Thanks catperson,

LOL, Im not being rude but it ironic that you would suggest the Chamber. Thats where WH works at, he doesnt want his coworkers to know we are heading to divorce. But i will take a look at the United Way.

Wow. Didn't see that one coming!

Ok, then do a web search for women's organizations in your area. They are an awesome resource for people like you. Basically, full of women who've been through life and are looking for ways to help other women. Like you.

I have some information I would like to share with you privately. I have tried to send a PM, but it says you have reached your max PM limit. Can you check your PM box?

I checked my message box, its empty. And i made sure i was accepting messages. So im not sure whats wrong.

I wasn't aware that the PM feature was activated. I hope not.

It was intentionally deactivated on the old format due to appropriateness and the potential for abuse and I would think they would carry that logic over to this format also.

I know it has been functioning since the new boards went up, although I have not personally used it myself.

And I do understand why it has been inactivated in the past and am not sure why it would be allowed now. I certainly see the danger.

But IF it is functioning, I would like to ask Hurt some questions in private and give share some thoughts with her without her WH reading and manipulating and using it against her.

Hurt,

Would you ever consider reconciliation with your husband?

Are there actions that he could take to PROVE his commitment to your marriage?

I gave my FWS a list of requirements that he must do before he could have a ticket back into my life. It was a tough list, that only a repentant, remorseful person would do. Only someone who was truly broken would follow through with that list. I was only willing to consider reconciliation if he was already broken and was willing to pull the heavy load of recovery. That's not how it usually works here at MB. But it was the ONLY option for me. I had lived through two false recoveries and refused to do it again.

Here are examples of what was on my list:

total honesty about EVERYTHING (including details of the affair that I decide I want to know)

apology to me

apology to our children for abandoning them and breaking his promises

no contact letter and complete commitment to no contact forever

disclose the details of his lies (about me, our marriage, and his affair) to our families and close friends

counseling with the counselor of my choice

weekly accountability with 3 men that I choose

change cell number and email

provide me with all cellphone, credit card, and email accounts

post-nup agreement that provided for me financially, as I had been a stay-at-home mom for 17 years and had homeschooled our children for 12 years

polygraph


There was more, but these are what come to mind right now.



IF, and I say IF, your husband would do all this and more, would you be open to the possibility of reconciliation?

Your husband has posted that he IS willing to whatever you need to help you heal.

You have EVERY RIGHT to divorce him and move on. He is a serial cheater, and may not ever change his ways.

IF he DOES change his ways, do you want this marriage? Only you can make that decision.

My advice to you is dependent on your answer. I, and others here, will support and help you whatever your goal is.

I'm in 100% absolute agreement with this. Plan A is not in your best interest right now, especially as your husband is admitting that you meet his needs. Plan A will just serve as an enabling force in the situation. You are beyond Plan A.


That is understandable. When my (now ex) H signed up here and started posting in the late Spring of 2002, I felt the exact same way.

Honestly, if he throws ANY of this in your face, then he's telling you a lot about himself. What he is saying translates to this, "Get away from me ASAP, and stay away, because I'm more interested in manipulating you than I am in fixing myself."


Sweetie, I know 110% how you feel! I know that doesn't help, but your words bring back memories of how I felt when I was in my marriage. You cannot help but feel that, but do not let it overcome you and hold you immobile.

I used to think that escapism was entirely bad. It isn't. I'll share with you what my therapist (PhD in Clinical Psychology) told me about it. Late at night, when all you do is think/cry/worry and you cannot get it out of your head, escapism is GOOD. By all means, pop in a favorite movie. Play a video/computer game. Read a good fiction book. Do some scrapbooking...whatever works for you. Escapism at that time helps you. Just do not wallow in escapism mode until you are immobilized. Use it as a tool to get you to a time/place where you can act. When those times/places come, then escapism is counterproductive.


Of course you can't! Absolutely you can't. I will never, ever suggest that you should, nor will I ever tell you that you have to or should consider remaining with or returning to your H. That is entirely up to you.


This I also understand. To me, it doesn't matter what anyone else in your family should do. The situation you are in is extremely emotionally abusive and manipulative, and you shouldn't stay in a situation like that no matter what. It isn't healthy for you.

I also understand breaking that, and moving yourself so far that you are willing to open yourself up to the person who has hurt you so deeply. I also understand how it feels when he returns that faith with more pain and hurt, and a continuation of a cycle that you rejected to begin with.

None of us, including you, can make your husband change or be anything other than what he is. Only he can make that decision. Even if/when he does, it is a long path of self-realization, self-improvement, and learning new habits. Any psychologist will tell you that it takes a minimum of 3 months to learn a single new habit. Your husband needs to spend years - literally - on his problems. (I also strongly suspect either an ingrained sense of entitlement or sexual addiction.)

What you have to do is look at your husband's actions. Don't look at his words. Ignore them entirely. He lies and is untrustworthy, and you know that. Look at his actions and what they say. Then, you need to decide if that is something you are willing to live with. My guess is that it isn't.

Protect yourself and get out of the destructive situation.


I can imagine that this was extraordinarily painful, and the worst possible time to discover such a painful truth. Focus on graduating in May. (Congrats on that, btw, that is a huge achievement.) Look into local women's advocacy groups, because there are resources to assist you. I also suggest that you file a court motion for a temporary order for child support pending a formal separation agreement. There are clinics in most law schools that can help you with this.

My situation was different in that I was the primary (and often sole) income. However, due to a series of circumstances not related to the separation and subsequent divorce, I went into serious debt (still am digging out). I lost my house (sold it right before it foreclosed), and the majority of my belongings. I am bouncing back quickly, though, and I can tell you that getting out of my situation was worth losing all of it (and then some more on top of it).


The first thing you do is breathe. I'm quite serious about this, in fact. Do some controlled breathing exercises. They help you to readjust your brain waves and reach a calmer state. The second thing you do is start all the research I've suggested. Explore your options and know what is available before making a plan.




You are most sincerely welcome.

mamabear

i brought a similar list to him before

1 total honesty- did't get that
2 no contact email- went back on it twice
3 disclosure of lies to fam- only partially
4 accountablility- pretty much refused
5 change cell#- paid $38 to switch it but contact occured anyways and he said he didnt want to spend any more money to get it changed again.

my point is that i haved done the list and it backfired... i am not willing to go through it again, he does was he needs to do temporarily so that i can stay, the reverts back to his old behavior

we talked last night and his attitude/arrogance has not changed mych. he is just fearful about losing me for good this time.

I cant even trust him to give me space to privatley post on here! I was talking to my sister and he was standing outside the door listening and brought what i was saying up to me later.

He still wants controll over my lif=e and he cant stand not having it. im not acti9ng like i never did wrong. there was a time when i wasnt fulfilling EN, but when i realized what i had done i did a 180 and he took advantage of that. I was open to recovery the first two and three times he lied. but im done


IMHO he is panicing because he is losing the control that he had.

So your husband doesn't want his coworkers knowing that you are heading to divorce? So what? It isn't your responsibility or job to protect him in such a way. It isn't your job to keep his "secrets" from his coworkers. In fact, doing so just enables him further.

I strongly suggest that you contact the Chamber anyway.


Big problem. Huge red flag. IMHO, you should have separated when you didn't get this.


Ditto to above.


Ditto to above.


1000% ditto to above. A wayward spouse refusing accountability is a wayward spouse refusing to change his/her ways.


Ditto. If NC isn't worth $38 every time contact occurs, he's not seriously invested in NC.

And this is why you should hire a divorce lawyer and send his happy asss packing.


Exactly. He actually sounds like an abuser. Has he ever hit you?

It sounds like a very wise decision.

I'm in 100% agreement with everything mkeverydaycnt says. He does sound like a controlling abuser. He may or may not physically and verbally abuse you, but this is mental and emotional abuse.

Please take a look at this, and tell us if any of it applies to your marriage, particularly the Emotional Abuse slice.

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/power_control-wheel.html

Here is information from when I attended a seminar on forgiveness by Janis Spring, PhD. (This is copied and pasted from a thread I wrote on it shortly after returning from the SmartMarriages Conference in July, 2004.)

I know that forgiveness is something with which we all struggle, whether it be forgiving ourselves, our spouse, the OP, the friends that remained silent and enabled, the family that failed to support our marriage, etc. (If I'm the only one, please just let me know. ;))

The following definitions and steps are taken from Janis Spring's book "Hoe Can I Forgive You". Note that she asserts that Genuine Forgiveness can only occur with the participation and regret of the offending party.

Obviously, not forgiving is unhealthy for us. What can we do if the person isn't sorry and we don't want to harbor the anger inside us?

********************************************

Cheap Forgiveness - Cheap Forgiveness is a quick and easy pardon with no processing of emotion and no coming to terms with the injury. It is premature, superficial, and undeserved. It is an unconditional, unilateral, often compulsive attempt at peacekeeping. It is a gratuitous gift for which the hurt party asks nothing in return.

Refusing to Forgive - Refusing to Forgive is a reactive, rigid, often compulsive response to a violation that cuts the hurt party off from life and leaves him/her stewing in his/her own hostile juices. It is a decision to continue to punish the offender and reject reconciliation, even if that decision also punishes the hurt party.


(Just in case you haven't guessed, she doesn't recommend Cheap Forgiveness)

Acceptance - Acceptance is a responsible, authentic response to an interpersonal injury when the offender can't or won't engage in the healing process - when the offender is unwilling or unable to make good. It is a program of self-care, a generous and healing gift to oneself, accomplished by the self, for the self. It asks nothing of the offender.

Genuine Forgiveness - Genuine Forgiveness is a hard-won transaction, an intimate dance between two people bound together by an interpersonal violation. As the offender works hard to earn forgiveness through genuine, generous acts of repentance and restitution, the hurt party works hard to let go of his/her resentment and his/her need for retribution - together they redress the injury.

Genuine Forgiveness is conditional, is a transaction, and requires transfer of vigilance; therefore, it requires the offender and the hurt party to both be involved.



THE TEN STEPS OF ACCEPTANCE
Hurt parties should -
- honor the full sweep of their emotions
- give up their need for revenge but continue to seek a just resolution
- stop obsessing about the injury and reengage with life
- protect themselves from further abuse
- frame the offender's behavior in terms of the offender's own personal struggles (this is not to EXCUSE the behavior but attempt to understand what may have led the offender to take this action - you can understand without agreeing or excusing)
- look honestly at their own contribution to the injury (sometimes there may not be one - my childhood sexual abuse is a good example)
- challenge their false assumptions about what happened
- look at the offender apart from the offense, weighing the good against the bad
- carefully decide what kind of relationship they want with the offender
- forgive themselves for their own failings

CONCRETE STRATEGIES FOR LIMITING OBSESSIVE THINKING
Hurt parties can:

- challenge their negative thoughts
- question their habitual response to injury
- use medication
- use distraction
- learn thought stopping
- seek social support
- normalize their response
- use relaxation, visualization, and meditation
- apply stimulus control
- implement a program of self-care

There is a detailed explanation of each of these, obviously. It is all geared toward healing oneself and moving forward in a healthy and positive way.

I hope that this is helpful for everyone in our growth and recovery paths.

You can always get back together later, down the road, after he's had to deal with the fallout of losing you because of his actions, and has maybe learned the humility he needs before he will ever change. Make him earn you back, and make sure it takes 3 to 5 years.

Great post Takola.

I think I'm at a cross between cheap forgiveness and acceptance. Only the genuine forgiveness would heal me fully I believe. I'm trusting God to help me live joyfully, even without the genuine forgiveness though.

I found great healing through acceptance, myself. It wasn't what I expected to use her information for, but it worked for me nonetheless.

{{{Mopey}}}

I'm so glad to hear that. There's hope for me then.

And that means that there's hope for you too HA23.

In my own life...well...I have found it easier to accept that it's okay not to forGET an offense.

As a Christian, I'm called to forgive that person, but I don't have to forget...

To forget puts your guard down and makes it possible for you to get hurt again the same way. I think it's a human instinct that God put there, so I rationalize that it's okay not to forget.

Not forgiving though...well, I've written about it before, my thoughts on that, and hopefully some of you will humor me as I write it again.

I believe that I have no right not to forgive someone, especially when I know I do wrong things as well. I can't expect God to forgive me for those wrong things, if I can't forgive someone else.

Jesus taught us to say "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This is the real deal. Jesus taught this. It didn't appear out of thin air just to make our lives more difficult but to make our lives better.

Another thought...it takes an awful lot of energy to maintain a grudge - energy that is life sucking and could and would quite likely rob you of positive energy to use for better things - like spending good times with family. To keep a hold on God's gavel..hmmm... What if my lack of forgiveness makes the offender feel so badly about themselves that it prevents that person from seeking God out for HIS forgiveness...Do I have that right? I just don't think so.

See...God gave each of us a conscience. He didn't give just a few of us a conscience to decide for everybody else if they are doing bad or good. He gave each of us a conscience so that he could tell whether we made our own decisions or not, so that each of us could be accountable for our OWN wrongdoing...

We have to trust that he'll straighten it out later, that those who don't SEEK forgiveness will suffer in their own way through life and in death as well. Sad, if you ask me.

How do you forgive someone if you can't forget what they did? I tell myself to hate the act, the sin, not the sinner...Hate what they did. Seek understanding, not remorse. If you get remorse, recognize it, absorb it, be glad. But don't expect to or feel bad if you can't forget about what happened. That would be foolish, if you ask me. God expects us to use our brains and our instincts to protect ourselves and those we love.

Which leads me to always wonder...is it okay with God if I keep my forgiveness to myself? lol You know...I, I just doubt that. I really do. What good is it then, you know? There's no complete closure there. It's like a story with no end.

In some faiths we're taught to SEEK forgiveness. Some people don't have a faith. They were never taught. FOO issues...no spiritual upbringing...whatever the cause...is it better to approach that person and say "You know John...I'll never forget what you did to me, but I forgive you because I need to do that for myself, and if you ever want to talk to me about it, we can do that. I just wanted you to know that I'm open to that." And then walk away? Detach. I think yes. I've never tried it exactly that way...but I do wonder if that's how it's supposed to be...

Solee,

What you are describing is pretty much Acceptance. It moves you forward to self-healing and a better place for yourself. It moves you past the grudge, and allows you to release that energy from yourself. It is about you, your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your Higher Power (if any), and your relationship with the universe (including people) around you. You can forgive in this way, but you certainly shouldn't forget the lesson you learned. It also, by no means, implies that you should continue to put yourself in harm's way. You should also be accountable for not doing yourself harm just as much as you are accountable for not doing others harm.

I think we are mostly in agreement, even if I can no longer (by any wild stretch of the imagination) be considered Christian.

What I work on is compassion and understanding. I can have compassion for a person, and understanding of why that person did what he/she did, without agreeing with what that person did. In fact, I can vehemently disagree. I also work past any feelings of hate toward the person or their actions. Hate is like an internal, emotional cancer. That doesn't mean that I don't still disagree with the actions.

I keep my Acceptance to myself, and always have. As I said in my last email regarding our marriage to my ex, "Nothing needs to be said to end a marriage." This is true. I don't feel any need to seek him out to let him know where I'm at emotionally. It is in the past for me, and I don't want any contact with him. I do have complete closure for myself. However, I do think that this is an individual call. If you feel that your relationship with yourself and your Higher Power (again, if any) require you to share your Acceptance/Forgiveness to gain closure, by all means do that.

Of course! There is always hope for people. Sometimes it is very hard for us to see/feel it, though.