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#2065035 05/28/08 09:40 PM
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I was feeling lonely, so I thought "hey, I can be vulnerable to people that don't really know me"

Lets see... things are not better. At all really. Frozen and I have turned ourselves into marriage martyrs I guess. Sticking in there no matter how bad it is.

I have learned quite a lot about myself however.

Why did I have an affair? Because I wanted the cheap sex and because I felt like it. I was not attached to Frozen, because I didn't allow myself to get close to anyone. There is nothing wrong with her... but there was with me. Emotionally unavailable, equating sex to love and approval, I was a dangerous person to have a relationship with. It isn't pretty, but it's honest. Probably why it's ugly. Thought getting sex off some woman at work with low morals would be cool. My morals matched, so we hooked up. It is really stupid and I regret it. More than anything I have ever regreted.

Any time I watch a movie, see a couple, hear a love song, read a story about infidelity, or just about anything I am reminded about this huge betrayal and how much damage it has caused. I had no attachment at all to OW, which seems to make it worse. Like at least I could have thrown it all away caring for something but I threw it all away for nothing.

I am not going to live in this mistake. I made a mistake, a terrible series of choices and that is that. I won't ever forget, but I am not going to live under the thumb of this mistake. I have forgiven myself for this and if that is not ok, oh well.

I learned that I played parent/child with Frozen for approval. Her being the parent. It looks really stupid actually. I behaved that way for approval. I don't need the approval. Not given in the way I was trying to get it. If she genuinely wishes to give it, then great. I will not be waiting around for it. Pursuing it. None of that because it has been what I have done that has been part of failure.

I learned that you give your wife access to emails.

I learned that you don't give the 'look' of inpropriety, becasue that is just as good as guilty.

I learned that when you behave like a child, you get treated like one. And no woman can or will respect a child.

I learned that reading these forums was part of the problem.

I learned that Kimberly is an excellent counselor.

I learned that I am responsible for the choices I make, even the ones I don't like the outcome for.

I learned I could communicate a point and do it without yelling or intimidation.

I learned that what you think something looks like.. probably is what it is, playing simple odds.

I learned several things.

Some things I didn't want to know. I could have done with out them. Ignorance was bliss.

I hope the folks I used to mingle with around here are doing well. All of them.


patriot92 #2065036 05/28/08 09:52 PM
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My shrink buddy says:

You are who you are. You may hate some of the things in life that molded you, but there is no reset button. Accept that you cannot change the past, only the future. Be the best person you can be so long as you are not a jerk. Would you want to be hooked up with you? If the answer is yes, then laugh, love and get on down the road of life.

Hi Patriot. Your list looks centered to me.

Larry

patriot92 #2065065 05/29/08 01:18 AM
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I learned that reading these forums was part of the problem.

Interesting thought, Patriot.

What "problem" are you referring to and how did you perceive reading these forums was a part of that problem?

I have my suspicions, but I'd like to hear your explanation and expansion of that statement.


God bless.

patriot92 #2065096 05/29/08 05:58 AM
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I do not really know you patriot although i have read some of you and Frozen's sitch but i would like to say that it seems like you have learned a lot.

If you have learned so much why are you still stuck?

Being a BS i can tell you that it is really hard for us (just as reading your post it is hard for you as well). I QUESTION EVERYTHING in our relationship now. Things i never questioned before. I think the WORST of every situation instead of the BEST (which is what i did pre-A). Infidelity is just an ugly ugly ugly thing.

I don't know but maybe after the last set back it is going to take Frozen a long time before she FORGIVES you.

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Larry,
maybe the list is centered. It has taken me far too long to grow this little bit. I wish all the time that I had been where I am at now 8 years ago. It would be a totally different outcome. That said, it isn't. And wishing for the past to go away is about as fruitful as me going to the lottery commission and demanding 100 million dollars.

and as they say... "slim just left town..."

FH,
There are several reasons I said that. You having your suspicions could possibly mean this is a trap, but I will be forthcoming and whatever will be will be.

I think that reading these forums is extremely helpful to the "just found out" crowd, but there comes a time when it begins to feel like Jerry Springer around here and many of our fellow posters are simply the audience members.

I have seen high school like behavior with people in cliques like there is some feudal system here. There isn't, and high school was over for most around here quite some time ago.

I think MB is a plan for life, but I think these infidelity forums are a stop on the road, not a place to make home. Get in here, get what you need and pass some around, and then get out. I think it becomes very easy to live in the past around here.

My heart hurts for the people that post in such dire need, behaving as though the end of their world has just occured. What bothers me more is a cry for help answered with bickering amongst 'veterans' about ideology, perception or the weather. On one hand, you hear "its not about you!", but on the other hand, the person screaming this is making it about them.

I think of all the times I was truly angry about what someone posted here and the times I replied in exactly the way I detest. I agree that you don't legislate posting styles, but that certainly doesn't mean you have to agree with people. I think about all the time I wasted stewing over some post here when I could have been doing something far more productive. Like talking with my wife. Meeting an EN or two.

The fact is that I gained a ton a valuable information coming to this site, but participating in the forum has been a mixed bag, for me. As a FWS, I really do appreciate the things I have read from people here... polite or otherwise. I have learned some things and changed some core behaviors.

At the center, my remark about reading the forum being seen as part of the problem, a more well thought out analogy is this. These forums are like chemo for cancer patients(WS). Sometimes it takes. Sometimes it doesn't. It does you some good, but it also does you some bad. As such, it is not something you participate in indefinitely. Without careful supervision from the DR., it is possible that the treatment becomes the poison...

Thats how I see it. I think there is plenty of value here. I really like the program and when I have followed it, things have been good.

I think it is sometimes easier to follow the program when you get your advice from the designer of the program and his staff rather than another person basically in the same boat as you.

And God Bless you FH.

patriot92 #2065113 05/29/08 06:50 AM
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This sentence made me wince and my heart break for Froz:

Quote
Why did I have an affair? Because I wanted the cheap sex and because I felt like it. I was not attached to Frozen, because I didn't allow myself to get close to anyone. There is nothing wrong with her... but there was with me. Emotionally unavailable, equating sex to love and approval, I was a dangerous person to have a relationship with. It isn't pretty, but it's honest. Probably why it's ugly. Thought getting sex off some woman at work with low morals would be cool. My morals matched, so we hooked up. It is really stupid and I regret it. More than anything I have ever regreted.

Because I don't see the bolded part has changed. The root cause of why you had an affair is that you avoid intimacy - you know, that true vulnerability that would allow Froz to have a few choices about your relationship? The kind of vulnerability where you aren't in control all the time? The kind of intimacy that lifts Froz and focuses on joyful service to the emotional needs of your partner?

No - you reduce it to an intellectual exercise - you want to figure it out, rather than feel through it and work that muscle you so protect from having to do any work.

Right now, you only see the cheating as bad. But until Kimberly helps you understand the intimacy avoidance/controlling behavior part you will never truly be safe from cheating again. If she has not identified this issue and put you through a process of FEELING rather than thinking, she's not the therapist who can help you.

Please re-read the part you wrote that I have highlighted in bold. Because you are still a dangerous person to have a relationship with - yet nothing changes except surrendering to an unfulfilling marriage for both of you.

How very sad. You won't surrender the one thing that could transform your life - the fear of intimacy/vulnerability.

I offer you this one response; because you deserve to know where the block is within yourself. However, if you are true to form, the intellectual jousting is just about to begin - and I won't participate. All that I can offer you is in this one response.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
KaylaAndy #2065138 05/29/08 07:41 AM
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Right now, you only see the cheating as bad. But until Kimberly helps you understand the intimacy avoidance/controlling behavior part you will never truly be safe from cheating again. If she has not identified this issue and put you through a process of FEELING rather than thinking, she's not the therapist who can help you.

Pat can speak for himself but I'm wondering how come you say this. Just by him being able to NAME and IDENTIFY his intimacy problems is GREAT, IMO.

I'm really struck by Pat's concerns/questions about the forum. Why would WE as AMATEURS know him better than Kimberly, whom it seems is his MBers' therapist who has gotten to know both of them INTIMATELY?

Quote
You won't surrender the one thing that could transform your life - the fear of intimacy/vulnerability.

MAYBE he CANNOT change this. I admire him for the CHANGES that he has made in this regard.


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
mimi_here #2065147 05/29/08 07:55 AM
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Mimi- naming the game is still an intellectual exercise.

If he really had identified and decided to address the intimacy problems it would be Froz that would be posting here about how wonderful things are and how much Pat has changed. The fact that he's talking about how much he's changed is meaningless. It has to be reflected in her eyes.

The silence is deafening.

And yes, I'm an amateur compared to a licensed pro that can charge for her expertise - a trained volunteer with experience in the dysfunctions that manifest themselves in the avoidance of intimacy.

Kimberly may be a licensed professional. But Pat is posting here; not Froz. And Pat is posting about being a martyr in his marriage. That's telling me that Kimberly is NOT the big help he claims. It also tells me that Pat has effectively silenced Froz from seeking any further help. That's the depth and breadth of Kimberly's influence on Pat.

I'm looking beyond Pat's words for evidence of change. But the first sentence in his post - the martyrdom sentence tells that his actions are not reflecting any "change" in his behavior or his heart.



Last edited by KaylaAndy; 05/29/08 07:56 AM.

Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
KaylaAndy #2065155 05/29/08 08:04 AM
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It has to be reflected in her eyes.

How do you know it's not reflected in her eyes. Maybe she has chosen NOT to post here.

Quote
And Pat is posting about being a martyr in his marriage. That's telling me that Kimberly is NOT the big help he claims. It also tells me that Pat has effectively silenced Froz from seeking any further help. That's the depth and breadth of Kimberly's influence on Pat.

Do you know this FOR SURE? This is an incredible indictment AGAINST Kimberly who is highly respected.

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I'm looking beyond Pat's words for evidence of change.

What else can we have except WORDS on a forum? I'm confused..


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
patriot92 #2065158 05/29/08 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by patriot92
I think there is plenty of value here. I really like the program and when I have followed it, things have been good.

Then, "By All Means", follow it!


Originally Posted by patriot92
I think it is sometimes easier to follow the program when you get your advice from the designer of the program and his staff rather than another person basically in the same boat as you.

Then start working with the designers. They are available!






Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
KaylaAndy #2065160 05/29/08 08:10 AM
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I was feeling lonely, so I thought "hey, I can be vulnerable to people that don't really know me"

Sad statment, Pat. We can't do anything for you except type out what we think, which seems to be the one thing you DON'T want, judging from the remainder of your post.

You have a perfectly good specimen of a wife to be vulnerable to, yet you come here. It is sad. We don't know you, and have nothing vested in your life, but your wife does, yet you come here, to a blank page, with flat script, and no real sustenance. Your wife has those things, and can provide the best counsel you could possibly get, yet you come here.

It all just reads like attention seeking.


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I understand Pat's FEAR OF INTIMACY.

It is a PAINFUL and DIFFICULT problem for those of us who have been HURT terribly throughout our lives.

Maybe that's why I come here so often.

I can't speak for him but coming here and sharing does not mean that he does not share with his wife.

It means that it is DIFFICULT for him..DIFFICULT is not a strong enough word for what I am saying.

All too often I have been VULNERABLE and OPEN to others and WOUNDED...

You see, maybe too much information for a FORUM but easier to say here than to someone IRL.



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I was feeling lonely, so I thought "hey, I can be vulnerable to people that don't really know me"

I appreciate HIS honesty.

I think LOTS of people do this by coming to a forum.


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
mimi_here #2065165 05/29/08 08:19 AM
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Mimi - contrast the recovery of Mrs. W and Mr. W who both post here to Pat and Froz. Or any other couple who both post here who have recovered and haven't surrendered the quality of their marriage to hopelessness.

Let's wait and see if Froz comes back. Her silence is an indictment on the quality of Pat's recovery and change. That's how we go beyond words here. I've been watching for posts from Froz for quite some time.

Kimberly may be very well respected and not deserve any disrespect from me. I'm simply stating that Pat thinks she's great - but if she's allowing his indulgence in fear-based behaviors, she's missing something. If Pat is simply hiding those aspects of his character from her, then he's not allowing her to help him as much as she is probably qualified to help him.

Pat's history of intellectually quantifying and qualifying his problems without getting to the roots is apparent in his threads dating back years now. Have you read them?


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
KaylaAndy #2065167 05/29/08 08:22 AM
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IMO, Pat should be accepted for who HE is.

This is HIS WALK in LIFE..this is HIS JOURNEY..not for us to JUDGE.

Maybe Froz does not CHOOSE to come here any longer.





I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
patriot92 #2065168 05/29/08 08:23 AM
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Pat,

You said that when you cheated that you were"not attached to Froz". How about now? Do you feel attached to her NOW or do you feel the same way? And what is different if you ARE attached?

Blessings,
WH2LE


WH2LE

BS(Me)-57
FWH-54
Married-5/26/2001(2nd for me, 1st for him)
DS-30
DD-27
D-Day-05/31/2007
KaylaAndy #2065169 05/29/08 08:23 AM
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Pat's history of intellectually quantifying and qualifying his problems without getting to the roots is apparent in his threads dating back years now.

Some folks are like this..

Some folks just can't be or are not PSYCHOLOGICALLY-MINDED...


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
mimi_here #2065173 05/29/08 08:26 AM
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I agree with you, Mimi ,that many people come here when they are lonely. I came here when PWC was not resonding to me in any way, shape or form. I came to get advice and to have someone from the outside tell me that I wasn't CRAZY for feeling so alone.

THAT is why I said it's sad. PWC had a wife who wanted nothing more than to connect, and he wouldn't. HE COULD, but he wouldn't. I know that it is tough to bear that underbelly, because I did it over and over again.



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SC – learning so much and things getting better don’t seem to be linked all the time. The truth is the mistakes I made since DDay are the real clincher and reason why things are not better. I ruined some ways for things to be recovered by injecting doubt into ways recovery could happen. Like transparency. I ended up lying about whereabouts in order to stay out of trouble and from that, me reporting where I am is useless. Transparency could have been access to emails and phonecalls discussing locations. I ruined that… so those idea no longer work. If I call now and inform her of where I am at, it does no good because I could be lying… as I had in the past. There is no fix for that. In short, the past is inerasable and seems to have a firm grip on the future. I wish it didn’t. That is does is not up to me and is out of my control. She can trust me because I know I can be trusted, but she won’t trust me because I made mistake after mistake in this area. I fully understand her stance on this, but understanding doesn’t produce a solution here.

KA – you said quite a lot. How do you feel your way through? How did you? You are an FWS right? What did you do to be so successful? I don’t feel the same as the remarks in bold now. Sex does not equal anything other than a physical act that CAN be a representation of one’s feelings for another. Love and approval… acceptance and care can be provided without sex ever existing. Giving yourself away is a tragedy, because you travel the road to self-destruction indulging your fantasies. And lying to yourself. I know that now. Do I sound like a robot? I have to. You are not the first person to call me emotionally unavailable. I am looking at me and still unable to find the thing that is the problem. Using the term martyr was a metaphor, not a definition. The truth is we both live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, have sex occasionally, participate in RC from time to time, and politely say hello to one another. Some days. The conversations are limited and strained. The decisiveness in the house is mostly gone. The floor is covered with eggshells. The fingers are all pointed at me. They should be for the betrayal. I am responsible for that, no doubt. But I am not responsible for Frozen’s previous baggage any more than she is responsible for mine. We have tons of that baggage. Both of us. Anyway.. I don’t really know what to say but I would like to understand the emotional part of this subject. Isn’t being vulnerable talking to people and facing your failure? Isn’t it being present to say “you know what… things are bad in our relationship and I started this mess” Isn’t it honest when I say I feel lonely and sad about the past I can not change? I know what I did to Frozen. She has feelings about it ranging from anger to despair. I understand why. I would feel these things too… I would like to understand… but I have said that for years now and I still don’t get it, I guess. Emotionally unavailable. I don’t even know how I am doing that now.

SL – I spent time talking to her last night. In fact I was trying to schedule her time with me. 15 hours. And that is a rare thing, because I do hide as a rule from emotional conflict. I came out last night and tried to schedule the 15 hours. Didn’t go great but we have some walks planned. But I don’t blame her. I spent a long time not doing much that she wanted, or rather was called for by simply following MB, and doing what I thought was good enough, being stubborn and ignorant. So I will keep trying with it in my mind that I have reinforced this response from her for years. I have a lot to overcome. Oh.. attention wasn’t what I wanted. Understanding myself and getting me out was what I wanted.

WH2LE – I am more attached to Frozen then before, but we still have big walls. The biggest difference is I don’t like the walls being there. I used to not care … in fact the walls enabled me. I want the intimacy. I don’t want to continue being separate and walled off. I want togetherness and closeness. I did many things to sabotage that. I don’t know if she can forgive me the wreckage I caused after the affair came to light. I admit, it is a ton to ask forgiveness for. I certainly don’t deserve it. But I would like to get it.

Mimi – Hi. Thanks for your perspective.

patriot92 #2065225 05/29/08 09:45 AM
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IMO, for what it's worth, I believe you doing the do, scheduling the time, no matter how hard it is, and then following through can go a long way. It's going to take massive amounts of TIME, and CONSISTENCY to get back to intimacy.

You know the drill. Follow the rules, like they are tattooed on your brain, even if you aren't seeing instant results, even if Frozen isn't into it, EVEN if you THINK you may end up divorced. Stop looking at some end result, because it never ends. Look to a better existence, where you take joy in scheduling that time. Marriage building never ends. If you aren't tough enough to deal with that, then it's not going to work.

Consider that the last lie was another Dday, and you are back at square one, back at the beginning. Begin again.

I wish I couldn't relate to your sitch, but I can. My WH wasn't interested in connecting at all. Every minute of every day was painful. Rejection over and over and over again. I wasn't in love, he wasn't in love, and I had no idea how we would ever get there again. I don't know if it would have worked out, but it would have gone a long way if he had taken the initiative to get things going. I tried to reach him, day in, day out. I gave up.




Last edited by silentlucidity; 05/29/08 09:48 AM.

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