired and uninspiring to be around. This is my failure.
But making her happy is my most important motive. And it is a joy to fulfill her ENs because they are means to get there.

She also loves me very much. I am certain of that. And she wants to make me happy. To my sorrow though, it is difficult for her to remember that my ENs are different from hers. To me, if I have to ask for it all the time an activity ceases to be an EN fulfillment.
When I feel I must beg for SF it loses its appeal. When SF must be confined to the martial bed and must involve the same procedure as last year the excitement wears off. She can dress in a feminine fashion when we are to visit others or receive visitors, but never for me if I don't beg for it. What is then the message to me?


People here telling about SF 2-3 times a week? I wish it was that often a month!
While I miss the act in itself, what is more important to me is the absence in her of the urge I feel in myself to fulfill her ENs. Why is it not a joy in her when it is a joy in me to fulfill hers? I miss the attitude that my ENs are important!


I know she loves me very much. I know it. I can hear it in her voice and see it in her eyes. But why does she forget all the time what my ENs are? ("I just don't think of sex all the time.") When you have to beg for something it is not felt as a gift gladly given when you get it.


Just for the information: there have never been an A in our M. We are both faithful. I should really have been posting on the EN forum, but was welcomed here several years back and have stayed. Like JL I am here to learn. (See, I am allmost in the same leage is him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )


My point is: when someone has proven beyond doubt that they are capable of fulfilling certain ENs to the OP, lat us say communication and romance to reduce the focus on SF. If they have proven that they can be masters of courtship with an OW. Then it is laziness and NOT acceptable if they don't even try with their S.
I also believe very much in the saying:"Fake it until you make it." Trying very often leads you to a goal. By not trying you will be stuck where you are.

I think weawer, that you have a very real point here. I think this is correct.
It is just that this knowledge is so depressive! The WS is left with those fabuless memories of the biologically indused passion in the A and then returns back to the same old same dull BS. Why should the BS even concider staying married to the WS if they are to be daily measured against this?


This would have been my gratest stumbling stone in an attampt to recovery. I would not accept to be measured against a perfect fantasy. It would make my uncertainties and lack of self esteem explode. And then if the WS will not even try with their BS!
Forget it! The door is over there!

Brix wrote:

"martial intimacy and affair sex are wholly distinct creatures"


I think this is at the hearth of the difference between the male and female view on this. For a loving husband SF is the primary expression of his love for his wife, and because of his love language, the primary language in which his wife can communicate love to him. Most WW know this of course and use SF to make the OP bond with them in the A.


But there is no distinction to most men between SF and SF. When a (F)WH says to his BS "it was only sex" that is just bul$h. He gave his most precious love-gift to the OP. Period.


A male BS is typically mostly disturbed by the physical aspects of the betrayal because it is his #1 love language, and it was given with enthusiasm to the OP. Often with a lot more enthusiasm then it is usually given to him.


For some reason a married woman think differently regarding her H. Affair SF is different and it is acceptable to do things in affair SF that she would not dream of doing with her H. With her H SF should be affectionate and emotional. With the OP it can be erotic, physical and exciting.


Why not try to invest some of this into your M? Why "distinct creatures"? Why do we think differently?




(By the way, I live on the other side of "the pond" and post out of sync with most of you, so my response is delayed. I don't ignore you!)

Wow Frank, leave it to you to get a good discussion going. Good job! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can sympathize and empathize with a lot of what has been posted.

As Ark noted, communication is really the main problem. I found the book HNHN t/b of great help. Dr Harley clearly shows that in general men and women have different communication styles. I also learned that sex for men vs women is different. In general sex for men is closer related to the physical act whereas for women, sex starts in the mind. So when an H says good and kind things to his W or does simple things that endears his W, then often actual physical intercourse is not just the act but the passion associated with 'making love' comes into play.

For some couples (maybe more than we realize <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ) having sex is a chore. Who likes to be awaken in the middle of the night to find someone groping or 'fully engaged' with no passion? If it was anyone else we would be kicking and screaming....... RAPE... or HELP I'm being ATTACKED!?!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Yet this does happen in many, many M's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So in addition to communication, being kind and considerate helps to restore a healthy and happy R in our M's.

I recommend reading HNHN. It helps improve communication and put balance and care back into the M. Then no matter what scenario comes up, as a couple we will know how to handle it.

This can be summed up with even simpler phrases:
1. Do to others as you would have them do to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2. Love your W (or H) as you love yourself
3. Put the needs of the other ahead of your own.

Really, life only becomes complicated when selfishness gets in the way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Frank...

It is and was my opinion that Krazy had serious unresolved emotional issues,,,scars...and battle wounds from his wifes affair that had no other option but to spill out and over in to his intimacy life...

it is my opinion that Krazy and his spouse to heal this are not well served by an opinion board but if desired true recovery....needed serious counsel...

I pray he goes for it..with her....

ARK

Just for the record, I am not abused or neglected. I was just illustrating the "other side of the coin" and why SF may not be as frequent, passionate, and energetic and that after children arrive, a woman's body does change and will take time to heal/return to normal.

I am coming to learn that what went wrong with my marriage is unexpressed and unreasonable expectations. My husband had them of me...and I had them of my husband. Look where it led us...

Maybe if both genders just tried to "walk in the others" shoes, even for just a moment, this pain and hurt of adultery wouldn't be so common. I certainly plan to teach my children much differently than I was ever taught...or lack to taught, I should say.

Frank, well said. I very much agree. fwiw, my H bends over backwards to give me great bedroom time, I'm sure that's because it's what he wants. And I try to reply in kind, but most of the time I'm so depressed and exhausted and bitter I can't muster the desire or energy.

But you're right. It amazes me that, when people get back together after an A, they don't completely turn the tables upside down to do everything differently. They often go right back to what they were doing. So many issues with people...

Have you tried different ways of getting that spark? Like shopping 'that' aisle at Barnes and Noble together? We have found lots of fun things there that have made things better, and it's more legitimate than going to one of those video shops. Or tried going to a place that offers double massages, side by side? Think outside the box so that it feels more like romance to her, which is probably her key?

I DO understand your points RoadUntraveled, but I don't think you see MINE.

I am simply stating that there is a SINGLE, almost ULTIMATE EN in most men which when met, effects almost every single aspect of his persona, mood, and sense of loyalty and love to his wife. That is SF. Plain and simple. I would venture to guess that this single act, done in HIS MOST SATISFIED MANNER would trump almost every other EN for most men, and not only that, WOULD FILL SEVERAL OF THE OTHER NEEDS AT THE SAME TIME SUCH AS HIS 'DESIRE' FOR AFFECTION ETC. I believe most men would be less inclined to be critical, and most other negative behaviors associated with marriage, if this single EN was totally and completely fulfilled.

In your post RUtr, you give several very valid and appropriate ENs. But, they have no similar corollary to SF with a man. Sure, taking the kids for 30min each night would be great. But, I doubt that those 30 min would consistently deposit the same degree of Love Units, that the wife would garner with a red, lacy teddy for 30 mins.

Stopping by the store for 5min would be great, and should be done. I give you that... but even if done consistently with a smile on his face, it would NOT typically consistently deposit the same Love Units garnered by a wife who pushes her husband into a closet as soon as he came home and gave him a 5 min BJ.

A candlelight dinner is EXCELLENT and would probably deposit alot of Love Units... but if he did it every night, the Love Units would become fewer and fewer until you longed for pizza in front of the TV. However, rousing SF done everynight (or as often as he desired) would CONTINUE to deposit significant and consistent Love Units EVERY TIME.

In this post, I am not trying to diminish a wife's needs AT ALL, I am not trying to diminsh the importance of a husband's obligation to meet and exceed those needs. Please don't think that is my goal. What I am saying, is that men don't have a specific correlary to SF for MOST women. Men must constantly try to figure out how BEST to meet the current need. We must figure out what that need is, address it, and meet it. I accept and fully acknowledge that fact. My point is that, SF is a straight forward and HUGE depositor of Love Units for almost every man. I believe women underestimate its penultimate importance to their husbands because it is not as important to them. The problem is, me don't have just one thing they can really key on to ensure that women have the huge Love Unit deposits constantly flowing. We are at a disadvantage in that regard. Doesn't excuse us nor does it relinquish our duty to constantly strive.

Mopey,

My H just recently started looking at porn, previously it was not an option for him, he said it was too artificial. I suspect he is looking at porn to somehow control his sexual impulses and not attack me for not fulfilling his needs. Does that make sense? I genuinely believe he thinks looking at porn will help him meet his SF need without involving me.

He is trying to solve his problem, however, he does not yet understand how destructive this type of behavior is.

What we have here is an impasse, I have done all I can and it is still not enough for him. He recognizes my frustration, and is trying to fix this his way.

Thanks for the advice on the website. I will definitely look into it this weekend.

Thanks,
NOMO

graplin,

You asked the question "does my H really know how I feel about the situation?" I think he does, I have mentioned divorce to him over this last year as an option for us. He was very shocked that I would even bring it up as I was so opposed to a D during his whole A.

I think him looking at porn sites is his method of trying to work through his issues with SF. Whenever I point out to him that I am trying to meet his need for SF, he agrees. He knows that I am trying, but it is still not enough.

I thought sex 3-4 times a week was more than reasonable but I believe it is a DJ to my H. He alone knows what his tolerance level is, and just because it is not what I think it should be, it does not mean he can come to terms with it. I asked him last night if everyday would satisfy him, he said no, it is not the frequency necessarily, but the quality.

This is a huge revelation, he is interested in having the very best SF, not the quickie or the routine SF that we have due to whatever reasons.

I believe we have the very best SF at least once a week, and he wants more of that type of SF. However, the question is how much more, 3-4 times a week more, 2-3 times a week more? I do not know.

What I also believe is that whatever the frequency or quality, his needs will change once again.

My H said to me yesterday that one of his resolutions for 2008 was not to have a meltdown over SF. I think that explains that he is very aware that I am close to walking away from this marriage.

My H has previously never wanted to go to counseling before, was adamant that it would not work. Now he is more open to the idea, and has asked me to locate a therapist. I asked him if he would consider counseling via telephone and he said no, in person would be better. I have yet to find a therapist, there are so many bad ones out there, I am a bit leery about finding a good one.

Thanks for following up with me graplin. I just wish my H and I can finally have some peace between us.

NOMO

Ah...there it is...

and just what is "totally and completely fulfilled"? Because if we women do one tiny little thing differently than the men want it, we miss the "sticker" and end up hurting the love bank instead of helping it.

Here's where that criticism comes in:
"You aren't..."
"You weren't..."
"You didn't..."

I am more than willing to have sex with my husband most of the time...but I find he ends up more unhappy because of something perceived as "done wrong".

The fact that this particular EN is so high in importance on a man's mind doesn't make it any easier to fill. Just a "roll in the hay" won't do.

We must figure out what that need is, address it, and meet it. I accept and fully acknowledge that fact. My point is that, SF is a straight forward and HUGE depositor of Love Units for almost every man. I believe women underestimate its penultimate importance to their husbands because it is not as important to them. The problem is, me don't have just one thing they can really key on to ensure that women have the huge Love Unit deposits constantly flowing. We are at a disadvantage in that regard. Doesn't excuse us nor does it relinquish our duty to constantly strive.
******************************************

I think the need is devotion.

When I have felt that my H wants and loves me...is devoted to me and our marriage and our relationship I WANT to have LOTS of sex w/ him...and not just for him but for me.
Taht is when it's the best for me.

I want him to want me above all fantasy.......I want a man who enjoys me and my body and what works FOR me...not some guy who compares me and my sexual needs to someone who he THINKS is more enthusiastic?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

what do you consider an enthusiastic lover?
a woman who wants to please you?

Become a devoted Husband who doesn't compare and whine about sex...make it about HER....not you. That attitude makes me want to please my H.

Ahh... Road... I know that it cannot or is very unlikely to ever be totally fulfilled. And I was not trying to say that women should always do it completely for his utter fulfillment and that if they fail, they are a failure.

I am speaking more in theory. It is just the 'thought' that if it could be absolutely 'fulfilled' then this would be the effect. I am sorry if I seem to pressure women by thinking that I expect all women should be able to do it. That is like saying that all men should be everything to their wives at all times. I know that it can't be, but in theory, if we could, it would have 'what effect'. This is how I was meaning it. I took the discussion as a theoretical practice in which we took apart ENs and evaluated them (somewhat in a vacuum) so to speak. What if men's SF could be totally and completely met, is there a female corollary to it with the same outcome?


I hear the trouble in your posts about your husband's apparent dissatisfaction with SF. I am not trying to pin his dissatisfaction on you. NOT AT ALL.

What if men's SF could be totally and completely met, is there a female corollary to it with the same outcome?
*******************************

I think it's devotion.
and maturity....not puppy dog devotion.
a devoted, confident, sexually and emotionally mature husband is very sexually appealing to a woman.
When the devotion (to me and the marriage) need is met, I feel respected and loved and protected.....and safe...safe to be sexually uninhibited w/ a man I love.