Why is that? It can and has been done. Plan A is harder when a WS leaves, or worse yet, when a BS leaves right after D-day, but it isn't an impossibility. It just has to be done in bits and pieces when ever you get the chance. Trust me when I say that while the affair is going on it is no piece of cake to meet a WS's ENs and avoid love busters even in the same house.

Shows complete lack of understanding what Plan B is. Plan B is a specific Plan, still focused on saving the marriage. It isn't just ignoring the WS. In order to actually DO Plan B requires establishing in writing the path home for the WS and letting her/him know what it will take for there to be any chance of reconciliation. It requires establishing a method of communication that does not entail directly speaking to the WS and making plans that can include the WS at some time in the future but are not dependent on what the WS eventually does.

Also, Plan B usually only does anything to hasten an end to an affair if a decent Plan A precedes it. Unless the BS has given the WS some reason to come back to the relationship, there isn't any reason to wait any longer and divorce is the most likely outcome.

Will the WS have another affair while in Plan A? Sometimes it happens that way, though not usually. When it does, it means not that Plan A was being a doormat but only that Plan A did not have the desired affect. At that point I would think everybody should go into Plan B. But again, Plan B needs to be planned out in advance so that it can be a help to the BS if nothing else.

A BH only becomes a doormat when Plan A becomes Plan appeasement and nothing is done to try to bring an end to the affair. If the WS jumps from AP1 to AP2 during the time set aside for Plan B it probably means that the marriage is pretty much done anyway since the end of the affair did not result in the WS seeking reconciliation. It can also mean that there was in fact some other reason the WS left other than just the affair. (food for thought for the BS, I'm sure)

Again, Plan A is only for cases where the affair continues and not for any other case. If either the BS or the WS leaves, that is not Plan B but only Plan Conflict Avoidance, which is NOT what Plan A or Plan B is all about.

Plan A is also not a time of working out issues surrounding recovery. That is for recovery, not Plan A. What makes Plan A hard is NOT working on dealing with trying to fix the marriage from the WS's side at all but merely fixing what the BS has under his/her control. That is after all what Plan A is supposed to be about. It gives the WS a reason to stay married to the BS and that is all it is supposed to do.

Your analogy of the buffet table sounds great, except that it does not describe what we're talking about. The decision to end a marriage and jump into a new relationship, or as your analogy suggests, sample all that might be available only becomes viable once the decision is made to end the marriage. Monc has decided that he wants his hamburger most of all and he is willing to wait and fight to get it. The fact that lobster might be there for the taking doesn't matter. Monc has to make the decision to give up on waiting for the burger. To do otherwise is nothing more than doing excactly what his WW is doing. It is going outside the marriage in order to get his ENs met and nothing more.

Once Monc decides to end his marriage, has divorced his wife and healed enough to enter into a new relationship, he can do it with clear conscience. Until that time, he is still married because he wants to be and while it might be easier to divorce her and look for something else, it is still up to him to decide when he is done waiting for his hamburger.

I understand the purpose of Plan B and what it requires. Plan B IS NOT a plan to save the marriage. It's to insulate the BS from the abuse of the WS, provide some peace to the BS, put the full burden of meeting the WS's emotional needs on the AP, and to conserve whatever remaining feelings the BS has for the WS OR (and this is the key part mentioned by SH) prepare the BS for divorce.

I'm not advising Monc to go out and get himself another woman. That will only put a bandaid on the gashing wound he has.

What I'm saying to him is that his life experience so far is one which makes him think his wife is the greatest thing ever. He loves her, obviously, and is grieving her loss.

Once he's done grieving, however, and is available again, he'll look up and see the rich variety available to him and how much he was settling for the chopped liver he's had all these years.

I understand it's a process and it takes time. I've been through it.

But what I've learned for myself after going throught he process is that NOT ONE SINGLE WOMAN is worth the effort and pain when there are no kids in the picture.

NONE.

Not when there are many other great ones to choose from that can provide a clean slate to start with.

And in a way, his very own wife can provide that provided that she changes as a woman into someone else. She has to become a different person in terms of her values, morals, and boundaries.

It's a transformation few WW'es ever make. Some that do do so before their husbands have called it quits and they can save their marriages, such as with Mortarman and Mr. W.

Yes, Monc wants to hang in there right now. I understand that desire. There's still hope in his heart that she will "wake up" and be remorseful.

My experience on these boards is that a WW with no kids has zero reason to interact with her BH. They go and sow their oats while the BH lives with his grief. On rare occasions they wake up, often years after hurting the BH and often after a D, and come back hoping for the BH to take them back.

Check out Lie2Me's thread to see this very thing in action. WW walked out nearly 6 years ago. He's hung in there.

But look at the cost. 6 years waiting for a WW to wake up. She's as messed up as ever, by his postings, and is manipulating him.

He still has residual feelings for her.

I didn't want a divorce. I wanted to save my marriage. Yet divorce came and was upon me and 3 years later I thank God I'm not married to an overgrown child that suffers from hysteriaonics and is a hypercondriac.

I've gone out and dated adult women with grown up ideas and who don't depend on anyone to support them. It's very, very refreshing and an experience that shows me that I ate chopped liver for years. That's something I would have only dealt with for my kids.

Monc doesn't have that. He's young and has his whole life ahead of him.

He can hang in there for a while and when to call it quits is his call. But my experience both on these boards and in life so far tells me that she's not worth it and he can do better.

That's something he'll have to realize on his own.

So we can go on and on about how he can Plan A her while she lives alone and keeps banging another man.

Frankly, I have more respect for him than to advise him to do that when he has absolutely no reason to tolerate that disrespect at all. ZERO.

He can tell me to shut up and not advise him anymore, but the last time I checked he seemed to value my inputs.

Monc, it's your call. You're getting boths sides of things here, but I'm not a "save your marriage at all costs" kind of man.

I've been divorced for 3 years and it sucked at first, but I'm content with my life now and have a great woman in my life. There IS life after divorce. And with no kids there's even more freedom to kick the ex to the curb, never deal with her again in any way, and wish her luck in her life while you carry on with yours.

One other thought which bears repeating since I've heard others share it:

Sometimes we want the wayward back simply to dump them on our terms. A part of me wanted that. It's often a subconscious thought and it's what led me to the thread I started about what happens after a WW returns.

There's a honeymoon period but the reality sinks in after a bit that the woman you wanted back so badly has desecrated your marriage by being with another man.

Is she chopped liver only because she's wayward?? I certainly do not think so as a FWW, I am anything but chopped liver.

Maybe he doesn't think she's chopped liver- and ultimately it's his decision to stay with her or not- chopped liver or not.

B_R,

Been on this site a long time. The statements about the rarity of recovery are not really well founded. Many folks have recovered and they leave. I still have contact with a few, but it has been over 10 years now since I first started reading here.

One can plan A with the spouse elsewhere and sometimes it works. As Marks said and even Harley says, plan A sometimes ends the affair, but most of the time it plants seeds for eventual recovery once the affair ends and most of them do.

Now whether someone wants to recover a marriage or not is clearly their choice and if there are no children involved this boils down to an easier decision because there are only two people involved, not many more.

What is not mentioned here often but is seen and has been seen by Mr. W, MyRev, and many others, is that affairs are traumatic and because they are, they are agents of changes. With patience and time one can determine if that change is going to allow the marriage to continue or end it. But, change happens and not all change is bad, it can even be useful.

People do change and often for the better when there are compelling reasons, they just need time to see the reasons. Doesn't mean every marriage makes it or should, it is just that time and patience coupled with the insights one finds on this sight often do lead to recovered marriages.

God Bless,

JL

Coach,

You earned your "F". You changed and learned from your mistake.

But you ended up ultimately divorced. That was your H's choice and one which came about because of the affair.

You have moved on with your life and he's moved on with his. Is your BH happy with his life now? Are you?

People grow and change. Monc's WW is unwilling to do either.

I personally think that most BHes want the WW back out of a desire to restore things, but the reality is that once the WW returns he's faced with the reality of the betrayal.

Can he forgive her years down the road? Sure.

But I see marital infidelity as an unforgiveable offense when no kids are in the picture. That's Monc's call to make, but my life experience at this point tells me that life is too short and there are too many women in the world to deal with this form of abuse.

And that is exactly what infidelity is. It's emotional abuse of the worst kind. If she smacked him around we'd tell him to bail and find someone who won't do that. But since it's infidelity we don't.

It's abuse nonetheless and he can do better and is young enough to not have to deal with the doubt he'll always have about her in the back of his mind.

She would need to dramatically change into someone she's not for them to have a chance.

She's unrepentant and is going to be lost until she "finds herself".

Finding herself is a process that will take years. You learned from your experience and feel bad for the pain you caused your ex and I commend you for earning that "F". If your BH was still single and you were still single then perhaps you could restore your marriage, but his ship has sailed and he's chosen the path to carry on with his life.

As a WW, you were once "chopped liver". As a FWW, you are filet mignon. But how long did it take you to wisen up about what you did? How long should your BH have waited for you to grow and mature?

Chalk me up in the category of men who will find infidelity unforgivable from here on out. Any future WW (God help me and hope that there isn't) will face a man who is much wiser than he was 3 years ago. I will crush any cheater in the courthouse and give no quarter and offer no forgiveness.

I may feel different years from now, but I see no reason why a young man with no kids should place his life on hold while his WW goes out and "finds herself" and gets scr3w3d by other men while he sits idly by and hopes she wakes up.

He deserves better.

All that said:

Monc, you still around?

I don't think thats what barron said at all. In fact those are your words, not his.

The point as I read it, was that it is the BS' choice to continue in the M after such a abomination or not. And rightfully so. If it goes that route, the WS should learn to live with the fact, that it is just another consequence of their horrible choice to enter into an A in the first place.

There is no insulation from our choices, be they good or bad. We simply have to live with the consequence, like it or not.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I think the point is all WS are not repentant in the beginning....it takes time to see if they will come around.....and yes the BS has to do some work on there own....to put those deposits in and see if the WW will come around....

I know in my time of insanity I said some harsh things to my xh....I told him I didn't regret what I did....but after he put for effort into us...and counseling and withdrawl.....I realized how bad I screwed up.

Little did I know BH started a revenge affair. That led to our divorce.

It's not an easy quick process. Maybe with counseling moncs wife would realize how bad she is damaging herself and her family.....it's different for different people.

Actually he wasn't the only one who decided not to recover- it was pretty mutual. I was still foggy although out of the affair and didn't know it.


I assume he's happy although I hear from stepmom sometimes different things that give me pause. I myself am extremely happy.






I have no desire to restore that marriage- as bad as I feel for the things that I did- and I do feel bad that ship sailed a long time ago for me as well.


At least two years. That doesn't mean that it will take that long for anyone else to wise up- I was just particularly stubborn. I never said he should have waited at all for me.


I agree but ultimately it's his decision to make.

I have a friend struggling in a similar situation yet I can see why she wants to stay with her H. He hasn't always been a wayward entitled [censored] and she still sees glimpses of what he was before- that is what keeps her hanging on. Perhaps that is what keeps Monc around too?

All that said:

Monc, you still around? [/quote]

Coach,

I understand where your friend is coming from.

The way I see it my wife died 3 years ago and I haven't seen her since. That's how it feels and has felt.

Things were once good with my wife and we were best friends.

But I've never seen that woman in 3 years. The one I've seen since is horrible to deal with and an entitled ex.

Like I told Lie2Me, in my ex's mind all would have been ok if I had simply done as she demanded, gone to live off in my own little place, given her a fat check each month, and seen the kids when it suited her.

She envisioned times when I'd come over, sit down with her new boyfriend, hold hands with them and sing Kumbaya while flower petals fell from the ceiling, the kids danced around us, and little bunnies pranced in the distance while rainbows filled the sky.

She envisioned divorce this way and will forever think that this is what would have happened and how I should have behaved.

She's entitled and that will never change.

Monc's wife is entitled. It has taken years and years for WWes to wake up and mature.

Life is too short and he deserves better than to sit around waiting.

Drowningman is a good example of a poor soul who forever waits for his WW to wakup. It's been years.

There's too much living to be done to be caught up.

You've moved on with your life and have a conscience over your mistakes. I've yet to hear a "I'm sorry for how I hurt you" going on 3 years now.

It's not going to come since she doesn't think she did anything wrong since "she had decided that the marriage was over" while I was deployed.

I may come off as salty and bitter, but I don't hold my ex's mistakes against women I date. Each new woman is a clean slate. If anything, the MB principles pay off in new relationships.

Lessons learned to carry with me into a future marriage. But if I follow MB to the best of my ability and still have a new WW? No mercy and no quarter given.

Monc needs to learn from this experience, pick up his self esteem so he understands he deserves loads better, and find a new woman that he can have a clean slate with.

Yea, I'm just trying not to moan and complain about my life right now. As most of what I want to say deserves to be in a blog somewhere talking about how pathetic my life is and that I should // my wrists or drive off the road and see what hitting a tree head on feels like. Although such an action is well outside my character.

It looks like my WW is scared now. She's afraid of being alone and bla, bla, bla. Though still thinks she married the wrong person.

It's sad that she can't see the best thing is me.

I'm going to my lawyer today to talk about filing...divorce for infidelity.

I think last night the rest of my hope dwindled away.

Talking to my mother, my wife is literally like my father. Selfish, unwilling to change, and a cheater. I think even if she were to come back she would be unable to admit wrong the way I will need her too.

Yes! Well said JL! Mr. W and I will NEVER EVER be grateful for the affair, but we ARE grateful for many of the lessons that we've learned in this process...That's kind of an odd feeling...

For me, the lesson that my mom had been trying for YEARS to teach me FINALLY sunk in...She never stopped repeating these words to me..."Times may change, but morals never do"...I get it now, and I'm very grateful...

Mrs. W

So she filed for divorce and is "mailing" me the papers and wants me to sign them. If I don't in ten days she'll serve me papers.

I'm counter filing with "adultery" attached.

I'm strongly contemplating a last ditch exposure to EVERYONE I can possibly touch.

She's still an alien being and utterly devoid of reason. I'm just not sure what to do right now.

Her reasons for divorcing me are freaking lame. I don't love you anymore. And that I moved out of the house taking my belongings without telling her. And claiming I'm stalking her, etc.

And she acts like since it was August 08 that the fact that the affair is still ongoing and that they aren't sleeping together that it's ok... That divorcing me makes absolutely reasonable sense.

Do it! NOW! Before she goes to everyone and convinces them this is all your fault and you're a nutcase and she had to do it to get away from you.

They need the truth! Even if you've told them before, let them know what she's doing now. Even people who said they don't want to hear from you. They need to hear what she's doing and WHY!

Don't sign a thing and have her serve you.

You've been advised to expose from the start. We've spent a great deal of time trying to help you. There's those that tell you to run away from this woman and count your blessings. There's those telling you what you need to do to save your marriage if you're going to try to do so.

So far you've ignored the advice given by both sides or have half a$$ed implemented some of it.

Get a hold of yourself, pick a path, and follow it.

You shouldn't be months into this and still be contemplating exposure when that is the very first step you need to take.

Now do it or sign the papers and be done with her and carry on with your life!

OR

If you want to make things difficult, don't sign anything and force her to file legal papers and have you served.

Then, don't answer your door for anything since you can't be served if you can't be found.

Any updates?

Waiting for Wednesday for her appointment to talk with Dr. Harley.

I'm anxious for that... I'm not holding my breath that it'll change things though.

Update.

My wife talked to Dr Harley at 7am. She called and left a voice message on my phone at 1pm. She feels I don't understand her reasons for divorcing me and wants to clarify them and talk openly without expectations of reconciliation of our marriage. She seemed tentatively honest…I don’t trust her “honesty” though because she is very histrionic at times (Shallow expression of emotions and rapidely changing through them). Besides that, she's having an afair of course. Especially lately. I can’t trust her emotional output at all(She’s a performer musically and theatrically.) And because she knows how she is acting often herself(unconsciously at the least), she doesn’t trust my emotional outputs either. The thing is, she KNOWS I don’t lie. I express exactly how I’m feeling. I have no emotional control. Thus why I’d be a poor performer, but for me it makes conversing with her difficult. She just “babbles” on and plays on my reactions. Although being concerned for what she views my actions as is probably something you guys would tell me to stop doing.

She said to call her when I have time to come and talk with her and was very lenient about “when” giving me the option of choosing. Although I’m certain now that it’s code for “immediately” as she is assuming I’ll read her mind and jump in right away.

The problem for me is that I have a hard time resisting or seeing through her "babble” in person. She could have gotten the divorce papers that allege Adultery or Dr Harley could have gotten through to her. And last time she wanted to talk she pulled a switch-a-roo on me.

Talking to her is hard for me because I can't get off the fence of being angry and being in love with her. Her words easily lead me along because I'm middle brained. I'm emotional and logical...the problem is I'm a male. Which means unlike women who can think emotionally and "business" oriented at the same time, I have a hard time sticking to the "business" or the "emotional" sides which men can only do one of at any given time. I move back and forth in conversation. Especially those that deeply matter to me. I often start in the business end and move to emotional. The issue is staying on track with the business end because once I’m emotional I can’t think straight any more and am easily swayed, led or left to inaction.

I need some way to remind myself over and over to follow a specific plan of action while talking to her. As the "I talk marriage and not divorce." does not stick in my head. I start with it and slip into an emotionally pliable state. And afterwards I realize it and hate myself.


So that’s where I’m at. I’ve not called her back yet.