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Joined: Sep 2001
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ark^^ Offline OP
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Truly I do...

I implore all of you out there...

calling for
begging for
demanding for
and asking for...(actually asking for is OK)

but all of you doing any of the above with your WS....in regards for NO CONTACT

to
SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE...

AND

I mean it with all the love I have .....

for your sanity
for your dignity
for your emotional well being.....

stop demanding no contact with a WS and the OP....

for a million reasons....
but lets hit some of them...

lets go over the fact that it takes gobs and gobs of insidious time and brain cells for a WS to engage in the affair...

some are in the form of compartalmentalizing...
they truly seperate their affair actions from having anything to do with spouse or family...they truly train their brains to believe that they are two seperate worlds...not having anything to do with the other....

some are in the form of it just happened
it was meant to be
it was Karma and the universe aligning so that fate stepped in


some rationalize it by villianizing the crap out of BS...
he or she is this
or that
he or she won't let me do this or that
he or she doesn't care...blah blah blah blah...

sucks sucks sucks sucks....
alllllllllllllllllllllllll of it...
sucks......

whats that strange noise in the background after D-day.
why it's the sound of the great THIS SUCKS machine...

and while we all wish think and truly believe that surely upon a WS being caught...being busted...spilling their guts whatever the catalyst for D-Day that magically and logically

NO CONTACT IS INSTANT....

but it's not usually.....

there's too much collateral damage going on for that to happen

there's too much f--- up brain cells engaged to rationalize the affair to imagine that instant no contact will occur...

because the truth is that in the majority of cases there is no instant no contact...

and who knows this better than anyone...

well the master mind behind this site and plan A....
who developed plan a
built
10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000%
on negotiating

NO CONTACT...

now certainly that is the final goal..

but it doesn't come from demanding
from begging
from pleading
from ultimatums...

it comes in its real form when the WS sees the value of no contact.....

look if your posts talks about a recent D-day...
then you most likely should expect contact......

if you understand plan A then contact will should not surprise you.....

believe me more tragic than a marriage that doesn't recover is one that recovers falsely...

under false belief of no contact..because it was demanded..
under false belief in no contact because of threats of punishments...etc...

false belief in the value of no contact is the worst thing out there....

it takes time for a WS to truly wrestle with and process the stark horrible reality of their actions...

not processable instantly
not fixable with just d-day

true recovery takes time....
true re-commitment to marriage and its meaning takes time...

you don't want anyone forced in to it...


speak the pain of contact
speak the pain of their actions...
but don't demand
don't beg
don't threaten.....

shut yer pie hole...
bit your tongue....

and let them see you....
not someone whose words they can use against you....

ARK^^

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Well said! Kudos to you Ark


EA4-7/07,Dday7/29,NC 7/30/07
ME 47 WH 48
Married 30 yrs.
2 DD,4 GC
Found out
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So well said...I wish I read this on Dday...

My story proves all you said...

On Dday I begged H to stay...H moved out to a hotel with OW.
Two days after Dday, my inlaws begged and cried to WH to come back...His sister and sister in law begged him also...

H came back on that day...but his heart stayed with OW for a whole year if not longer and I'm still now sure if he is still harboring resentment that he was "forced" to come home...

There was long and painful withdrawals and two contacts after he came back...Those days and nights were so painful for both of us...

Intuitively though I did a good plan A when my emotions got even enough...And I started to see my real H more and more now, after almost 18 months after Dday and 9 months after his second attempt of contact (which is the final contact and OW never responded), we are just starting our true recovery and our recovery has been very slow and H is still shutting down and doesn't feel safe talking about his feelings with me...

Begging and reasoning and using his parents, etc to force H to go stay and go NC is one thing I regret...It's not the right way and it leads to a very slow and painful recovery if recovery ever happens...

arc^^, you have such wisedom and compassion, I hope you keep on posting and helping us. I think we still need a lot of guidance at this time, with H doing a lot and feeling genuinly sorry day by day, he is still not expressing his feelings to me and we are still staying at the surface of this recovey...Any advice and guidance will be so appreciated...

Snow

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Ark,

I don't disagree with the intent of your post, but think it may be misunderstood, especially by BH's, who I'm afraid will read your post to mean they should just "hump up" and take it.

There is the "stick" portion of Plan A, also, and IMHO, many BH's miss golden opportunities through indecision and fear to break up their WW's A.

There are many examples currently here on GQ of BH's that look in the rear view mirror after 3-6+ months to see nothing but a few dozen pages of posts for their lack of meaningful effort.

I COMPLETELY agree with making yourself over into the best spouse you can be, but I can't really support putting up with allowing a WS to continue to disrespect you by rubbing your face in an ongoing A, without making a serious attempt to stop the A.

I really am not arguing your point, just hoping you will expand on it.

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ark^^ Offline OP
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I for one do not see plan A having anything to do with making over oneself...

plan A to me is allllllllll about keeping lines of comminication open...

demanding no contact....
does not work

demanding to stop seeing the OP
talking to the OP doesn't work..

it becomes a futile powerstruggle...

the WS sees no reason to end contact...in fact they frantically seek closure...or repair...or worse ways to take the whole affair underground...

plan A is not about taking anything..

it is about speaking of the pain and horrors of continued in other ways than

don't
stop

I am alll for breaking up an affair..

but demanding it doesnt work....

here's what the good doc says about plan ASo, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.


there is nothing in my thoughts about rolling belly up..

ARK

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Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands.

Thank you Arkie!!!

Operative word: N E G O T I A T E

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I'm sorry, but we obviously see this from different perspectives. It appears that you're taking one aspect of Plan A, and emphasizing it to the exclusion of all others.

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It appears that you're taking one aspect of Plan A, and emphasizing it to the exclusion of all others.


Which ones and how so?

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It appears that you're taking one aspect of Plan A, and emphasizing it to the exclusion of all others.


Which ones and how so?

I thought it was obvious ...

Quote
plan A to me is allllllllll about keeping lines of comminication open...


Ark also emphasizes "negotiation", which I took to be an offshoot of "communication".

No mention of improving yourself, working on what you may have been doing wrong in the M pre-A, trying to meet the EN's that are currently being met by the OP, and most importantly ... no mention at all of "exposure".

In my case, "actions" spoke much louder than "words", so IMHO, communication is down the Plan A priority list a little.

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Great post ARK... but I almost skipped it because of the title. I thought perhaps you were posting to one of the trolls and I usually try to avoid the confrontational posts and those that get into huge debate, I don't have the time or stomache for it right now.

You said it so well though. I am proud ;-) to admit that I've been plan Aing my WH and I see some progress.

Thanks for your sharing!!

Soon


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You're my hero, Ark...

The point of Plan A is to make remaining married a better option than throwing the BS away for OP.

When we talk about self improvement, what we really mean is meeting ENs of the WS as much as they allow and killing all love busters in ourself so that the WS's LB$ can build a bigger balance.

Demanding, arguing and shouting in anger will NOT win the WS back and can only cause the chasm to widen between the WS and BS.

What Dr Harley says makes his method different than every one else's methods is that instead of trying to fix the marriage, he attempts to reestablish the love between H & W.

If a BH can make his WW feel that she is in love with him again, she will end the affair more readily than if every moment together is spent trying to dig into problems and trying to fix them.

Fixing it is part of recovery, not Plan A. Unless the marriage is saved, there will be nothing left to fix.

Respect cannot be demanded. Demanding is itself disrespectful.

What really stands in the way is pride.

Mark

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demanding no contact may not work for some...but it does work for some others.

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Well intentioned post Ark.

Repent and turn away from sin, don't "negotiate" with it.

Agree to the BS's conditions (not open to negotiation) for trying recovery and not proceeding directly to "no-go" divorce.

Negotiate no contact?

What is the purpose of a No Contact letter, to stipulate when contact will be tolerated as they negotiate frequency and intensity?

"Begging, groveling, imploring, cake-walking enablement," etc. I am WITH you. Those "BS" activities should NOT be engaged in and if they are, "shut your pie hole!" y'all!

"Get with the program or don't let the door hit you in the [censored] as I swiftly close both my pie hole and it."

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Hey I agree with FH!


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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ark^^ Offline OP
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no rev..
just adressing the hundreds of posts on here with BS SHOCKED that WS are still in contact with WS...

it's rare that saying no more contact works...

great when it does...but not the norm...other wise Dr. Harley wouldnt have said what he said about plan A...

ark

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ark^^ Offline OP
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foreverhers...

here's a little secret...

I think no contact letters are bunk...

and when you MAKE and FORCE an active WS write one..

highschool in my opinion...

no contact letters can be fine ONCE the WS embraces the value of no contact...but by then what's the point...since it is the ACT of no contact that speaks...not a letter or email....

false no contact letters...fodder to bond the OP and WS even more...

wah wah wah they will cry to the OP...he/she maaadddeeee me write this...
I had no choice..

blech...

no contact letters in my opinion....bunk...but it's not my site or program so I don't waste too much energy on them...

ark

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foreverhers...

here's a little secret...

I think no contact letters are bunk...

and when you MAKE and FORCE an active WS write one..

highschool in my opinion...

no contact letters can be fine ONCE the WS embraces the value of no contact...but by then what's the point...since it is the ACT of no contact that speaks...not a letter or email....

false no contact letters...fodder to bond the OP and WS even more...

wah wah wah they will cry to the OP...he/she maaadddeeee me write this...
I had no choice..

blech...

no contact letters in my opinion....bunk...but it's not my site or program so I don't waste too much energy on them...

ark


Might surprise you, ark, but I agree with you on this matter.

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I agree that NC letters are not part of Plan A, they are part of recovery. Dr Harley believes in NC letters.

Actually, given that Plan A is designed to attract a spouse back who is in an active affair as well as self improvement for the BS, I agree that NC have no part of Plan A.

Last edited by bigkahuna; 01/11/08 10:48 PM.

Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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no contact letters in my opinion....bunk...but it's not my site or program so I don't waste too much energy on them...


Ark:

I appreciate you acknowledging the above.

------------------------------------------------------------

I want to express my opinion that the NO CONTACT LETTER is an ESSENTIAL PART of the MBer's Program for ending an affair and should be NON-NEGOTIABLE. The Chapter in which the NO CONTACT LETTER is presented in SAA is entitled: HOW TO END AN AFFAIR...

For my H, this was very hard to do..he resisted and resisted... and when he was able to accomplish this, I knew that he was serious in his ATTEMPT to end the affair.

Yes, the NC LETTER does not have to be followed and contact can be resumed.

IMO, though, it serves many valuable purposes.

For me, it SYMBOLIZED and EVIDENCED by H's seriousness. It was a STEP out of AFFAIRLAND. It was a STEP out of "I DON'T LOVE YOU ANYMORE, IT'S OVER" LAND. It was a STEP in my direction. It was a STEP towards home. NOT JUST WORDS ANYMORE...

The OW HATED IT..that if he could write that letter, saying he loved his wife, maybe she REALLY was not his TRUE LOVE...

I am a BIG FAN of the NC LETTER...

SECONDLY, Steve Harley himself told me from the start that PLAN A was about ME, making myself into a BETTER PERSON and a BETTER WIFE...may not be so for others..but that definitely was the case FOR ME....

I agree with everything else you had to say, ARK..but these are a couple of my points that I needed to make...

Last edited by mimi_here; 01/11/08 11:28 PM.

I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I agree that NC have no part of Plan A.


Plan A is about negotiating NO CONTACT, asking for a NO CONTACT LETTER is required in the NEGOTIATION. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by mimi_here; 01/11/08 11:00 PM.

I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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