BH75,

I think you are handling things very well so far.

Well said, Krazy ... and I concur with every word you posted.

Given the realities of these circumstances, it is almost laughable to hear some of the "hopeful" guideance being offered around here.

It's very refreshing to see a strong BH who is willing to stand up for his own SELF-RESPECT, whether he recovers his M or not.

While I do believe we must cooperate with God rather than expect Him to do "quick fixes", I think it's more than a little disingenuous for you guys to come onto a Christian website and scoff at God or Christian beliefs.

Folks:

I'm not religious, but bh75 is. How's about we try 2 work with him using the common 2ls and beliefs (such that there are any) that apply in dealing with infidelity.

kir:

This is not a Christian website.

-ol' 2long

**edit**

While I agree that the religious talk goes a bit overboard with FH FREQUENTLY, I seem to remember reading that the Harley's actually DO consider this a Christian website.

According to the Harleys it is. Not much use in me arguing the point, but I think I'll take their word for it.

medc, kir:

Really!? I never thought of it as such. Though I certainly realize that the Harleys are Christians.

I've always thought that people of all faiths, or lack thereof, were welcome here.

I would think that a "Christian website" would be for Christians alone - or at 'best' for believers and the occasional non-believer willing and interested in becoming a believer.

I'm not interested in becoming a "believer." BTDT, wore out the T-shirt.

-ol' 2long

I am NOT sure why you would think only Christians would be here 2Long. It is a Christian-based site to help marriages...while the foundation may be Christian, the principles can help many.

2long, yes, non-Christians ARE welcome here by the Harleys. But it would be disrespectful to mock their beliefs when on their turf; a little like accepting an invitation to a friend's home then belittling their politics over dinner.

It wouldn't be the end of the world, but would show a lack of manners.

Exactly!

I agree 1000 percent!

[quote][/quote]

This is the most disgusting and appalling statement I've ever read on MB. What about the pain that "CHILD" suffered, for me, and yes, even for you KRAZY.

Folks, lets stay away from the Christian bashing and focus on helping BH. Thanks...

**edit**

Oh yeah?? Well, I disgree a googolplex percent!!

This is silly. I've known that the Harleys are Chirstian since I first came here. I've had interactions wtih Christians, Jews, Muslims Buddhists, herds of other religions, and atheists and agnostics, and have never felt dissed in any way for not being a Christian on a site founded and run by people who are Christian...

-ol' 2long

So why the need to diss those who are? KRAZY could have gone all day, or the rest of his life, without making such an offensive (to Christians) statement.

Folks, lets get back to helping BH! I don't want to have to lock this thread.

THAT was the point, Krazy. None of us did. God did it for us anyway to make reconcilation with Him possible.

But He won't "force" even you to accept the offered gift.

Love is like that.

The response TO being loved is not always what is hoped for, but we do it anyway because that IS love.

Revera, don't you DARE lock this thread because a few have chosen to bash belief in God.

BH will make up his own mind as to what advice to listen to and what to ignore. But if you want to intervene, feel free to edit the "bashing" posts as you see fit.

I find it offensive to even suggest that God, or faith in God, is in any way an answer to the problems of a betrayed spouse. It's bad advice, plain and simple. You're fighting one type of fog with another.

If God is our creator, he either intentionally designed in, or intentionally overlooked, the flaw in EVERY SINGLE WS that is causing our pain now.

How many times do you have to read about the "good Christian mom/dad who strayed" before you begin to understand that faith is neither a preventative measure or a cure for infidelity?


I hope that BH continues to rely on himself; He's the only one he can truly depend on right now.

I agree, Riv:

Please don't lock this thread. I'll gladly take my NON-bashing 2 another thread, if there is one.

-ol' 2long

since when did YOU become the keeper of good advice???? You can't see past your own rage.

2Long, I do not think you were bashing. While you do not agree with religion...you certainly are respectful in the delivery of your views.

I'm every bit as qualified as you are to give advice, and being blinded by faith leaves you as sightless as being blinded by rage.

I thought you were just angry Krazy...immaturity seems to have a good hold of you too. There are some people blinded by faith for sure...others are too blind to see anything.

You've become a very angry young man Krazy. That is sad.

There has got to be a secret Christian Academy somewhere that teaches believers how to deal with non-believers.

Yeah, I must be "immature and angry" if I voice displeasure with your god.


Christian Gaslighting...is that distributed by the same publisher as the WS Handbook?

Krazy, you must have me confused with someone else...I am very far removed from judging others about their religious choices...in fact, I have gotten a hard time from other Christians here for suggesting some liberal views regarding salvation. What I see as immature is your slamming other people for their beliefs.

As far as your anger goes...well, I think that speaks for itself.

There is a big difference between slamming someone's belief's, and simply stating things they don't want to hear.

If they chime in with a 2,000 word religious diatribe, others should be allowed to offer an opposing viewpoint.

Oh, so your purpose was to convince the poster or the thread owner that leaning on God is a bad thing.

You have a lot of growing up to do. Emotional maturity added to your intellect would benefit you greatly.

May I ask what? Is that the 'faith versus works' debate I see around here sometimes?

You cannot or will not support your stance, you only hurl insults in an attempt to make yourself seem more intellectually and emotionally mature. You may not be a "typical" Christian, but you sure know how to use classic Christian debating tactics.

Am I actually wrong about something, or did I just irritate you?

well, yes..you are wrong. You make a ridiculous statement about a child only being dead for three days...blah, blah, blah. Do you have children? I would think not with that attitude. NOTHING could be remotely worse...NOTHING...than watching a child suffer the kind of torture that Christ endured.

And Krazy...standing next to you...it is not difficult for one to appear "more emotionally mature."

Someone asked me where I differ...

I have issues with quite a few things in Scripture(King David IMO is a dirt bag and I am left to wonder how he is a man that God tolerates much less loves with a passion) as well as those that think they have all the answers and hound people in a legalistic fashion. I happen to think that people like 2Long and Myschae are very good people(even when I disagree with them) and that a persons actions and good works go a long way towards their salvation(as I believe those works are a reflection of the heart). I even think that Krazy is a good person...he is just so angry right now, he can't see past that.

David repented from his sins.

EXACTLY ... we non-believers have to endure multiple posts from certain individuals DAILY, but let someone question them about how well their faith has served them, and all he!! breaks loose.

Some are suggesting that Krazy needs to mature ... I see it just the opposite. I think Krazy has considered his position and is comfortable with where he stands. It's the rest that seem to be hypocritical in their pretzel logic of how GOD can lead them home, but was no where around when they were going astray.

As a BH attempting to recover a M touched by infidelity, I understand that the ONLY person I can count on is ME. I have a close friend who knows about my situation, and FogFree is doing as good, if not a better job than any FWW here, but when it comes right down to it ... I have to look to ME to maintain MY own sanity and move forward. Sometimes I do pretty well, and other times the bitterness takes over, but in the end, its up to ME to pull myself through.

We talk and talk and talk about making waywards take responsibility for their own actions, and then in the same breath turn around and tell the betrayed to turn their own lives "over to God" ... kind of like little tin men looking to the all powerful OZ to heal their broken hearts.

"Well Oz didn't give nothing to the tin man, that he didn't already have.", and the same goes for me and every other BH here.

Maybe that song quote is what the "best" Christians would say as well. That God didn't give the BS a means 2 recover from infidelity that they didn't already possess. He just made them aware. And the free will part is where the BS takes responsibility for their own choices, lets the WS do the same, and 2rns the horror of the affair in2 an oppor2nity for spiri2al growth.

All that from a non-Christian perspective! ;oD

-ol' 2long

That bunch of load gives the WS permission to carry on and repeat.

The thing is, that no one was purposely trying to change YOUR mind about YOUR belief's when they posted to Sundevil.

If "certain indiduals" are posting to YOU, then I say have at it...provided you're not thread jacking another poster's thread to do it.

medc, that may be your perspective.

From my perspective the exact same thing could easily be said for "anti-Christian" talk too.

Thankfully, neither you nor I are the real judge. We are participants in an open forum with a plethora of views.

But it does seem a bit disingenuous for those "anti-faith" types to be so vehement on BH's thread when he stated that he believes that both he and his wife are believers, even if they have not been living as believers.

I'm sorry, Krazy, I missed the part about where you explained how evolution evolved these flaws and why they only exist in Wayward Spouses. You mean that NONE of us is "responsible for our own actions and choices?" We were either "intentionally designed" (an oximoron) by "nature's random accidents" or "intentionally overlooked" by some "omnipotent natural selection process after we somehow mysteriously achieved life from non-living matter?"

"If God ISN'T our creator, then Nature either intentionally designed in, or intentionally overlooked, the flaw in EVERY SINGLE WS that is causing our pain now."

Riiiiigggt. I'm buying your logic.

God neither "intentionally designed" in, nor "intentionally overlooked" the "flaw" (called SIN). In fact, despite our CHOICE, God provided the means to "correct the flaw" and allow people to choose FOR God again, without removing their ABILITY TO choose.

The "ball," so to speak, "is in our individual courts."

So let's not blame God for our own choices, eh.

I understand your point, but just what do you think is the post ratio of faith based advice vs. anti-faith based advice. My guess is we're easily in the 100+ : 1 range, so its not like we're comparing apples to apples.

Furthermore, we see advice questioned here everyday, but ONLY when it is someone questioning faith based advice does the board get their collective panties in a wad.

I'm sorry, but I'll let the results speak for themselves ... how often has faith based advice been effective here at MB?. It is usually dismissed out of hand by waywards, and is most often used by betrayeds to justify DOING NOTHING!!! Neither of which do anything to actually address the very real issue of adultery.

And that's where you are wrong, MyRev. I'll give you three examples among many:

1. He gave us life, we are not an "accident" of nature.

2. He gave us salvation from the penalty of sin, not the removal of the sin-nature.

3. God the Son gave us Himself in full payment of the wrath of God on sin, dying in our place.


But like everything else you ascribe to self, you can choose to believe or choose not to believe, God isn't interested in you being a slave or robot with "no choice in the matter."

Just an interesting note....

One of the definitions of Revelation (your post name)

MyRev, then you are not listening or reading to arrive at that erroneous conclusion.



Again, you ingore the many times people have adamantly stated that they don't want any "religious talk" on their thread.

Another interesting note... (my opinion only, of course)

On the way to work this morning, I was thinking to myself...I'll bet the way people conduct themselves on the MB forum is the way they conduct themselves in life.

It's interesting to observe. I'm learning.

I think there is a big difference between critiquing advice that someone has given and attacking a person's deity.


This site supports the ideas of Dr. Harley, which happen to also be in line w/ the teachings of Christianity.

There have been plenty of success stories.

FYI

This is an excerpt of an interview with Dr. and Joyce Harley. It talks about his use or lack of use of Scripture in his work.

---------------------------------------------------------------

FamilyChristian.com: One interesting facet of your book is that you refrain from using specific Scriptures to back up your principles. As a result, you're reaching both Christian and non-Christian couples. Was that your intent?

Bill: The reason I did it was not for the secular reader. I did it for the Christian reader who is having a bad marriage and is totally turned off by everything Christian. This is what you essentially get in a bad marriage, especially with somebody having an affair. The last thing they want to hear is some Scripture on adultery. The approach I was taking was what I would use with a pastor or a missionary or an evangelist that was having problems with a marriage. They already know that they are clearly out of God's will if they are having an affair, but they also need to understand that they're out of God's will if they're not meeting their spouse's emotional needs.

---------------------------------------------------------------

FamilyChristian.com: What is your response to those who criticize the lack of Scripture?

Bill: There's nothing in [His Needs, Her Needs] that is inconsistent with Scripture. That's an extremely important point. This business on physical attractiveness [is a sticking point] for [some] Christians. They say, "Hmmm. I wonder if Jesus Christ would have written that." I feel like I'm in the will of God on this one but it still jumps out at you.

Joyce: To me what's in the will of God is that your mate not be tempted by someone else. You're building an affair-proof marriage. That's in the will of God to have an affair-proof marriage. Another thing I wanted to bring up regarding your not having Scripture [in the book] is that your concepts have touched people outside of the church and outside of Christendom.

Bill: [It's] brought them in. I had a couple in Oregon [contact me.] She was a pagan believer and he was a Buddhist and they both prayed to their gods that they would be led to someone who would save their marriage. They both independently found our website and came to me and they said, "Isn't it remarkable that our gods would have sent us to a Christian?" (Laughs).

---------------------------------------------------------------

Here’s the whole interview. Probably a good read before anyone posts what they believe is the truth about Dr. Harley’s position and use of his Christian beliefs with regards to his work.

http://www.familychristian.com/books/harley.asp


I guess the answer is everyday MB principles and tools are used properly.


Just thought everyone would like to know.

S&C

See FH ... this is where you lose all credibility. Simply because I don't "believe" as you believe, then I'm WRONG!!!

Now personally, I find it silly to waste so much of the limited time we have in this life contorting to the moving target of the various organized religions and demonimations, but I recognize that certain individuals get a certain comfort from following, and I can understand and respect that, even if I don't agree with it for myself.

However, I am seldom granted the same tolerance to "not" believe, as you yourself have evidenced by your "WRONG" statement. Now we can chase our tails around and around debating the undebatable, since we're talking about "personal" faith or the lack thereof, but I'm not here to debate whether we're dealing with an omnipotent entity or a myth. I come here to learn about and deal with infidelity, and quite frankly within this context, the whole subject is meaningless if you're hoping for the supernatural to cure the "real" for anyone other than ourselves.

That was interesting, and informative.

I've read Dr. Harley's books. Almost all of them, I think. I see nothing in them that conflicts with scripture from the Bible, but I also don't see them as exclusively Christian.

I do think there needs to be at least a detaunt (How do you spell that? I'm bad at French.) between the aethists and the evangelicals. I'm not asking for respect because I doubt very much there can be respect when two sets of people so truly believe that the others are misguided and dead wrong.

MyRev, I understand your viewpoint. There ARE only 3 possibilities here:

1. You are right and I am wrong.

2. I am right and you are wrong.

3. We are both wrong.

The third possibility really doesn't exist, though. The reason is that there ARE only 2 possibilities for how "we" got here: "Evolution" of life from non-life by random natural processes with NO purpose, just an accident OR; Creation by a living God who created with a purpose in mind for His creation.

Given that, only "possibilities 1 and 2 really apply. It has to do with what is TRUE, regardless of opinion or "sincere belief."



Therefore either I am wrong or you are wrong. It has nothing to do with whether or not you or I are "credible."

That is no different than it would be if you and I disagreed on what color the sky was on a clear day(say blue vs. red) or whether or not a rock was "alive" or "dead" or whether or not the sun revolves around the earth or the earth revolves around the sun.

I understand, MyRev. To you, it (faith in God and God's help) is foolishness.

Let me restate the my position (which I also believe is THE Christian position):

"I can do all things through him (Christ) who gives me (his) strength."

The "difference" is in "his will" versus "my will." When the two are operating in concert, they are POWERFUL. But in all cases it is NOT that "God will do it for me," it is God does it THROUGH me and with me.

This is one of the passages she used to justify the divorce.

"God" told her it was ok to do such an abominable thing.

FH:

Well, I promise not 2 get back in2 that old argument about evolution by pointing out that you're wrong because you mix "origins" with "evolution."

And yes, there is that third possibility:

Your [censored] is right for you, and my [censored] is right for me.

Ain't it grand? I've just solved everyone's problems.

-ol' 2long