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Hurting_at_23 #2039223 04/07/08 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hurting_at_23
mamabear

i brought a similar list to him before

1 total honesty- did't get that
2 no contact email- went back on it twice
3 disclosure of lies to fam- only partially
4 accountablility- pretty much refused
5 change cell#- paid $38 to switch it but contact occured anyways and he said he didnt want to spend any more money to get it changed again.

my point is that i haved done the list and it backfired... i am not willing to go through it again, he does was he needs to do temporarily so that i can stay, the reverts back to his old behavior

we talked last night and his attitude/arrogance has not changed mych. he is just fearful about losing me for good this time.

I cant even trust him to give me space to privatley post on here! I was talking to my sister and he was standing outside the door listening and brought what i was saying up to me later.

He still wants controll over my lif=e and he cant stand not having it. im not acti9ng like i never did wrong. there was a time when i wasnt fulfilling EN, but when i realized what i had done i did a 180 and he took advantage of that. I was open to recovery the first two and three times he lied. but im done


IMHO he is panicing because he is losing the control that he had.


Hurt,

The ONLY reason I asked you this question was to see if you were sure you were done. If I were in your shoes, I would definitely be done. But I am not you, nor is anyone else here.

There are some BS's who would give yet another chance to a WS just like yours, IF he were willing to do whatever they needed to heal from the betrayals. I needed to know where you stood on this.

Since I cannot tell you what I wanted to in private, I will just tell you now. Going out and getting a killer job right now WILL affect child support. Please be aware of that. Your WS could end up paying little, if any. Or, you could end up paying him. Ridiculous, huh!

Contact a lawyer and ask for their guidance on the employment situation. People here have great advice on HOW to find employment, but you also need to consider WHEN. It is time to switch into strategic mode, so that you can protect and provide for your daughter as much as possible.



Happily married to HerPapaBear



sexymamabear #2039248 04/07/08 05:16 PM
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H@23,

I have never given this advice to anyone before, but my advice to you is RUN!!!!!!! If you were my daughter I would be trying to DRAG you and DD out of the situation.(Not very MB I know, but that's a mother's love).

Read Controlling People and The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?, both by Patricia Evans. They may not save your marriage, but they will give you DEEP understanding as to what has happened in your M and why it is NOT your fault.

sexymamabear's advice about a lawyer is on the money.

Blessings to you,

WH2LE


WH2LE

BS(Me)-57
FWH-54
Married-5/26/2001(2nd for me, 1st for him)
DS-30
DD-27
D-Day-05/31/2007
Wknghrd2LoveEasy #2039253 04/07/08 05:22 PM
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H23...has he EVER hit you?

sexymamabear #2039345 04/07/08 09:02 PM
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Mamabear,

I am not intrested in working it out. I told him that it would be a miracle from heaven if we were togeather a year from now. His family has started to call me now... ofcourse trying to convince me to stay. but I cant let anyone make the decision for me.

About the job situation; what if he cant afford to pay our mortgage/rent and his rent, plus daycare, etc with just his salary? How does that work out? What he makes each month just barely pays our bills now. Can we agree in counseling on child support or is it strictly determined by the court?

He said he may not be posting anymore because the "negativity" on his thread. THen he told me that i can "entertain it if i want". I have a hard time explaining to him that little things like that are ways of manipulating/controlling me to do what he wants. He trys to make me feel guilty for posting.


Hurting_at_23 #2039350 04/07/08 09:13 PM
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mk,

he hasnt HIT me but has gotten pretty aggressive before

Hurting_at_23 #2039351 04/07/08 09:17 PM
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If his aggression was physical (restraining or pushing) I would be very careful around him. Abusers do not like losing control and will at times, act in very violent ways to hold on to their "possessions."

Take every and any threat very seriously.

Hurting_at_23 #2039353 04/07/08 09:20 PM
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He said he may not be posting anymore because the "negativity" on his thread.

He is a very weak man. You can and will do better. Heal yourself and then when the time is right, you will find a man deserving of the title "husband."

medc #2039428 04/08/08 07:43 AM
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if he has been aggressive it will more likely then not turn physical at some point. each time my ex lost a little more control of me and the situation he became more "aggressive" until one night he kicked in the front door, shoved me against the wall in front of our kids, using every profanity possible. i had him arrested on the spot. even with arrest and restraining order he got very close to being rearrested with the texts he was taunting me with.

as far money. don't worry about him! by law he has to pay you child support and if you have been a sahm or only worked part time, you can get alimony too usually. get a lawyer and they will figure it out. if you go back to work, which you probably will have to get a job to make ends meet, just be sure you make less then he does, at least for now. i am still in college but did get a job in my field while i am finishing. but i still make about half of what he does. so, my ex has to pay cs, plus 100% of all child care. if both of your names are on the mortgage see if you can get it in just your name, if not, than just put it in the agreement that you would like one year to refinance and that if you can't you will sell it at that time. You can't force your ex to pay his portion of the mortgage. mine has not paid a dime on our in 3 years and now wants to say he is going to force me to sell. bite me! we'll see what a judge says and i am hoping to get some money for the fact he hasn't given me any. he would have let it go into foreclosure rather than pay on a house he was not living in.

you can do this and should do this. i for one do not blame you at all for your feelings. and i think the only reason your ex even posted here was for another attempt to try and control you. it is almost like he stalked you and found you posting here so he had to post too so we would feel sorry for him or something, who knows. did he honestly think we would say "oh, look how hard he is working, he came here and posted for us to help his wife.." hell no! if he had posted begging for help on how HE could change, that would be one thing, but he posts all about you and the help you need. the only help you need is advice on how to get the hell away from him and fast.

keep posting, and get as far away from him as you can.

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

mlhbisme #2039438 04/08/08 07:54 AM
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He said he may not be posting anymore because the "negativity" on his thread. THen he told me that i can "entertain it if i want". I have a hard time explaining to him that little things like that are ways of manipulating/controlling me to do what he wants. He trys to make me feel guilty for posting.

he hasnt HIT me but has gotten pretty aggressive before
These are all CLEAR abuse tactics. Have I recommended that you read the book "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men"? It will give you a great insight into who he is, and why he is, and how you'll never get a day's rest with him.

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it is almost like he stalked you and found you posting here so he had to post too so we would feel sorry for him or something
Another abuser tactic. They are always the victim. It's part of their verbal manipulative ability, to twist anything around so that they need to be cared for, pitied, look better, etc.

Make sure you find a lawyer, today! Call United Way (www.unitedway.org) and ask them to help you get connected to the right people.

catperson #2039464 04/08/08 08:48 AM
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I will recommend two books to you.

Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
No Visible Wounds by Mary Susan Miller, PHd.

Please take care of yourself.

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Originally Posted by *Takola*
CONCRETE STRATEGIES FOR LIMITING OBSESSIVE THINKING
Hurt parties can:

- challenge their negative thoughts
- question their habitual response to injury
- use medication
- use distraction
- learn thought stopping
- seek social support
- normalize their response
- use relaxation, visualization, and meditation
- apply stimulus control
- implement a program of self-care

There is a detailed explanation of each of these, obviously. It is all geared toward healing oneself and moving forward in a healthy and positive way.

Takola, would it be possible for you to post or send me the detailed explanation of these? I know it is my obsessiveness that's holding me back from full recovery.

And not to completely threadjack this, Hurting, I know you are scared about the finances. Most lawyers will give you a free 30 minute consultation and that's enough time to learn about the local divorce and custody laws. It's a lot less frightening when you have the information. Yes, your finances will turn into a mess for a while but you can straighten it out later. Honey, you need to get out of that situation.

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Hi Tabby! I really wish I had the notes to expand upon those points better, but I lost all my notes on all studies I had done into personal relationship and marital strategies when I lost my house and most of my belongings. I dug that post up from another board (because it was so long ago on this board that I couldn't find it).

When you challenge your negative thoughts, it goes something like this:

"Man, all people are out to get me." or "Men are just like that." or "I probably asked for it." or "My life is now destroyed."

You then do a catch, "Hey, I'm thinking pretty negatively." (I used to sit and list all the negative thoughts, assumptions, and attitudes that I had.) You deliberately choose to challenge the validity of the negative thought. You challenge your own thoughts. (I'll use the life is now destroyed one in my example of challenging. I really did go through this exact thought process.)

"Is that the way it really is? Is my LIFE really DESTROYED? How do I define my life? Do I really define my entire life based upon my marriage/home/gadgets/job/career? No. I don't. My life is so much more than any of those things. I have my family, friends, education, intellect, and so much more. Well, then, what am I saying? I guess I'm saying that none of these things that have gone wrong are my life, even all put together, and they don't have the power to destroy it if I don't let them. The time that these things were in my life is over, but they were not and are not my life."

You can do this with any negative thought. Are all men really like that? Is everyone really out to get you? Did you really ask for the treatment you received? Are you really unable to move on? Does the situation really have that much power over you? What if you look at it a different way? What if it was an experience, it hurt, you learned, and your life is now better because of it? You will make better decisions and move on as a stronger person because of it?

You will find that you, all on your own, can dispel most of these negative thoughts fairly easily. We are quite able to shift our own paradigm, if only we are willing to give it a bit of effort. It is also EASIER for us to do this for ourselves then for someone else to do it for us. Someone else challenging us can quite easily (and often) trigger a defensive reaction.

When you challenge your habitual response to injury, it goes something like this:

How do I react when this type of injury happens to me? Is there a pattern? Why, yes, there is. I always get angry, express my frustration, beat myself up internally, internalize the blame, hold a grudge, grumble about it for years... (Whatever it is for you.) Do I REACT or do I RESPOND? Hey, why do I do that? Is that really helpful for me? Is this healthy for me? What can I do to change the pattern? What is a healthier way to respond?

You can also do this with your assumptions, "Hey, if I process this and let go of my anger, does that really mean that I can't protect myself in the future? How can I protect myself in the future without holding onto this internal pain?"

Medication is used in extremely stressful situations to temporarily help us handle the stressful situation. Anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications are good examples. As your stress levels increase, your body requires more of its own mood stabilizing biochemicals - especially seratonin and dopamine. Anti-depressants like SSRIs inhibit your body's re-absorbtion of its seratonin, thus increasing the amounts you have.

I discussed distraction (I called it escapism) in another post on this thread to H@23.

Thought stopping is perhaps the most difficult, but the most useful, as well. Thought stopping is when you detect that you are going into a negative state of mind and train of thought. You then do a catch, and deliberately and consciously redirect your thoughts elsewhere. You can use a distraction to assist you with this. Example:

"Man, that SOB really used me. Did he really think I was going to put up with that forever? I mean, honestly, if he did, he must never have had any respect for me at all. It was probably his intention to use me all along..."

CATCH! "I'm thinking negatively and going down the slippery slope thought process. This never leads me any place worth going. I just end up getting stressed and resentful. I need to think about something else. That story on the news last night about the polar bear in Germany was interesting..."

If you cannot think about something else at that time (your mind keeps going back), pick up the phone and call someone to have a postive, neutral chat with.

Seek social support. Well, that's what people do out here on MB. That's what people do when they talk to their family and friends. That is what people do when they contact a support group. This is very helpful. I personally recommend a good, qualified individual therapist if you can swing it financially at all.

Use visualization, relaxation, and meditation. The breathing exercises I suggested in an earlier post on this thread are an example. There are various methods of doing this. Deep, controlled breathing exercises is one. Yoga and meditation are good, and you can combine these with visualization. Many yoga CDs and DVDs included guided visualization meditation, and you can play many guided meditations (including visualization) on YouTube for free.

Applying stimulus control. This means that you control stimuli that cause you to begin feeling negative or bad in any way. Any stimulus that causes you to focus on your source of pain is best avoided, especially initially. When you apply this to relationships, Helen Fisher hits on it very well in her book, "Why we love," and Harley hits on it with his explanation for "No Contact". In a marriage that is over, for instance, get the wedding photos down off the walls and hang up a cheerful print. Heck, print one out on your own printer. Remove that stimulus. If you see a certain object that always reminds you of the injury or person/situation that caused the injury, get rid of it. If you don't want to throw it away, shove it under the couch, bed, or in the attic. Did the injury occur at the coffee shop on Main Street? Don't go there.

These are Tak's words to describe the strategies. I wish I had my notes from my talk with Janis...but I don't. I highly suggest that you read her book "How Can I Forgive You" for many of these strategies for Acceptance.

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Thanks Takola! This stuff is great!

Hurting_at_23 #2039599 04/08/08 12:31 PM
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To people here on MB, can we get this woman off of the public MB boards, and perhaps create a Yahoo Group for her with limited membership access? Let me know what you think. She doesn't seem safe here at all. If anyone creates this, or has already done so, I am reachable at takola_mb@hotmail.com Please let me know.

To H@23:

My my my.

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IMHO he is panicking because he is losing the control that he had.

I agree with you here. His focus is on keeping/losing you, not on protecting you or improving the marriage. His focus doesn't even seem to be on the hurt he has caused to you and the marriage (and, therefore, his daughter), except insofar as it helps him to keep you from leaving him. Even so, there are limited things he is willing to do for that.

While this is typical of a WS in a "fog", I do not think the cause for your husband is the "fog". There are too many indications of this being a perpetual, long-term state of mind.

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His family has started to call me now... of course trying to convince me to stay. but I cant let anyone make the decision for me.

When and why did his family begin contacting you? I suggest that you let them know that this will be your decision, and they need to respect that. Try, "I appreciate your concern, but I really am not going to discuss this with you. I will make the decision that is best for me and my daughter, and I hope you respect that. Would you like to talk about something else?"

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About the job situation; what if he cant afford to pay our mortgage/rent and his rent, plus daycare, etc with just his salary? How does that work out? What he makes each month just barely pays our bills now. Can we agree in counseling on child support or is it strictly determined by the court?

You can come to your own separation agreement separate from the court, and it will generally be honored. However, his financial responsibility - especially for your daughter - is his financial responsibility. It is a calculation based upon his income and a state formula, not based upon his existing expenses. If he finds that he has to make adjustments to his lifestyle to meet the obligations, then that is what he needs to do. I strongly suggest that you not low ball the child support. That is his responsibility as a parent to his child, not a responsibility he has to you personally. It is a responsibility that you both incurred when you became parents. The state formulas account for your responsibility, as well. Given that you are so close to graduation, and that your schooling and that situation were accepted in the marital situation, you should be able to complete your schooling. Both of you will need to make adjustments to your standard of living to your new circumstances. How he does that is his responsibility, not yours. You have enough responsibility with handling your own situation.

I do not think it is wise for you to continue to enable him. It is not your job to protect him from the legitimate consequences of his own actions. Doing so, in fact, just helps him continue his behavior.

You really need to contact an attorney. As I said before, law schools have legal clinics that can assist you. Start calling around. Someone else suggested a free consultation with an attorney, and I strongly suggest this as well. The attorney can give you an overview of the law, answer your questions, and help you to set your expectations.

The House of Ruth should be able to help you in locating assistance and support for your situation. If there is not a House of Ruth near you, they should be able to point you in the right direction. http://www.hruth.org/

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He said he may not be posting anymore because the "negativity" on his thread. Then he told me that i can "entertain it if i want". I have a hard time explaining to him that little things like that are ways of manipulating/controlling me to do what he wants. He trys to make me feel guilty for posting.

I'm not surprised at his response to his thread, honestly. I was fully expecting it. His thread was a token post in an attempt to keep you with him, not a sincere attempt to address his problems. He will find ways to justify it as it being anyone's responsibility but his own. Even with those who aren't generally controlling and manipulative, the knee-jerk response you get to D-day and exposure rarely leads to lasting change or any deeper realizations.

He will not see the problem with his actions. He fully justifies this behavior to himself. Right now, whether or not he sees it isn't the important thing. Focus on yourself, what you know, and trust in that. He will not have a moment of miraculous epiphany and understand what is going on and what he is doing. Such things don't work that way in real life. It is a long, hard road that he has before he reaches an understanding of self-responsibility.

I think you need a safe place to post, sweetie. That's why I put my suggestion at the top of this response. Please strongly consider it. My email is at the top.

*Takola* #2039608 04/08/08 12:48 PM
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Brilliant idea, Tak! smile

sexymamabear #2039611 04/08/08 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sexymamabear
Contact a lawyer and ask for their guidance on the employment situation. People here have great advice on HOW to find employment, but you also need to consider WHEN. It is time to switch into strategic mode, so that you can protect and provide for your daughter as much as possible.

This is great advice, btw. Absolutely great advice.

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Since I cannot tell you what I wanted to in private, I will just tell you now.

We really need to get her off of this public board.

*Takola* #2039620 04/08/08 01:10 PM
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I can start a board, Tak, but I won't be consistent in replying. However, if this poster is with the folks she trusts most, I wouldn't really even worry about it, and would certainly desire to check on it, once in a while.

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H@23,

Takola is a long-time MB vet. Perhaps you do not know her, but you can search her posts. It may be worth it for you to do so.

I am also a vet, Zuzus_Petals, or some variation. It's been a while since I used that name. Anyway, we're not exactly the cavalry, but we'll do what we can, or maybe someone else can. smile

YIM/ZP

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I tend to agree with the others, as of today, he's still not protecting you, he's done great harm to you and the marriage and he doesn't yet get it.

The great thing is that the only thing you really have to do is to watch what happens. You don't need to make any life changing decisions today.

It certainly makes sense to ensure that you and your children are taken care of, so whatever it takes to do that, do it.

As far as his family, tell them what you are doing. Tell them that what he has done has greatly hurt you, and you are not sure that you can recover. However, their interference is likely to make you think he's trying to control, manipulate the situation.

I'd put to rest any fears they may have regarding losing access to their grandchildren. I don't believe they should be punished or excluded from the kids lives if ultimately you decide you can no longer have him as a husband.

It's likely they are also hurt and ashamed of his behavior. It's also possible they have no clue how damaging his behavior has been to you and the marriage.

So what I'm saying is, they likely have NO CLUE how you are feeling and have likely heard only one side of the story.

So when you evaluate their behavior, I simply ask you to consider their perspective.

I believe you husband has much work to do to address himself.

So my advice is to sit back, in your safe place, and see if he's moving in the right direction or not.

There are many here who will help you determine what that is.

Ultimately, if you want him to remain a close part of your life, you will have to help define what that safe place is, as each of us have different ideas of what that safety includes. But right now, you are looking for evidence that he's really willing to do the work needed to address the already known unsafe behaviors such as contact with any OW's, efforts and control or manipulation.

I find it's a difficult problem, because on one hand, he does want control. He may or may not want to control you, but he does want control over the situation. On the other hand, I'm sure you want some control over the situation as well.

It's likely neither of you know exactly what to do.

You may feel like it's obvious what he should do or should not do. Sleeping with an OW is obvious.

What he should do now is not so obvious to him. There may be some obvious general things he can do. However, if you are really interested in sending a clear message, then tell him specifically what you need.

I suggested to him a controlled separation, where both of you develop a separation agreement with a counselor or pastor, something you both agree upon. With some defined objectives, some boundaries and a specified time limit.

It's not an ending point, but a starting point that hopefully would lead to an environment where BOTH of you feel safe.

Right now, neither of you feel safe. Not him, not you. He hurt you in an incredible way, and you may want to watch him twist in the wind, you may not care he doesn't feel safe given what he's done.

I understand that, having been betrayed myself.

However, I also know that you don't heal by inflicting pain on another person. Even unintentional pain is still pain.

You may totally reject what I'm saying. He may never get it, ever. However, if there is any hope of saving your marriage, it will have to be a safe place for both of you.

I agree that he has been the one to compromise the safety of the marriage, and you would be justified to tell him to just take a hike, I don't trust you any more, etc. I would not fault you for doing this.

However, if this is the rock bottom he needed to get it, and you walked away now, it would be you doing a lot of the work and later on someone else benefits from your pain.

And what is there to lose if he doesn't ever get it? You don't have to decide that today. You can watch and see if he's a worker, or a blamer.

After he gets over his fear, he may just buckle down and do the work needed.

I pray he will, because even if you do divorce him, both of you will benefit from his changes.

So I encourage you to pray that he can accomplish the things he's saying right now. Even if you are lead to divorce him, what harm does it do to pray that he's the husband you've always wanted.

I'm not saying to expect it, but rather ask God to show him the way, and to show you if he's really doing it, or just trying to manipulate.

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I'm sorry you're here.

I had no idea that his wife was posting here! I posted to him
early on and asked that some vets step in.

I agree with much of what's posted. He could actually even have a personality disorder- but that's not an excuse for his bad behavior.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry you're here and that I hope you can stay safe.

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