It's not about supporting divorce it's about protecting your wife from your hurtful behavior.

Read what I wrote again. I was a wreck for three months and when I was starting to get comfortable with things, thinking I could win my WW back, the other shoe drops and I find out she's having an affair.

Clock set back to zero. I didn't lose another 30 pounds and it was likely only the pain pills I was taking (I found out about the affair while recovering from surgery, BTW) that enabled me to sleep.

So why not ask your pastor or a marriage counselor to mediate a controlled separation. Your goal is to protect your wife from the hurt until she feels safe enough to allow you back into her life. While this is going on, you work on those behaviors that caused the hurt, work on what you were not doing for her. Maybe just ID'ing that, as she may not let you meet her needs anymore, or only meet some, such as providing money so she still has a home for herself and the children.

You have just hit your wife with an emotional shotgun and she is lying there, extremely wounded. She knows you are the one who shot her.

Do you think she wants you to help her heal right at this moment? I feel pretty safe in answering no on her behalf. Even if she wants you to help, I don't think it's a good idea because you probably still have that loaded shotgun, even if you don't think you do.

So it's entirely possible that it will go off again.

The best thing you can do right now it to offer safety for her. The guaranteed way to do that is to not be there right now. That doesn't mean it has to be the first step to divorce. However, it needs to be something that both of you agree upon.

Right now, I think you need to just agree with her for a specified time period. Why not a 90 day separation administered by your Pastor, where both of you have accountability partners and period meetings to address anything she wants to talk about?

I agree that separation just for the sake of separation is bad. But if there are some objectives and boundaries on that separation, it could be the very thing that saves your marriage.

IF you were serious YOU would be less concerned with taking care of yourself. You do not yet COMPREHEND the level of betrayal you have committed. I wish you did, because your wife NEEDS you to "go there".

I guess I'm in the fog, b/c I dont see how, me not caring about myself or how I'll end up if she still chooses to divorce me is a wise decision. I've been trying to have faith in God, and allow him to work things as he would like. I do comprehend the level of hurt and pain I've put my wife through. How does me being in debt up to my eye balls, and broke after all of this, with no house, car, or anything else for that matter, prove anything except, that I was a fool. Granted I've already proving I'm one for cheating multiply times. I dont understand yet.

you being left with nothing doesn't prove anything at all.
it is called "the consequences of your choices"

and don't think she will be living the lap of luxury either.
i have struggled my butt off trying to make ends meet after deciding to end my marriage to a serial cheater. but broke was better than living with him and his lies.

financially you will both hurt for a while, but you will make it through, we all have.

mlhb

OK, I have to admit that it's easier when one gets farther from the crisis, but if you are really trying to have faith in God, then have faith in God regardless the outcome.

My faith was shaken when I ended up divorced? Why? Because I thought I had faith in God. I had faith in an outcome, not God.

God is bigger than any outcome.

Maybe you WERE a fool when you had your affairs. You can't change that. But then you can tell the world how much you messed up, that you had to pay the price, but God has seen you through it, regardless the outcome.

Look at what Paul wrote, he was the chief of sinners. He persecuted the Christians, had them put to death, and was changed by God on the Road to Damascus.

His life didn't suddenly become the world's definition of success, he was shipwrecked and imprisoned and even lived through an earthquake that destroyed the jail where he was imprisoned.

You may be in debt, divorce, living in van down by the river. But without Christ, you are the fool.

What matters more, does God think you are a fool, or your peers here on Earth?

It sounds to me that you are still more concerned about how your peers here will see you, than how God will see you.

good post enlightened.
humble yourself before God. nothing else matters. pray that HIS will be done no matter what, whatever that means and whatever that takes. AND, his will may not be what you want. BUT you submit to it anyway.

I think you are going to learn a lot from this situation. At least I sure hope you do.

mlhb

This situation doesn't 'benefit' you, that's clear. But then, you've already extracted far more than your fair share of benefit from the marriage, don't you think?

Your living in penury doesn't help your wife, but your absence from her life does.

Her choice is between insecure marriage/untrustworthy husband/relative financial security, and difficult finances/absence of emotional misery/prospect of finding a more reliable man. You've devalued yourself far below the point where your presence in her life is of any positive benefit.

TA

It is not at all logical to make your actions dependent upon what she does or does not do, nor whether or not you know you have another chance.

She's not going to give you another chance at this time. She may not ever. The only way you can possibly get another chance is to earn it, and that by doing hard, demonstrable work on yourself. You cannot talk your way out of a situation that you behaved yourself into. You have to behave your way out by changing your behavior.

Right now, you are trying to talk your way out, which is also an illogical approach for someone who has no credibility.

She is not responsible for providing you with motivation. You are an adult who is responsible for motivating himself.


I don't buy the "fog" explanation for your behavior and actions. Fog is a temporary mental state that a wayward spouse visits. There are too many indications that this is your long-term state of mind.

The key to your problem (and I'm not talking marriage here) is that you seem to think this is all about what happens to you. It is all about what you get or do not get. Your focus is entirely on benefits for you.

I don't suggest that you stop focusing on yourself, but I suggest that it stop being ABOUT what happens to you or doesn't. I suggest that you shift your focus to what you do and do not do, and taking sole and complete responsibility for what you do and do not do.

Right now, what you are doing is posting on a free message board, and really focusing on what you can get from her and get her to do...and that is the message you are sending.

What aren't you doing? 100% transparent honesty. 100% transparent accountability. Actual investment in therapy with a qualified therapist. Ensuring your wife's safety. The list is quite lengthy. When you do these things, then people will begin to entertain the idea that you aren't manipulating further.

And...for the love of deity and the sake of all that is holy stop using your wife's posts to argue with her about them. The absolute first thing you need to do is to make her safe. She isn't safe so long as you are trying to control what she does, manipulate what she does, or berate what she does. This is abusive.

Read up on the Love Busters (it is free) out here and eliminate EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM ALL THE TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

Until you do, your wife is not even safe to talk to you.


I have news for you...you are going to be in debt up to your eye balls and broke after all of this no matter what. (My divorce legal bills - just mine - alone were $20k.)

If you actually own a house, chances are that it is marital property, and you won't have it, either. Guess what? In states where they can award the house, it will be awarded to the custodial parent. In states where they cannot award the house (like Maryland), if neither of you can afford to buy the other one out, the house will be ordered sold, and the proceeds will be distributed according to court order. Even if the house itself isn't marital property (as mine wasn't...it was solely in my name and purchased prior to the marriage) half of the equity built in the house during the marriage is hers - even if you were the only one to ever pay a mortgage payment (as I was). I know. I just went through this. Your income during marriage is considered marital property, thus, all the payments are, too.

If you rent, you will probably have to go down to more affordable accommodations. If you keep your car, consider that lucky. That's the reality of divorce. Divorce is the logical and natural consequence of the behavior that you chose to engage in.

As I said, your reality check has bounced. You are not operating anywhere near reality. Legal separation alone can force these things to happen as part of the financial settlement and distribution of property. This is the reality that you are facing. Don't shoot the messenger...


Oh yes, you've already proven yourself to be a fool. Most people do that several times in their life, so don't take that so hard. However, the question is whether or not you are going to correct it.

Let me present this from another perspective, the BS's perspective.

My wife cheated and still got 1/2. Actually, she got more than 1/2 because she didn't get 1/2 of the debt. The best deal I thought I could get was the debt split based on income percentage, not 50/50.

My unfaithful ex-wife dropped her request that I pay her legal fees, alimony, and undervalued our marital home by enough that it did ultimately end up being about a 50/50 split.

So tell me, why should the unfaithful party get ANYTHING in the case of a divorce. You break the marriage, I (as well as others) believe the unfaithful party should walk away with either nothing, or nothing more than what he/she had when entering the marriage.

Oh, my unfaithful ex also got 1/2 of the increase in my 401(k) and IRA accounts.

Fortunately, I kept good records and knew what I had prior to getting married. Between that and the dot.com crash earlier this decade, I lost more to the crash than I did to my ex-wife.

But the whole time, I wondered why a cheating spouse is entitled to anything marital. After all, they busted up the marriage, why should they get anything.

If you get half, you are still getting infinitely more than I think any wayward spouse is entitled to.

exactly.

A WS should forfeit being a custodial parent...the family home...any and everything. They should leave with their clothes and not much else.

How many BS on here are seeing their dollars spent on a WS and the OM/W...too many.

How many fathers are being forced to pay for children they now get to see on a very limited basis because the WS broke up the home. Too many.

How many BW are left to fend for their children while the WH walks around spending money on his ho?

Get the point!

This is true. Distribution of marital property is not based upon actions in the marriage in most states. They are decided separately.

However, what I have said is also true. What I've said is based upon law, legal precedent, and what was explained to me by multiple lawyers and a 2 judges. The information I gave was not at all based upon any behavior during the marriage, which is why it doesn't reference any.

Be aware, though, that in some states, marital actions do affect property distribution. In those states, he is in even bigger trouble than the information I gave.

The idea that he will weather this storm while maintaining his current lifestyle when his income is just enough for his current expenses as it is, well, that's a naive belief that is not grounded in reality.


Yup, and he (and all) should take note of this. Capital gains accrued during the marriage (even on retirement accounts) are marital property. In fact, this applies not only to capital gains. If you got it during the marriage (even if it is appreciation or interest), it is marital property.

EE's other point should not go unnoticed, either:


EXACTLY. I'm not, in general, an advocate of divorce. I am even less an advocate of a person remaining in a situation like your wife's. It is harmful and hurtful. In fact, I will go so far now (several days and posts in on both threads) as to call it abusive.

*head scratch*

What's that got to do with H@23?

Newbie or oldbie doesn't matter...content matters. Your post was 100% awesome.

TMT's wife has posted over on Divorcing/Divorced. The thread title is "I'm leaving him". TMT links to her thread in his initial post.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2036648#Post2036648

I don't think anything I've said is about H@23, do you have a specific point that is troubling to you? Perhaps I'm unclear or have worded something poorly, but I can't fix what I don't understand.

What I'm saying is that if one is really remorseful, they would be willing to give up any marital property, sending a clear message that they have betrayed not only their spouse, but the family. That they are willing to abide by the decisions of the betrayed. That they let go of any assets built up during the marriage, continue to shoulder any debts created in the marriage, and work on themselves, figuring out how to survive on their own as well as continue to support the family they created and betrayed.

It is action such as this, consistently done that sends the message that the unfaithful spouse owns his/her own behavior, recognizing that the decision is ultimately up to the betrayed spouse as to where things go from here.

I think anything short of this is just entitlement, I.E. "me" mentality.

TMT,

Let me add one more thing to drive this home.

Affairs are abuse, plain and simple. You need to own this one. You speak about your pastor or priest, so unless your vows meant nothing, you have violated a foundation of your faith, desecrated a sacrement if your Catholic.

According to biblical teach, marriage is God's metaphor for His relationship with us, and you have abused your wife by breaking your vows, pure and simple.

I think you need to let this sink in, your behavior up to this point has been abusive.

If you are not willing or able to accept this, then there is no hope that you will ever progress to a better place with respect to your wife.

You may still never get there because she has closed that door. Frankly, if she has, I would not blame her.

But if you want any hope, you need to accept that you have done this. You may not understand it, but understand it's one of the most hurtful things you can do to another human being.

Start there.

Your post seemed to be a rebuttal to Takola's when Tak was addressing a WS. Isn't H@23 TMT's wife?

The only thing I've rebutted of Tak's is her mistaken impression of what I was saying in H@23's thread.

I certainly didn't offer a rebuttal of her here. In fact, I asked TMT why he would expect anything, that he doesn't really deserve ANY marital assets, that affairs are abusive, etc.

I'm not seeing how that could possibly be a rebuttal of Tak in any stretch of the imagination.

So if we want to start a he said, she said thing, why is she rebutting me, not the other way around.

But I don't think we want to do that, do we?

I could be wrong.

So TMT,

What is it EXACTLY that you don't understand about what you should be doing at this point?

This is a serious question.

Maybe if you can clear that up for yourself and for US you might be able to get this.

WH2LE

I asked a question to clarify. It didn't make sense for you to ask Tak to tell you why a WS should get anything from a settlement, when she had just said that TMT may not be left with much.

Here's why I thought what I did:


I didn't see that you addressed TMT in this post, and only quoted and replied to Takola's post.

TMT,

Ok. So you've talked to the pastor -follow up on that.

Get the counselor who is on your health plan.

If it requires you contacting a friend, doing an internet search, or doing something else to get an email address for the other women in your life, do it. In your case, I think it is important that you send the no contact letters. Especially to the OW that you went back to for the EA and PA. You need to establish no-contact because you need to make this statement to them - for yourself and for your wife, both. I think if you do not close these doors behind you, the very likely possibility is that you will keep them open and keep looking out for that little crack of light coming in. You are the addictive kind, and a repeat offender. Close these doors, lock them, and throw away the key.

BRB...