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#2107112 08/09/08 08:37 AM
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Hi Mike,

Are you done going nuts yet?? Well, I know that you're not, but I'm going to give you a list of advice---because you're starting to damage your chances for reconciliation right now.

1. Call 888-639-1639. ASAP. You need a plan!! You're in an important juncture right now, and you could be using this to your advantage in regards to recovering your marriage. But you're not. You're just really angry, pissed, and your emotions are swinging back and forth all over the place. Not good for you. Not good for your wife. Not good for your kids.

2. Act like your plan is to recover your marriage. You can always change your mind later---but it's way harder to act like your plan is to be involved in the most acrimonious divorce possible and THEN change your mind to recovery. (Not impossible---just harder).

3. If you need your wife to leave, then ask her to do so---knock off the threats and demands. Ask her to move to her sisters for a while while you deal with the hurt and anger. Tell her that you have no idea how you're going to work through this to try to fix the marriage---but you don't want her around you while you're so angry. If she tries to flip flop and asks you to leave---handle it calmly but firmly let her know that it's not going to be a way that will help you figure this out.

4. While you can listen, don't place deep stock in anything she says regarding feelings for the OM (lots) or you and the marriage (little). This is simply a product of where she is right now---it's like taking the temperature of an ice cube. The good news is that the tools to effect change are on this site, and Steve or Jenn can help you with that. The quote you didn't like---that's Dr. Bill's---not Steve's.

5. Realize that you will have most of your support network on your side (both yours and hers). One reason I wanted you to delay exposure a bit was so that you could get your head around a plan to execute---so that you would be ready to take advantage of the situation. You didn't, and it's very hard to ad lib. This is an advantage for you now, but you shouldn't be squandering it. Your wife is an addict who has been exposed to the world---she will have an incredibly difficult time dealing with all this. In fact, I'm 90% sure that she will come out of this much worse for the wear than you. Given the fact that she's an addict, you should expect addict like behavior. Lying, wild swings in emotion, bargaining, etc. It is what it is---don't get caught up in in.

6. If you can commit to trying to work on a recovery plan, it will be best for the two of you to get out of town for an extended 'vacation'. This is to help your wife through withdrawal AND to have her change her focus of getting needs met from the OM to you. You have to be up for that---and you need to start doing a self-assessment of where you think you weren't meeting her needs.

7. Stop dragging your kids into this. You will scar them for life. You need to show grace and love under some horrible pressure. I know that you're made of tougher stuff---so get this under control immediately.

That's a long enough list for now...

K #2107139 08/09/08 10:38 AM
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Request as polite as possible...could K and JL be the only ones to post here? With all due respect I have more posts and time in than 90 percent of you guys and I don't need Harley 101, I've counseled with Steve.

K,

This was my thinking.

Everyone in the family was sort of outraged that she'd slid right back in and tried to play nothing happened. We're sitting around crying, and twenty fours hours after the horrendous scene she's talking about cooking a family dinner, and called the OM to "ask if he was alright" (Thurs AM) The OM shut her down big time with no contact and you could see she was in mourning. Then we had that crappy conversation. That was fun. No relationship talks in withdrawl, dumba$$.

So, getting her out of the house made some sense to me....I guess you say it was a crater in my lovebank to see her flitting around being smiling mom.

And it had the desired effect in terms of waking her up. And it had the desired effect in terms of making me not feel like a total wuss. So maybe we can go forward on an even keel on a Plan A, because I sure as hell wasn't ready for one.

Now, will we go forward? I'm not sure these events are determinant on that. One of the last things she said is she was committed to working on the marriasge, so, maybe, when things settle, my anger subsides, her affair mourning subsides...but, this time, I'm NOT toting the water for a reluctant spouse.

One thing that is a little worrisome is that I did an excellent job in nuking her support system. She sent an email basically quitting her church (although only the pastor knows, but I think she can't face him, they were close). She quit her job (OM there). She is going to stay with her sister, whose husband is a big blue collar coarse Catholic and will probably spit on her every ten minutes.

I mean, I hope she doesn't put a bullet in her head....but, at the same time, perhaps this will accelerate the awakening from the affair withdraw? Or will it make those good old days nostalgic? One thing that really upset me last night is when she talked about the end of the affair it was always about the guy reconciling with his wife, she couldn't get the sad look off her face talking about it, not our relationship or family. She had this fantasy that he was going to step in for me (and immediately file for bankrutcy keeping up my huge house).

As far as ask her to leave, the whole family did in a screamfest and she just hunkered down Wednesday and refused. So something had to move the needle.

Bottomline is....I'm a proud guy. I'm successful, and you know from my history I have worked hard on this marriage solo for years. It depends whether I get Jekyl or Hyde next time she's around -- and Jekyl better be consistent in her behavior.

The lovebank is empty, Brother K. I can't wait through some long withdrawal. Hence the push to separate for a bit here -- I'd be screaming at her daily.

<sigh> Everyone says the same thing...this quiet little religious girl, its unbelievable. I forget whether I said this, but her pastor suggested an MRI for a brain tumor. That's how out of left field this one is.

You're 100 percent right on the kids, although the 17 yr old boy is singing his own tune here, no encouragement needed from me. I'm sure when she comes back I'll have to smack him to respect her.

I think what I'll do right now is give the pastor her cell phone #, and he can say I asked him to reach out because I was worried (and I am) Some crumbs....








Mike_C2 #2107152 08/09/08 11:04 AM
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Quote
Request as polite as possible...could K and JL be the only ones to post here? With all due respect I have more posts and time in than 90 percent of you guys and I don't need Harley 101, I've counseled with Steve.

I confess I have no way to know if you have more posts or not, but I will abide by your request.

Allow me, if you will, one final thought and if you want any further discussion with me I will be on the Recovery Forum.



Quote
Bottomline is....I'm a proud guy. I'm successful, and you know from my history I have worked hard on this marriage solo for years. It depends whether I get Jekyl or Hyde next time she's around -- and Jekyl better be consistent in her behavior.

The lovebank is empty, Brother K. I can't wait through some long withdrawal. Hence the push to separate for a bit here -- I'd be screaming at her daily.

<sigh> Everyone says the same thing...this quiet little religious girl, its unbelievable. I forget whether I said this, but her pastor suggested an MRI for a brain tumor. That's how out of left field this one is.

You're 100 percent right on the kids, although the 17 yr old boy is singing his own tune here, no encouragement needed from me. I'm sure when she comes back I'll have to smack him to respect her.

I think what I'll do right now is give the pastor her cell phone #, and he can say I asked him to reach out because I was worried (and I am) Some crumbs....

Are you trying to "use" religion for what you might be able to "get out of it?"

I guess we'll never have the chance to explore that more, especially since you have chosen to not answer my previous questions about YOUR faith.


Good luck Mike, I sincerely mean that.


Mike_C2 #2107157 08/09/08 11:11 AM
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Hi Mike,

Quote
I'm NOT toting the water for a reluctant spouse.

Bottomline is....I'm a proud guy. I'm successful, and you know from my history I have worked hard on this marriage solo for years. It depends whether I get Jekyl or Hyde next time she's around -- and Jekyl better be consistent in her behavior.

The lovebank is empty, Brother K. I can't wait through some long withdrawal. Hence the push to separate for a bit here -- I'd be screaming at her daily.

I understand. You've been doing this for a long time, and it doesn't feel very good to be repaid with this type of behavior. I also recognize that your lovebank is likely to be dipping into the red---and that's why I think it's essential that you:

1. Get the pros working with you
2. Keep your distance until you're able to deal with her
3. Realize that this is a process that you can be VERY SUCCESSFUL with, but you won't get there until your head gets control of your heart and gut.

I'm not going to be around much of the rest of the day, so I want to leave you with this thought. You are in a situation that will not seem like reality---it took me months to fully understand and recognize what my wife had done after I discovered her affair. And you're going to have a hard time making good decisions right now, because most of your instincts will go to fight/flight. Neither is helpful when your wife is the enemy, and you want your marriage. Please give the Harley's a call and get in with them ASAP. The legal stuff will likely wait a bit (I don't see your wife emptying bank accounts and running up credit cards).

You really need a solid coach to help you get through this---because you've carried the load for a long time, you won't feel like signing up for another couple years of this with a mopey wife. She'll need to get that message in a clear, concise manner---but it'll be better if it comes from a third party who is working on saving your marriage. Now's the time to make that call and start to get engaged---no matter how crappy you feel.

And once you do, you'll be glad you did. This I can promise you...




K #2107201 08/09/08 01:13 PM
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K, here is my current feelings:

1. I'm a wimp for considering reconciliation. This affair was outrageous, involving my kids and even my home. I should send her packing. Plus, her family all knows it, a bunch of blue collar mooks, and I'll feel like a wimp at every family occasion for the next 30 years.

2. She was zero repentant and zero considering working on the marriage this week until her access to the kids was threatened (actually, removed today). Now it is begging and pleading and sobbing and promises. She has been withdrawn and cold for a decade, am I an idiot to think it will change once she is back with the kids?

3. She says she'll "do counseling, whatever I want". Well, I already towed her through counseling once, and she was dead weight.

4. I'll never get the pictures out of my head. I asked and got specifics, she was honest, and it was in my house. Maybe if she comes on like sexual gangbusters with the passion we had 20 years ago that will be masked for awhile, but that will fade, her effort to woo me will fade, and I'll be left miserable.

5. She just went no contact Thursday....how long until he is out of her head? Am i wasting time with this "reconciliation" (or faux effort to get back in the house)

Bottomline -- I think she would more or less welcome a divorce if I hadn't said I'd go for the kids. and she'd be pretty guilt free if the kids hadn't been so strong.

Now....what do I have to lose to try I guess? Can enjoy her groveling and better sex for awhile, and always split in the future.

Also, she expects to be back in the house a week from today. Do I extend that? A week seems like light punishment for her horrible actions, plus it may be time we all need. She could use the OM withdrawal time, I could use the lack of love bank drain, the kids could use the break from drama.

Also, when I do let her back in, I'm inclined to have a sexual relationship but separate bedrooms. Just to underline that all is not well yet.


Mike_C2 #2107220 08/09/08 03:25 PM
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Emailed a note today pointing out the three week minimum withdrawal period and saying she shouldn't move back in until that had past and she was mentally ready to re-enter the marriage and family with all her heart and mind.

I gave all the links and excerpts. Told her she could see the kids, just not me and can't sleep here.

Harsh? Correct? The point is, this reconciliation is a one shot deal. Most guys would be in court already. I told her she better bring her A game.

Mike_C2 #2107224 08/09/08 03:47 PM
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Hi Mike,

Current feeling have a duration of around 10 minutes at this stage, so I'm way behind the curve here! smile

1. What's harder---reconciliation or a divorce. You're not a wimp for considering this. Would your family support you?? I hope the answer is yes, but if it's a no, then you need to find other support. And 888-639-1639.

2. Typical addict response. Both the zero repentance and the begging and pleading. Unfortunately only about 10% of spouses are immediately repentant and get to work upon outing of the affair. I wish it would happen more often, but it doesn't. The fact that she's not come along like you want in the marriage is a real concern---and both she and you are clearly going to have work to do to bridge the gap.

3. You have another opportunity. And this one might be better, because she's probably pretty clear as to what she's going to lose. If you both go into counseling and work on it---you have a great chance. And my prediction is that you'll be more dead weight than she'll be (especially the more successful you're becoming). These patterns are very predictable. But you absolutely can be successful, and I wouldn't be pushing you if I didn't think you had a chance.

4. Sorry about the pictures. Hey---look at my pictures---some of my wife's affair happened in my house and I STILL haven't had sex here. But frankly, the pictures faded a long time ago... and the past doesn't bother me.

5. No contact is good, but very hard for an addict in the beginning. Expect it to fail (although you've exposed strongly enough that it may not be too much of an issue). You mentioned

Quote
Emailed a note today pointing out the three week minimum withdrawal period and saying she shouldn't move back in until that had past and she was mentally ready to re-enter the marriage and family with all her heart and mind.

Here's the Harley advice: you have an opportunity to help your wife through withdrawal by being with her, supporting her as possible, eliminating lovebusters, and trying to meet needs that she'll allow you to meet. You can't do that separated. Harley would tell you to take a three week vacation with your wife where you can't be disturbed (and she can't communicate with the OM)---the idea is to replace the OM's abilities to meet needs with your own as she's suffering through the addiction. That is a very tall order---it requires you to swallow pride and really listen to your wife as she goes through stuff that you're not happy to see, but it is often a very effective method.

If you boot her for three weeks and eliminate contact with her---who's she going to want to go to? The OM. How much do you think she'll clear her head and be ready to come back to you? Especially with her whole heart and mind? It just doesn't happen very often.

One reason spending some time with Steve or Jenn can be very effective is that they will help the two of you negotiate this incredibly difficult and delicate time in reconciliation---and they will do so with an understanding that you BOTH need to be fully involved and 'in love' with each other. This is where you want to be. It won't be easy or fun at first---there's a hell of a lot of work involved. But if you commit, and you start to follow through (and your wife will at least begin the process), you'll have a real chance to make it a success.

And again---you're not to punish your spouse. She'll do enough of that herself. You can't win in a marriage by having your spouse suffer at your expense. You've been on the receiving side of that, and it's no fun. So don't participate in the punishment cycle.

Did I mention 888-639-1639??? And you don't have the luxury of time here---I can't take a year to convince you to call. You need to do it Monday morning. And make sure they know it's an emergancy. And tell them that you're a past client---you'll get a cheap rate... smile

Mike_C2 #2107226 08/09/08 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Emailed a note today pointing out the three week minimum withdrawal period and saying she shouldn't move back in until that had past and she was mentally ready to re-enter the marriage and family with all her heart and mind.

I gave all the links and excerpts. Told her she could see the kids, just not me and can't sleep here.

Harsh? Correct? The point is, this reconciliation is a one shot deal. Most guys would be in court already. I told her she better bring her A game.

Harsh? Yes. Correct? No. And although you're within your rights to tell her this is a one-shot deal, it's best to let this lay unspoken. If she slips (which she might), you don't want your pride to get in the way of further efforts. But I'm sure that she's pretty aware that you've had it. It wouldn't hurt to use MB speak to her to tell her that her account in your lovebank had just plunged lower than Bear Stern's credit line, and you're having a horrible time trying to figure out how to positively work through this.

K #2107231 08/09/08 04:21 PM
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K, can I email or PM you the complete letter I sent?

As far as working here or helping her through withdraw etc....NFW. I just found out on Tuesday, and last night I found out about it being in my house and my kids being all over the guy. I have Less Than Zero in the lovebank and would LB the hell out of her if she was walking around pining for AH.

I think I know the program pretty well, but I also know myself. She was here for two days and I blew up at her twice. And I carried all the weight last time when it was only a partial success.

If this is going to work, she has to come in making lovebank deposits from Jump Street. She knows the program and what my needs are from before. I will be glad to shoulder my load right away when I see some effort.

Really, think about it....most guys would split. I'm giving her a last grasp chance.




Mike_C2 #2107239 08/09/08 04:45 PM
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Hi Mike,

Got it!

Last edited by K; 08/09/08 04:54 PM.
K #2107610 08/10/08 06:41 PM
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I sent it to K, but for the readers, I got a sincere email today from my wife. I'll be interested to see what K says about it.

Basically acceded to all my demands, promised to be a better wife, is reading Harley now, etc.
========================================

A note on the above -- no remorse, no love either in the note.

But...she's not that sort of emotive person, (when not sending email to her lover) and she is in the fog.

Still, I had laid the remorse thing on pretty heavily, and nothing back.


Last edited by Mike_C2; 08/10/08 09:28 PM.
Mike_C2 #2107612 08/10/08 06:49 PM
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Please go slow Mike. I don't know if you realize how many hearts and prayers you are in.

God's Blessings.

Say


Me, BW-57
FWH 54
4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us
In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007
FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side.
One day at a time by God's grace.
saynomore #2107650 08/10/08 09:25 PM
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I told K, which I'm sure he is going to hate, that I was thinking of filing anyway later in the week, then letting her talk me out of it in a day or so.

I don't know if I can go through this process, or life, successfully feeling like a total cuckold. At least that would show a little fight.

Mike_C2 #2107695 08/11/08 12:11 AM
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ah....strike that insanity above.

In reality, the stuff with her kids in the future is worse than any punishment I could dream up. She lost her church, job and kids love in one week.

Mebbe I'll let her come home.

She's the only one that knows how to run the fing dishwasher, too :-)

Mike_C2 #2107704 08/11/08 12:32 AM
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Hi Mike:

I was trying 2 decide whether 2 post 2 you or not, after the flurry of TOS edits on your original thread.

I have 2 say that I am heartened by this change from a reactionary 2 a responsive approach 2 the problem.

Infidelity was no darn fun, particularly when fine folks like JL were the first 2 post 2 me after I'd discovered my W's then 11-yr long VLTA. One of the first things he said 2 me after I settled down somewhat was that, because my W's affair had lasted so long, it'll take her a long time 2 come out of the fog - maybe years.

Well, at the time, even though I'd gotten myself grounded and had decided 2 try 2 save my marriage, I couldn't imagine I'd still be willing 2 work on it if it was going 2 still be like that for years on end. But I did. Most of it wasn't fun, but nearly all of it was enlightening.

For the past few months, my W has been making big strides and showing true care for our marriage (and me!). It's been neat, in a way I don't remember the last 20 years being.

It's going 2 take your W a while, but probably not 6 years! I feel it in my bones.

-ol' 2long

Mike_C2 #2107740 08/11/08 07:30 AM
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Mike, "remorse" comes later.

Don't be trying to "eat the entire elephant" at one meal.

Time IS needed, in addition to an agreement to begin to "try" to recover your marriage.

"Remorse" will likely come at some point regardless of Recovery or Divorce. Only the consequences and the future will be different.



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You know what just hit me? She stated a few times that the reason she isn't with him is he wants to stay with his wife, and in a "perfect world" they'd be together.

So....when/if that reconciliation blows up, she's gone anyway?

Mike_C2 #2107808 08/11/08 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_C2
You know what just hit me? She stated a few times that the reason she isn't with him is he wants to stay with his wife, and in a "perfect world" they'd be together.

So....when/if that reconciliation blows up, she's gone anyway?

Mike, the short answer to your question is the obvious...yes she could be "gone anyway."

But that isn't the "question" about whether or not to attempt recovery, is it?

Mike, in MY "experience" with this, there really wasn't a "hypothetical" as you stated it. It was a REALITY.

You may not be familiar with my "story," so I'll just encapsulate a few "points" for you, for perspective.

My wife had already accepted a proposal of marriage from her OM, had already established a secret apartment to meet the State's requirement, had planned on leaving a "dear John" letter, etc. etc. etc..

When the 3 of us (the OM, my wife, and me) stood within 3-4 feet of each other at his place of business, he asked her "what do you want?" She answer, "I want you." I told her right then to come home, pack her things, and move out to her apartment.

She did.

Shortly thereafter, reality began to "set in" and it culminated in our choice to attempt to recover our marriage. It was a LONG road, with many times when it appeared that she was going to revert to "wanting him." We persevered through it (mainly I perservered and refused to "just give up" until there was NO remaining hope to be seen), and today we are happily married, she "detests" the OM and IS very remorseful for what happened.

But the CHOICE is still yours with respect to recovery or divorce.

God bless.

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(groan) hurts so bad today....

My main question today is do I stick to the banishment I proposed and she agreed to - August 31. That would be about the time Harley says major withdrawal from OM "should" end. I thought that was a good idea because even a stutter step here at the beginning could be fatal.

However, I read further that three weeks may not mean anything, your mileage may vary. And maybe there is a way to have her in the house but not scr3w up the start of the recovery, although, I must say, she better be on me like stink on a monkey when she walks in the door.

So I thought of telling her, look, only you can decide whether you are ready or not, could be today, could be three months, but know what is at stake. But then I think then she'd come home right away anyway and it would be like last time, the family resenting her showing no pain and remorse.

Tried to get Harley scheduled but he's tied up in a seminar for two days.

I'm being weak, I want to see her remorse, I want her back, I want my pain to stop, and I want to know where the fabric softener is kept. But I also think it is important that there be some penance, i.e.: kicked out for a month, rather than just skate back into her mommy.

Thoughts on my gut wrenching babble?




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Mike,


You want to see remorse??? I understand that feeling and I have to say I would want to see it as well. But let's do a little SAT test. smile

1. Would you rather your W love you, than show remorse?

2. Would you rather your W be faithful to you, than show remorse?

3. Would you rather your W support you emotionally, than show remorse?

4. 20 years from now would you rather your W love you fiercely, than show remorse?

I hope you see my point.

She has a lot of thinking to do. If you can keep from having outbursts (although I am not sure I could), then home is better. She needs quiet and she needs counseling, and she needs time to think. Actually so do you.

She is coming out of an affair with a man she THINKS she loves. She KNOWs she messed up big time and hurt many many people.
She also knows that you have put in effort on this marriage and that knowledge will come to the fore AFTER she gets out of the fog and her justifications begin to fall by the way side.

She needs time to find these things that she has surpressed to have the affair.

You also need time and quiet to think about yourself. You need time to make decisions about your future. You statements about how the in-laws will view you may or may not be correct. Does it really matter to you. MyRev, suggests that a real man, gives them 15 minutes to make up their minds and then it is off to the races. It worked for him. It may not work for you.

I think a real man plays to win. Win is defined by the man, his family, his friends, his clergy. You need to decide what a win is. Take the time to calm down and really talk to all of them. Not that they control your life, but they may have some good insights for you given that they know your W as well.

Mike I want you to win, but you have not defined that for me. I know that K has clearly said you have an opportunity to win your marriage back. You have an opportunity to finally have a good marriage with a W that is not withdrawn. You have to define win for us, and more importantly for yourself.

Finally, you constantly refer to your W's physical beauty. Clearly that is a need of yours but is it the major need. If she were in a terrible accident would you leave her? What is it you really need in a life companion? What is it that you need to help you go through life? I think it is time for some contemplation of your own. You have worked on this marriage consciously for a long time. But, have you really figured out what it is you NEED.

I love this quote and I am going to use it for a reason . You are an adult.
Quote
Children NEED what they want, adults want what they NEED.


I offer this to you, to remind you to decide what you really need, is it beauty? or is it other things and what is your ranking. I know this will change with time, but you cannot make a plan without a goal.

If divorce is your goal, no one can fault you. If you are not sure, then don't divorce.

Mike hang in there. You need to make the best decision you can. You need more data about yourself, and about your W's real intentions now.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Dang it I got a phone call in the middle of this. My point is "banishment" is not good, but under what conditions can both of you get on your emotional feet best. Oddly, this is something you should POJA. I know you want to feel you have control of this situation, and you do...you can leave it anytime. However, if you want to end up with as little baggage as possible, then make the decision based on the ability for the both of you to be "quiet" internally so that you can think. That is my thinking

Last edited by Just Learning; 08/11/08 01:26 PM.
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