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Dagger,

You're going to get very real and hardcore, raw responses on this site.

There's no sugar coating or romantic notions here about the reality of what you're facing.

She's 20. That is very immature under normal circumstances.

Telling us that she ran around in your first year of marriage, when she was 16, isn't surprising.

16 YO is a child. A 20 yo, is a child. You, my friend, aren't done developing your brain (early 20's for men).

You guys have made some monster decisions and have 2 children now.

She cheated on you early one. Has now cheated again.

She may have been "great" for 3 years, but your standard for "great" is suspect due to your lack of life experience.

Trust me, I had my head up my butt through my 20's. I see now how short sighted I was.

I could have saved myself a lot of pain by not being so short sighted.

That's where you are.

Imagine telling a 12 year old all you know now and you may understand.

Yet the 12 year old isn't going to grasp it. He just hasn't had the life experience.

I forsee a very painful future for you.

But there has to be a way to leave paternity in the hands of the OM if this child isn't yours. You will otherwise be stuck with child support for this child that (likely) isn't yours until they turn 18.

Believe me, it's hard enough when the children are yours and the system really gets you to pay out the nose to support your ex and her lifestyle.

I can't even imagine what I'd feel if the kids I was supporting weren't mine.

You have no easy choices in front of you. Life experience (and this goes against Marriage Building) tells me that your odds of divorce years from now are a near guarantee.

We're all about marital recovery on this site, but some situations look irreperable from the start.

You're in a situation that looks so broken that our life experience tells us you're doomed to divorce years from now if you don't do so soon.

So you can do it now, when you're still young enough to get your life together, protect yourself from paying for a child that isn't yours, and focus on being a dad.

And you should absolutely tell the other girlfriend.

You want to end this affair, and exposing to the gf is a huge step.

Best of luck no matter what you choose.


D-Day 28 Feb 06
Plan D (Not by choice) - 24 March 06

DD6
DS4(Twin1)
DS4(Twin2)

She moved away with the kids April 08. I contested it and got a lot more time with my kids. She's unhappy that I want to stay involved in their lives and don't settle for being an "every other weekend" dad.

Never going to happen.

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Dagger,

I've been around this site for a long time. There are many people who have been in your position. Pops is one, RunnerBoy is another going through it now. K is another man who was in your position over 10 years ago. There are some others that have been in your W's position Autumn Day is one.

All would be good to talk with. I don't think K posts here any more. The others might be around after the holidays.

I have read the posts to you and I think you have gotten good advice from all. Let me offer you my personal take on your situation.

First, listen to ManinMotion. Often what he has said is exactly is what happens. And the reason it happens is that WS doesn't learn or change their perspective on life. It is often also true that the BS often doesn't see reality until much later.

People have mentioned your age and their comments are right on. I will tell you with absolute certainty, you will NOT be the man at 30 that you are now. However, what is happening will age you quickly. Your W is very immature as well. These are not good things really, but they are what all of us went through in our lives. In my case I am probaby older than your parents.

Here is what I recommend you concentrate on.

1. Realize that you have 3 months for any decisions about abortion.

2. Nothing you decide NOW will make much difference, your W is still in the affair emotionally if not physically.

3. You will take at least a month and probably 2-3 months to come up with a good plan for moving forward, so take you time and learn as much as you can from this site and Dr. Harley's articles.

4. Take good care of your children and yourself. Often the BS lets their live slide and with children you cannot afford to do that.

5. RELAX, I know this sounds stupid given your situation but you need to be in a relaxed condition to properly fight this thing. You need to be able to pick up signals from your W, yourself, and your kids and you cannot do this when you are tight.

6. Realize that YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR w. No matter what you do, you cannot. You can only change yourself, which will influence her thinking but any changes she has to want and decide to make.

7. Given that she had the affair while you thought things were going OK, and she allowed herself to become pregnant as well, suggests that you need to tune up your radar. Do so.

8. You are in a marathon not a sprint, set a comfortable pace, learn all you can, and do more listening than talking. You will be amazed what you will hear and learn. We have heard most of it before. WS seem to read from a script. Come here if you need help interpreting what she is saying.

9.. If you can afford it consider good pro-marriage counseling, it will help you and your W even if you decide to not remain married to her. Please also note that as long as she is in contact with him, the affair will continue to some level or another and thus counseling won't help her much. it will help you.

10. Try to save the marriage. You won't regret it, even if in the end you decide to leave (note that in some states you cannot divorce while the W is pregnant seek legal advice on this NOW). If you try, and you learn, and you develop better communications skills through this huge trial, YOU will be a better man, a better father, and a better husband to your future W. Consider the work as an investment for your children and for your future.

There is soooo much more to say, but I think I have said enough.

hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

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Alright. Nothing is set in stone, as of yet, as like I mentioned she will not be back in town until Sunday, and then we will have more solid discussion behind all of this when we talk face to face.

My stand point right now is this. I am going to contact a family law lawyer, and get things going with one of them before I make an official decision, but right now I will take this child in as my own, and hopefully continue our family that we had started, however, like some of you have said and I believe that she is very immature right now which is leaving her in a limbo. The biggest thing I WILL stand my ground on is that she nor talk or see OM in ANY WAY what so ever. If she cannot do that, then this will be a done deal.

With all of this going on and being pregnant, it causes emotions and thinkings to go crazy, as I'm sure some of you females out there would know. Just from reading everyone's responses and concepts on the website itself, I've learned a whole great deal and to be quite honest I wish I would have known about this site years ago, as if that was the case I don't think either of us would be in this position from the jump.

I cannot afford a counselor on here, as of right now, but I do believe if everything pans out smoothly that we will attend Dr. Harley's March seminar in Minneapolis, MN so that she can see first hand what marriage is all about. Now, I know it's more of an actually doing it than hearing it from someone else, but I believe once she has a better understanding of this all, she will realize what life is and what she has to do. Like I said, I thought we were great for the last short 3 years, but I had no idea about marriage and the possibilities until I started here.

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Originally Posted by Dagger
With all of this going on and being pregnant, it causes emotions and thinkings to go crazy, as I'm sure some of you females out there would know....

Now, I know it's more of an actually doing it than hearing it from someone else, but I believe once she has a better understanding of this all, she will realize what life is and what she has to do.

A few thoughts for you:

Being pregnant doesn't give you license to be an idiot. Yes, the hormones can cause a little whackiness in the emotions, but they are anomolies and not the norm.

Second, your idea that if she "hears it from someone else" shows that you don't quite understand what you're being told. No one can influence, change, or say the things which will make her suddenly think differently.

You can't count on the fact that she will "realize" anything.

Your actions at this point have to be dictated by what is, not what you want things to be.

What "is" is that your WW is pregnant and likely pregnant with another man's child.

You're young and have to decide if you want to raise another man's child on top of staying with a woman who is a repeat cheater.

That is what "is".

3 years of "good" isn't long. And the odds are high she hasn't seen things as "good" for a while. Hence her cheating.

Then again, her age doesn't let her see what is good and what isn't. She might have fantasy images of what marriage is. The reality is very different.

So let go of any notion that some third party will help her realize anything. They won't.

The realizations come on their own and in their own time. All you can do is help expedite this by making the fantasy crumble and it starts with exposure.


D-Day 28 Feb 06
Plan D (Not by choice) - 24 March 06

DD6
DS4(Twin1)
DS4(Twin2)

She moved away with the kids April 08. I contested it and got a lot more time with my kids. She's unhappy that I want to stay involved in their lives and don't settle for being an "every other weekend" dad.

Never going to happen.

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Dagger,

You are VERY young and inexperienced ... I KNOW because I was basically where you find yourself right now 25 years ago and it didn't turn out well and neither will your situation.

LISTEN to what ManInMotion told you ... it is the TRUTH and a glimpse into what your future WILL be.

You are both very young, there has been multiple adulteries on both sides, and now your WW is pregnant with OM's child ... what you refer to as a M has absolutely ZERO chance of long term success ... it just doesn't work that way. A successful M is tough under good circumstances, and damn near impossible under these.

It took me 15 years to climb out of the emotional and financial hole I had dug for myself with my poor decisions in my early 20's. If you have any type of relationship at all with your father, seek out his WISDOM on this before you make any long term decisions. If I had done this one simple thing, instead on "THINKING" that I knew what I was doing, I would have saved myself a ton of grief.

You will find that conventional wisdom (from hard earned experience) here is that multiple A's or an OC are deal breakers for MOST BH's and you are looking at BOTH without the benefit of maturity and the wisdom it brings. PLEASE don't even consider attempting the impossible.

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Originally Posted by Dagger
I cant find a way to contact "pops" through personal message, but I have read his old stories about his situation, and others as well, and its helping me a great deal.

I know pops. I will holler to him on another site for you.

(((Dagger)))

Truthfully, does your ww really BELIEVE that OM is a GOOD father?

(where's the puking smiley?...ah... puke)

Men (and women) that traipse OPs in and out of children's lives CREATE other men and women who cheat on anyone and everyone.

sick

Seen it happen and it ain't purdy.

I wouldn't wish a parent like that on ANYONE.


I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?

O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.

My Story

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I put a call out to pops and Autumn Day on the pregnancy board. Unfortunately, our other site is down and no other way to contact pops. Hopefully he will check in. In the meantime, you are getting good advice to think things through but remember once you know the laws in your state you can relax and take your time deciding what you want to do. In the meantime, your WW needs to go NC with OM.


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
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Thank you all, once again!

I dont know her TRUE feeling about the OM as a father, but I can tell you from the blue print he has made in his life, he is a piece of sh*t. Not to mention, He has spent plenty of time in prison for drugs, but has put that behind him. Not saying that because he is ruining this, as is my W, but because of his track record.

Thank you all for trying to contact pops for me, I think he will help me out immensely!

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Originally Posted by Dagger
I am not going to tell my mother or father yet, because they are not real supportive, however, my sister is, which is why I kind of turned to her.

Dagger,

A sign of maturity is seeking input from different perspectives. You seem intent on ONLY considering advice from those that AGREE with you.

Are you even considering anything that pom, ManInMotion and I have posted to you ... we have all BTDT yanno!!!

PLEASE TALK TO YOUR FATHER!!!

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Dag,

Is there any way you guys could move away from the OM?

If you decide to stay with your ww, I don't think he should be in your lives AT ALL. The man is poison walking around in pants!

I wouldn't want him near my TURTLE, much less a child.



I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?

O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.

My Story

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I have seeked help from a few male adults who have been through mistrials of marriage. My father alone has been through 4 divorce's, but I don't have any intention on taking that route. Yes, I am considering what others are saying that I don't want to happen, but I am taking this all in to look at everything more clearly to protect myself.

Dealan- I have made it clear to her that if we were to continue on with eachother, he will not be in her life what so ever! That is one point I will stand my ground on. And yes, we may move away to another city or state to have a fresh start, but that is all still up in the air.

One of the main things is before all this happened, I was selfish and not a good person to her. I didn't cheat on her by any means, but emotionally and such. So that is where the OM came in, but that is no excuse to be make the choices like she has been in this. She afraid to be hurt again by me, which I can understand, but NOW I'm afraid of the same thing, so I have to protect myself to the full extent, as well.

I understand I'm young, and have many things to learn. I've seeked help from male's who have been in divorce and mistrials. I guess it all just takes time, but to me her decisions need to be made so I can either leave this, or continue on.

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Originally Posted by Dagger
I have seeked help from a few male adults who have been through mistrials of marriage. My father alone has been through 4 divorce's, but I don't have any intention on taking that route.

I kind of thought you had already made up your mind ... MARRIAGE AT ALL COSTS ... you KNOW what you're doing.

I did too (at your age) ... you see, I have the advantage in that I've now lived long enough to realize that I don't know shi!t about things that I've never personally experienced.

That's why when I first suspected by W of having an A, I went to work seeking knowledge from many sources ... one of those sources led me here ... and I learned from those who have travelled this path before me how to snoop to gleen the information I would need to find out the truth, and then how others reacted initially and further along in recovery. Obviously, none of us can act on every bit of advice that comes our way, but you evaluate the advice on whether or not it would work in your situation and with your personality.

I see where your father has been around the marital block a time or two ... so have I ... let me ask you a question about your father. Has your father learned from his relationship mistakes or does he keep making the same ones over and over again? BTW, you can learn a lot from BOTH scenarios.

One thing I've learned is that I'm more than capable of making new mistakes, but I try to learn from them and not make the same mistakes again. I tend to define people NOT by the mistakes they've made, but by how they react and move on from those mistakes.

Your father may or may not be a good resource, but my guess is the reason he is "not supportive" (as you put it) is because he sees through your WW's BULLSHI!T and sees her for what she truly is, NOT what you "wish" she was. Somewhere in his experiences, he has probably come across a woman who was just as selfish and self-absorbed as your WW and has learned through hard earned experience that not all M's are worth saving and not all W's are worth having.

In 10-20 years you will look back on this time as a true life changing point. Considering that you only get one shot at this life, I don't think it is wise to be disregarding the WISDOM that EXPERIENCE provides, because you can never get back the time that was WASTED from bad decisions ... "This message is brought to you by the VOICE OF EXPERIENCE."

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Thank You!

Me and my father aren't really close. As a child we were, but he has since been a truck driver around the U.S. so I dont get to see nor talk to him much. He doesn't know the full extent of the marriage through out the years because it's hard to stay in contact with him. Which is why Ive turned to other older males with experiences. I'm not sure that my father learned from his mistakes, as he's a pretty hard headed person and changing his own ways nearly never happen.

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I must caution you from someone that has decided on staying with their former cheater...if your wife decides on contact with this man and you knowingly stay...you are in for a heckuva rollercoaster ride.

Very few OPs have the child's best interest at heart.

It is hard a h-e-double-hockey sticks to see them STILL playing games with the children YEARS down the road.

Take the kind of person HE is into consideration if you cannot sway your wife into going NC with the dna donor.

It is a hard and long row to hoe.


I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?

O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.

My Story

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Yeah, and thank you. There's just alot of variables for myself to figure out and for her to come to truths with. We will be able to sit down Sunday night and talk about it all. Until then nothing is certain, but I have my worries. We're calling each other and talking through that and I'm trying to explain to her how is really is. One month of time is nothing compared to 5 years of being together. She was on the verge of working it out, then she found out she was pregnant, then she started to push me away more because of it, and now she's just lost with so many things to think about, but by no means am I letting my own guard down just to work this out. I have my own limits, as well. Just have to see what happens on Sunday! crazy

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Dagger,

As I see it, you have 3 choices, and only 3. First one that ALWAYS comes to mind is divorce. Of course, if you love your WW as you say you do, that's not in the running. Second is to stay in the M and raise this baby as if it were your own. Third is to stay in the M and have OM pay CS but then you also open up the door to constant contact due to visitation and such.

Here's how our sitch has turned out so far, I had OC almost 8 years ago, we never told xom as he was literally psycho, that I was even P, and so never have done DNA and DH had full decision making as to what we were going to do.

Our little Abbi will be 8 in March and is the apple of Daddy's eyes. Occasionally we have twinges of "what if", but are totally happy with our decision. It's taken work every day as will what ever your choice will be.

You are both SO young, no matter how much you say you've grown as adults, your WW's actions are proving otherwise. It doesn't just take raising a child to help you mature, you have to act like the adult as well. Your WW is being a totally selfish brat. She's not seeing what her actions are doing to not only you and your M but your sons too! She needs a 2 X 4 upside her head which could just be you telling OM's pregnant GF what's been going on. So what if it pisses off your WW, she will need to face it at some point. Also, notifying her family and your work what is happening will open those eyes too. If she really does want to work on your M, she will see that you were right to expose and change her ways.

Just as someone else recently said, DO NOT TELL HER OF YOUR INTENTIONS OF EXPOSURE!

Good Luck!

Tigger


Tigger
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h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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posted by pomdbd"""""""""'I had my head up my butt through my 20's. I see now how short sighted I was.""""""""

when one has their head in this position it is easy to be short sighted. it's really dark in there.

sorry i couldn't resist

dagger my man,,, you have recieved some pretty sound advice from a lot of very good people. bet it feels good to know you are not alone in this wacky situation.

i will 2nd the ideas of slow down and calm yourself so you can make sensible decisions, set up a consultation with the best family attorney you can find and outing the whole situation to om's pg gf.

the 1st thing i think you need to do is ask yourself one very important question. do you "love" your w? and what are the real reasons you want to save your marriage?

ok 2 questions

at 1st glance they may seem like easy answers. but "oh contrare mon frare". (ok so i spelled that whole thing wrong, so shoot me) from your own posts i see several reasons why you may want this marriage to succeed.

1st - you said you have never lived on your own. you may have an inner fear at your age of doing this.

after my w's A i had the same fear of being alone after all those years of M.

2nd - since you are so young and have been with your w virtually since you left school (and probably longer) you may just be having that feeling of dependency rather then true love.

3rd - although i know a lot has been thrown at you in the last couple of days you seem to be still in the totally confused state of mind. you have no idea what to do, then i am willing to raise this child as my own, then nc is the deal breaker, then you don't know what to do, to i think i will do that (expose to om gf)

once you can answer those 2 questions then you can start making a plan for recovery.

you can always end a marriage and protect yourself from legal financial obligations to the oc, so don't make any hasty choices right away that will be a thorn in your butt for years to come

i must admit i found it quite a chuckle when you said you were turning to your 4 time divorced father for advice. no disrespect meant. just that he surely has had a lot of experience in the marriage arena and may have seen many many different female personalities. but has he learned how to recognize the good ones?

again no disrespect meant.

i do think you have the right idea of waiting until you and your w can sit down face to face and discuss this. just make sure you get as many facts (legal) and as much knowledge (from this site) as you can before

another thing that may be useful is if you can get your w to post here.

i hope i can help in some way.

Last edited by pops; 01/02/09 06:31 PM.

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I agree - the idea of keeping the OM in the picture at all is a bad one. It might be different if he had no children, but this coming child is 3rd in line for any support. And his girlfriend with whom he is living has 2. In my mind, the child support would be so little it is not even worth any contact at all.

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POPS! Man I've been waiting for you, you have no idea lol.

OK... I didnt turn to my own father for advice. I actually turned to W father, who is a great man, and he usually sides with her on alot of things, but in this situation he has openly admitted to me several times that she is messing up bad. I havnt spoke to him about the OC just yet, he has his own issues to deal with, but I will very soon.

Yes, I honestly do believe I love her. We have gone through many mistrials, both equally stepped out on each other in the past. After coming to this site, I realized alot more about marriage in general, than I ever thought I could, and I've only been on here for 3 days, so I'm sure alot more good will come of it.

Yes, I do have some fear of living on my own, but I don't think I need her to survive. I want her here with me, to do with this with me, do to this family right, and accept this new addition. Not because I feel like I need her here to pay the bills or anything like that, I already pay all the bills to begin with.

I have contemplated divorce, several times. The one thing I will stand my ground on is that if she cannot end all contact with OM, then I will file for a divorce. I cannot have him in the picture in any way. Yes, fearing he will "charm" her once again and relive this nightmare, but also for the sake of this OC. Like someone said, he has poison walking around in his pants. He's a complete loser. I'm trying to get OM gf contact info so I can expose to her what is. Some of are saying its not my place that OM needs to tell gf, but the way I look at it is it wasn't his place to step in on my marriage when he knowingly knew who my wife was and that we were married. Honestly, I could careless what he feels or anything, as I have that right.

I have told my W about this site. She will be taking a look at it with me, and hopefully after that she will continue to do so, and talk to many of you for advice like I have. I firmly believe if she does that, she will see alot more good with our marriage than with anyone else, but its all in action of her, so we will see.

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tigger- I've made it perfectly clear to her that I would make this marriage work and raise this baby on my own, as if it were my own, but OM cannot be in the picture, period. She doesn't think its right to do that to him, to erase him out of his kids life, in some ways I understand that, but from my point of view... he has a pregnant girlfriend at home that he could careless about! What makes my W any different? My W does have her head up her butt in this one, and not sure if it will come out in time.

When I mention how this all is affecting our kids, she gets all p*ssed off because I'm trying to tell her what to do.

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