Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
I posted this over in the "just found out" board too, and it was recommended I post this here as well.

I don't know if this is the right board to post this, my apologies if it isn't. I'm hoping it is since it's only been a little over 2 weeks since I found out about my DH's EA.

As I mentioned in my introductory post, my DH is a freemason and has been since he was 15 (he started out in DeMolay). He's moving up through the grand lodge line to higher officer positions, and this is very important to him. Part of his obligation to do that is to visit other lodges across the state - and some out of state as well. Since finding out about his EA he's had two out of state events he "had" to attend. He paid for the plane tickets months ago, says he "made a commitment" to go, blah, blah, blah. They're nowhere near the OW, BTW.

I know this is still really early on, but I'm really angry about this. I feel like it's representative of all his selfishness and self-centeredness he's expressed for much of our relationship. I feel like I'm being forced to trust that he's not doing anything he shouldn't be, long before I'm ready to. I'm angry, scared, and hurt, and pretty fed up. He wants to make things work and has made improvements, but he seems to only want to make improvements when it's convenient to his schecule, and I have to spoon-feed the information to him. I want him to be as gung-ho about making changes as I am. Is this too much to ask? I'm just feeling lost right now in all his selfishness, and pretty overwhelmed. There's a side-group affiliated with freemasonry that's all about partying, and he joined it against my wishes. Since joining I found an anonymous letter on the internet (supposedly fake), that alleges prostitution and sex contests go on at some of these events. Also allegations were recently made that some men in a chapter in another state tried to hire girls for prostitution as well, and the FBI is investigating other charges (though the prostitution charges have supposedly been dropped). DH swears none of the prostitution allegations are true, but he really has no way of proving that to me, and refuses to quit. He says he can see my point of view but knows the truth and is willing to modify his attendance - the next upcoming event is in April and he's offered not to stay overnight to prove there's no wrongdoing. I want all remnants of his selfish ways to be gone. I'm willing to not ask he quit freemasonry, but the other group makes me extremely uncomfortable and I'm very upset he's so adamant about staying involved in something he knows is upsetting to me.

Any input? Thanks.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
You only found out about the EA two weeks ago... it is going to take you a LONG time to trust him, and you don't owe him any trust. He has to EARN it and PROVE that he is trustworthy.

Is he still involved in the EA? How do you know that?

He has a lot of changes to make - he needs to lose the Independent Behavior and learn to POJA decisions with you. He won't be ready for any of that until he's completely over the EA and no longer in withdrawal.

It's hard to say much more without knowing a little more about your situation and especially the timeline.

I'm sorry you're here, but it's a good place to be if you need it.

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
Originally Posted by turtlehead
You only found out about the EA two weeks ago... it is going to take you a LONG time to trust him, and you don't owe him any trust. He has to EARN it and PROVE that he is trustworthy.

Is he still involved in the EA? How do you know that?

He has a lot of changes to make - he needs to lose the Independent Behavior and learn to POJA decisions with you. He won't be ready for any of that until he's completely over the EA and no longer in withdrawal.

It's hard to say much more without knowing a little more about your situation and especially the timeline.

I'm sorry you're here, but it's a good place to be if you need it.

Whoops, sorry, I guess that would have been helpful, huh?

The OW lives in another state (about 1800 miles away, to be exact), and they've only seen each other twice. I have monitoring software on our computer, I'm tracking his cell activity on our provider's website, and I've blocked her number from texting him. I also contacted her BF through myspace (which is how I caught her and my DH) and told him what was going on. I contacted her and let her know I knew about her - tried to confront her by phone but she wouldn't pick up (she knew it was me), so instead I texted her twice. The second text I called her every filthy thing I could think of and told her she was a worthless piece of garbage for getting involved with a married man with two small children. Probably not really "right", but I was in agony and wanted to hurt her as bad as I'd been hurt, and I don't regret it even now. They were having cyber sex via text, she sent him a naked pic of herself, and they would also talk on the phone (though supposedly never had phone sex). Because she was dating another mason, it's possible my DH could get kicked out if OW BF decides to press charges. I understand it'll be difficult over state lines, though not impossible, if he's ticked off enough to do it. That's a BIG if.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: May 2006
Posts: 982
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 982
You say they have seen each other twice. Where did they see each other; was it due to a conection with the club? Was it due to her boyfriends connection with the club? I think this is an important piece of information that could be important regarding your implementation of "exposure". Is your H answering all of your questions? Does he know about all of the ways that you are monitoring him?

You have found a very good site to help you through this time of your life. I am sorry that you need to be here, but it is a very good place to be. Keep talking to us.


Lake
BW-53
FWH-54
H had EA 3 weeks 06
Married 1977

N C 4-10-06
3 DSs
In Recovery
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
You are probably not going to recover unless your H gets serious, bs. He is making the problem WORSE by traveling and you are RIGHT to not trust him. He is untrustworthy. Here is what Dr Harley says:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
Originally Posted by lake53
You say they have seen each other twice. Where did they see each other; was it due to a conection with the club? Was it due to her boyfriends connection with the club? I think this is an important piece of information that could be important regarding your implementation of "exposure". Is your H answering all of your questions? Does he know about all of the ways that you are monitoring him?

You have found a very good site to help you through this time of your life. I am sorry that you need to be here, but it is a very good place to be. Keep talking to us.

Her BF came into town on business, brought her with him. He decided to visit my DH's lodge - that's where my DH met the BF. They went out afterwards, the BF brought his girlfriend with him. It was the three of them the whole time....I'm not sure how they exchanged phone numbers without the BF being suspicious. He lives in a different state from her (and us).

He knows I'm monitoring his email, texts, and the site, he doesn't know about the monitoring software or that I blocked her number from texting him. He seems to be much more forthright than he ever has and I can tell he's being honest with his answers. He even fessed up to the picture without me asking him.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: May 2006
Posts: 982
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 982
Originally Posted by broken_soul
Originally Posted by lake53
You say they have seen each other twice. Where did they see each other; was it due to a conection with the club? Was it due to her boyfriends connection with the club? I think this is an important piece of information that could be important regarding your implementation of "exposure". Is your H answering all of your questions? Does he know about all of the ways that you are monitoring him?

You have found a very good site to help you through this time of your life. I am sorry that you need to be here, but it is a very good place to be. Keep talking to us.

Her BF came into town on business, brought her with him. He decided to visit my DH's lodge - that's where my DH met the BF. They went out afterwards, the BF brought his girlfriend with him. It was the three of them the whole time....I'm not sure how they exchanged phone numbers without the BF being suspicious. He lives in a different state from her (and us).

He knows I'm monitoring his email, texts, and the site, he doesn't know about the monitoring software or that I blocked her number from texting him. He seems to be much more forthright than he ever has and I can tell he's being honest with his answers. He even fessed up to the picture without me asking him.

Listen to Mel as she is one of the smartest on this site regarding breaking up an affair.

You say you can tell he is being honest with his answers--The only way you can tell if a wayward's answers are honest is if you have proof other than the words coming out of their mouth.

He is continuing his wayward ways if he thinks he can continue going to that lodge without you there. It is perfectly normal and sane that you feel panicky about him going to the Lodge without you considering what happened. Yet, he is also planning on going on overnights without you?

It does not seem that he yet fully appreciates the damage he has done to his marriage. It is very smart of you to want him to stay at home. It is what is recommended by this site. He should not stay overnight without you, let alone go to a conference that you do not trust.

But the conference is several months away. What are his other behaviors like right now? Is he going to that Lodge without you? Is he being accountable for all of his time? Do you have access to all of his credit card statements and phone bills? Is he able to spend money from that other Lodge account for purposes other than the upcoming overnight?


Lake
BW-53
FWH-54
H had EA 3 weeks 06
Married 1977

N C 4-10-06
3 DSs
In Recovery
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
Originally Posted by lake53
Originally Posted by broken_soul
Originally Posted by lake53
You say they have seen each other twice. Where did they see each other; was it due to a conection with the club? Was it due to her boyfriends connection with the club? I think this is an important piece of information that could be important regarding your implementation of "exposure". Is your H answering all of your questions? Does he know about all of the ways that you are monitoring him?

You have found a very good site to help you through this time of your life. I am sorry that you need to be here, but it is a very good place to be. Keep talking to us.

Her BF came into town on business, brought her with him. He decided to visit my DH's lodge - that's where my DH met the BF. They went out afterwards, the BF brought his girlfriend with him. It was the three of them the whole time....I'm not sure how they exchanged phone numbers without the BF being suspicious. He lives in a different state from her (and us).

He knows I'm monitoring his email, texts, and the site, he doesn't know about the monitoring software or that I blocked her number from texting him. He seems to be much more forthright than he ever has and I can tell he's being honest with his answers. He even fessed up to the picture without me asking him.

Listen to Mel as she is one of the smartest on this site regarding breaking up an affair.

You say you can tell he is being honest with his answers--The only way you can tell if a wayward's answers are honest is if you have proof other than the words coming out of their mouth.

He is continuing his wayward ways if he thinks he can continue going to that lodge without you there. It is perfectly normal and sane that you feel panicky about him going to the Lodge without you considering what happened. Yet, he is also planning on going on overnights without you?

It does not seem that he yet fully appreciates the damage he has done to his marriage. It is very smart of you to want him to stay at home. It is what is recommended by this site. He should not stay overnight without you, let alone go to a conference that you do not trust.

But the conference is several months away. What are his other behaviors like right now? Is he going to that Lodge without you? Is he being accountable for all of his time? Do you have access to all of his credit card statements and phone bills? Is he able to spend money from that other Lodge account for purposes other than the upcoming overnight?

He hasn't been to a lodge meeting, but he's been away on two multi-day trips since d-day (including one right now). We're in dire financial circumstances right now (bankruptcy/foreclosure), so no credit card statements, and I have full access to phone records (I'm monitoring his use by the cell provider's site). He's not *supposed* to spend that money for anything else other than upcoming lodge visitations.

The thing coming up in April is separate - I know it's confusing with the little detail I've given....it was confusing to me for a long time. He's a mason, and a member of a bunch of little "side clubs" that require you to be a mason to join or be invited. He's also a Shriner (maybe that'll give you a point of reference). You have to be a mason to be a Shriner.

This is something he's been working towards since he was 15 (moving up in grand lodge). He joined this other group after we got married, against my wishes. I'm having a lot of trouble trying to process it all...the main thing I have trouble with is that one group - they're called the Jesters. But then I think - when he met the OW he wasn't even at a Jester's event.... frown it was after a regular lodge meeting (I think). I'm sorry...I'm really confused.

Last edited by broken_soul; 07/17/08 05:38 PM.

Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
I'm just in unbelievable pain right now. I feel like he's poured salt into my open wound and rubbed it in. He wants to work things out, but wanted to get these two things out of the way first. I feel absolutely frantic and desperate to get rid of this pain.

I'm so tired of feeling second and disrespected, disregarded. I've been MORE than fair to him, and he returns the favor by having an EA.

I don't know what the right answer to anything is anymore. I'm so overwhelmed. We have two small boys and I'm scared to be alone with them. I don't have family to support me...I'm really stuck.

I texted him and told him he's making it very obvious he thinks he can still have his cake & eat it too and told him he's torturing me. He's been extremely remorseful throughout this whole thing - but it's not enough to get him to quit being selfish I guess. I told him I didn't want to hear from him - that I would contact him when I was ready.

I don't know how much more of this I can take.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: May 2006
Posts: 982
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 982
Has he agreed to having "no contact" with this other woman? Has he written a no contact letter to her that you have approved and that you sent out to her? How do you know that the OW's boyfriend or husband knows about the affair?

If your Husband has agreed to "no contact" and has willingly sent the "no contact" letter, you need only expose this affair to the other woman's boyfriend/husband. It is important that you expose the affair to the boyfriend/husband so that he can help you by keeping track of the OW and her behavior to ensure no contact with your husband.

The OW's boyfriend/husband has a right to know what has been going on between your H and his girlfriend/wife. this info should be given to him by you. Don't rely on what your H tells you regarding what the OW's husband knows.

But first, has your H agreed to no contact?, and sent out the no contact letter?

I agree with Mel that your H has to get serious about his marriage. He cannot begin recovery after he has accomplished or attended "whatever". What is this Jester group? Who are the other members in it that you know? I would be very leary of any private all-men's group with a husband who has had an affair. You are right to be leary of this group. A quick google search on them did not make feel feel any better about them.

Things can get better for you and your marriage. It will take a while for you to find your bearings. Think about your boundaries and what behavior you can accept and what behavior you cannot accept from your H. It may help you to write some of this down in a journal. This secret society stuff does not seem compatible with recovery from an affair.


Lake
BW-53
FWH-54
H had EA 3 weeks 06
Married 1977

N C 4-10-06
3 DSs
In Recovery
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639


Originally Posted by lake53
Has he agreed to having "no contact" with this other woman? Has he written a no contact letter to her that you have approved and that you sent out to her? How do you know that the OW's boyfriend or husband knows about the affair?

If your Husband has agreed to "no contact" and has willingly sent the "no contact" letter, you need only expose this affair to the other woman's boyfriend/husband. It is important that you expose the affair to the boyfriend/husband so that he can help you by keeping track of the OW and her behavior to ensure no contact with your husband.

The OW's boyfriend/husband has a right to know what has been going on between your H and his girlfriend/wife. this info should be given to him by you. Don't rely on what your H tells you regarding what the OW's husband knows.

But first, has your H agreed to no contact?, and sent out the no contact letter?

I agree with Mel that your H has to get serious about his marriage. He cannot begin recovery after he has accomplished or attended "whatever". What is this Jester group? Who are the other members in it that you know? I would be very leary of any private all-men's group with a husband who has had an affair. You are right to be leary of this group. A quick google search on them did not make feel feel any better about them.

Things can get better for you and your marriage. It will take a while for you to find your bearings. Think about your boundaries and what behavior you can accept and what behavior you cannot accept from your H. It may help you to write some of this down in a journal. This secret society stuff does not seem compatible with recovery from an affair.

Yes, he has agreed to no contact. He called her in front of me and told her it was over - period. I contacted her bf through myspace and told him what was going on. We don't have a home phone - just cell phones, and I've been monitoring his use. There has been no attempted contact by either of them since she forwarded my nasty text I sent her, to him (I had already forwarded it to him). He texted her back and said "we can't talk any more - ever." He hasn't told me anything about what the OW's BF knows - he doesn't have any further contact with him, either. She lives in one state, the BF another, and us in a third - all several hundred miles (and we're well over 1500 miles from her)apart. So that part is relatively easy. The odds of DH seeing OW's BF are pretty slim.

I honestly don't mind him being a freemason, but I do have an issue with the Jesters because of the rumors (as you've seen). He's always sworn up & down none of that is true, but he's shown me he can't be trusted as it is. The other men that I know that are in that group are also married - some with small children like ours, others with grown children. I wouldn't even mind the traveling had I been able to go with him, but up to this point I wasn't able to because our boys were so little and I was breastfeeding, plus our younger son was chronically sick. Family support on my side is nonexistent (I had to cut my parents out of my life as they are extremely abusive alcoholics), and family support from DH's side is intermittent at best.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: May 2008
Posts: 86
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 86
Originally Posted by broken_soul
I honestly don't mind him being a freemason, but I do have an issue with the Jesters because of the rumors (as you've seen).

What are freemasons?


Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,121 guests, and 43 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5