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Of course it is absurd to equate SF with washing the dishes.
SF does not equate to any other EN.

But a lot of wives seem to treat it like washing the dishes, as a chore.

There is a big difference, too, between submitting to sexual intimacy when you are not in the mood, in order to satisfy (what you think is ) a selfish physical need of your husband, and with it being his effort to express his love for you. If it is the latter, and you just reject him, you are being quite callous. I'll bet this behavior is accompanied by rejecting a lot of other acts of affection, too, not just SF.

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TAC,

Yes, and I can go somewhere else to get SF, but I don't. We could run circles around this arguement and that is where I think Dr. H has failed to address SF properly.

Believe me, things are getting way better for me, but the past pain of refusals is still raw. She's used every excuse she could get her hands on, but has run out of them.

Are you saying you get LBed and have a fight, then have meaningful conversation? Weird. Is it possible he doesn't even want to talk, but is doing it because he knows that it will bring you back together? Is it possible he's rolling his eyes inside his head thinking, 'Just sit here and talk, and we can get back on track.'?

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As a 46-year-old woman struggling with weird hormone changes and lower libido, I'd just like to pipe in and say that the difference between it being a generous gift and prostitution is love and committment. Prostitutes and their clients don't love each other or commit to each other in an emotional way.

The second thing is that it's important for you to learn to be open and honest with your wife. This is the one person in the world who can give you this gift without it being wrong and unethical. SF is one of your ENs, one of your top ENs. Certainly it would help if she desired you, but when someone hands you a gift, you don't say "Sorry, take it back. You didn't present it to me the way I want you to." You should take it and thank her in an equitable way and be O&H later about it.

If you want to feel desired, you will need to talk it over with her. This could actually be a hormonal issue. Several physical ailments can compromise libido. Has she seen a doctor?

Also, you can ask her what she finds desirable in a man, in a physical sense. Keep in mind that you might not be able to fulfill this need and that you could be opening yourself up to be hurt. Do you want that, and can you handle that?

Keep in mind that if your wife's top EN is DS, and you fold clothes - would you be offended by no thank you for what you've done and requests to fold the clothes her way? You're going to have to find a way to show appreciation for the SF and then tell her that it would mean even more to you and be even more fulfilling to you if she desired you and is there anything that can be done by either of you to help that along.


Last edited by Soolee; 12/30/09 01:01 PM.

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ROFLMAO, Luri...I love your humor. You're a delight. And you nailed what I wanted to say to Themud...

Originally Posted by themud
loving,

Wise words, but I really get cynical at the kinesthetic, "get her in the mood" stuff. My wife doesn't have to motivate me or get me in the mood to go to the office daily or even to help her with DS. I really struggle with that feeling thing. I'm betting many women would want their Hs to "just" clean and cook or ask them on a date etc... without hinting or asking. It's not a stretch imo to have the W reciprocate or place the responsibility on herself to "get in the mood" every once in a while on a regular basis.

TM, I said "getting in the mood"...I didn't rehash what you've read and debated before about YOU getting her in the mood...

I meant a spouse can choose to have SF without feeling desire at the time of the choice...that the desire can come after.

And it's the attitude, TM, that just hits my button...your DJs, the way you justify and talk yourself into a palpable resentment, ongoing and stoked...there's no one answer.

There's your part and her part...and what Luri wrote...where you decide in your head, take the action, and the feelings follow...is key.

It is with Affection...you reach out and hold your spouse's hand in a difficult discussion--not because you FEEL like it...you may feel attacked, and DESIRE to be reaching out and ringing his neck (in my case, hers, in yours)...and you don't...you act affectionately because you are committed to The Marriage.

And the loving feelings follow...because you didn't sacrifice, give up anything to reach out and hold your partner's hand...and your feelings IMMEDIATELY change...not to control THEIR emotions...you change your own.

Same with SF...and you made a great point above...getting to where your spouse will act and know their feelings will follow...that they only begin without desire and that desire builds...may begin with compliance, that affirming touch...and build to the permission to attack you, with the same gusto, after reversing aversion, disentangling SF from resentment, previous beliefs and perceptions...and building freedom within intimacy...

One step at a time...and you know what I hear in your posts sometimes, TM...an expectation to be misunderstood...not heard...expectation of stereotype and to be generalized...discounted...dismissed even.

Because your half of the marriage is equally powerful, important and limited as hers. Same for SF. Your persistence in choosing to believe you are powerless, stuck, more limited than she is...making her the solution (another way to make her the problem) isn't MB, not real and not really helpful to your life.

Your wife didn't want to lose you after your 2-week EA...you had a lot of SF, intense...were jumped. There was more than once in a while...and then no more hysterical bonding.

She wasn't choosing to meet your ENs from love...she was going crazy from fear...for she truly loves you, and you've said, you guys are GREAT together except for the SF...she acts from love a lot, she's there for you...and she has a problem with SF...she struggles. Back and forth...seems like she uses it as a weapon and then a bane...which is both about power...not love. She's in her own power struggle...and doesn't stop loving you.

That's what I see...and you, saying you are staying only for the kids until they are old enough, sticking it out in misery...create half your misery. You are loved in abundance...and your focus on this lack, the added INTENSITY (not negating it's real), drains your own love bank, wipes out her many deposits...and you're doing that. She's not.

Don't add to your crud, Mud. (I'm not as funny as Luri.) Your pain is real...you feel rejected...doesn't mean you are being rejected. Reality is you are not getting what you want most, when you want it and in the way you want. Do your part and halve your own pain.

So you can thrive, anyway. And consider...what attracted you most to your wife will be your undoing...will be what sucks your focus in, even after you commit to perceiving more balance, the big picture...and let yourself be undone.

She's the one. She does not want you to be in misery, and she's not your cure. The marriage is...together, equally.

Sticking it out is a sucky goal. Working through, to keep on as you stay...much healthier...and you're worth that. For you, about you...your half. She didn't break apart your family, either...and she can at any moment in time.

So can you. And you do and she does, chip by tiny chip, until we see our part and stop. Then the whole marriage changes. Don't do the math (half and whole) because it's like turning a sphere inside out...makes my head hurt.

Judging your wife based on what you like/don't like...how you are...is absurd. She's not you. Had she been, you wouldn't have been attracted to her in the first place. You see parts of yourself in her...stop determining what and how she should be...identify the parts of you. Period. Wherever you find them. They are yours and solely your responsibility.

Sorry you didn't hear me agreeing with you before you posted...acts of love first, feelings follow. I'm sure you've told your wife your wishes...separately from your requirements...and know the difference.

LA

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themud, I haven't gone back to get your whole story, but it sounds like you have been run through the wringer. There are definitely women out there that will take a guy like you who bends over backwards to do everything he can for them, and then twist them around. It's sad, and it casts the rest of us in a bad light.

My H sounds a lot like you. He cooks and cleans, sews and does laundry, takes care of the kids and the house -- all many times better than I. He is chivalrous and attentive. Now that he had his "a-ha" moment and sees how many of his other behaviours were serious LB's for me (not to say I was perfect, but he wouldn't address any issues or work on them before) I couldn't ask for a better H. There are wonderful guys out there, and women who appreciate them. There are also bad apples. frown

Back when things were bad, though, we'd have a fight but then we'd end up talking and that's always how we would pull closer together. It's a high EN for both of us, and one of our major areas of compatibility. He wasn't at the time admitting any responsibility for his behaviour, he'd just get past his AO or DJ and act like nothing had happened, and once I'd start talking to him again, the conversation would be what would end up salving my wounds so I could get close to him again.

I agree wholeheartedly with what someone (on the previous screen, so I can't see who said it) said about the issue being honesty when there's a mismatch in drives and the unfairness of it. My H has a much higher drive than I do. Now that our relationship is on sounder footing and I don't resent him because of the LB's and I am working from a place of wanting to meet his EN's, we're much more O&H about what he wants & needs, what I want & need, and how we can get there. Yes, he has to put in more work to get me "warmed up" but then he gets what he needs, and I'm not only happy to meet his needs, I get enjoyment from it, which he also wants and needs. It's only through us "meeting each other where we are" that we're more able to figure out a solution that may not be 100% perfect for each of us, but it's far and away better for both of us than where we were. And, it's getting better and better every day, because as my new positive history with SF & H overwrites my years of bad history, SF gets more enjoyable for me, I anticipate it more, I even start initiating it, and the frequency starts going up.


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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
It all comes back to this. SF is different from all the other needs. It is different because of the powerful emotions many people associate with it. And it is different because it is the only need where we require complete fidelity.

That makes it unfair for the higher drive spouse. Period. It simply isn't fair. And it cannot be made fair. And a large part of the debate over SF would end of the lower drive spouse would acknowledge that simple fact.

They have unique power in the relationship. With that power comes a responsibility. Often the lower drive spouse does not want either. But it is inescapable once you impose monogamy on the relationship.

I think most higher drive spouses would be much more understanding and appreciative if the lower drive spouse would admit that the situation is not fair. And do their best to help remedy the imbalance. Rather than complaining that the mismatch isn't their fault and they don't want the responsibility for fixing it.

It isn't anybody's "fault". But the lower drive spouse is the one who has most of the power to resolve the problem. Which also isn't fair. And places an undue burden on the lower drive spouse. Complaining about that is no more productive than the higher drive spouse complaining how many hoops they have to jump through before sex occurs.

Assuming the lower drive spouse is being honest about what they need to be "in the mood", the higher drive spouse needs to jump through the hoops. And assuming the higher drive spouse is being honest about how much they need SF, the lower drive spouse needs to do what they can to minimize the number of hoops involved.

Ouch ouch ouch... Somehow this hurts. Too accurate (you know I'm the high libido spouse).


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LA,

Yes very accurate in your assesment, wow! That is why I rant and get on MB forum, there has been change in her and she is 46 as well. My resentment is waning (thank gawd), but is still very present. I feel for others now that get on here with the same problem and will defend their stance to the end. SF is different and when it is discounted as if it can be discounted for weeks, months, years than the problem IS SF, not JUST everything in the M or the W is using her M for FS and DS, I just don't see why any W would stay M to someone that is SO bad that you would reject H daily/weekly/monthly for years. It it makes absolutely no sense when the W is shocked years later when she'll claim she's been very satisfied in the M, but shocked now to learn that H has been miserable even though he wanted SF and W continued to refuse and now he's resentful for years of rejection.

You are very wise and I appreciate it!

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TM:

My wish for you is that you realize how much your resentment is internally generated, and you choose not to keep feeding that resentment. Your wife is now behaving closer to the way you always wished she would. Rejoice in that. Appreciate her for that. Admit that she has changed. And that you are also capable of changing and not wallowing in resentment.

The tone of your posts speaks as if your resentment is a thing apart from you. Like a glacier. And you are happy to see that with the coming of spring, some of the ice is melting. But there is also the issue of whether you are holding a blowtorch to the ice. Trying to melt it. Or whether you have set up a snowgun, blowing more ice crystals onto the pile.

As someone who struggles with your struggle. And who holds onto his resentment as tight as anyone. I realize how difficult it is to heed this advice. I am determined not to. Perhaps you will choose more wisely. As LA said, choosing to merely "stick it out" is a sucky choice. Especially since your wife's changes show that you certainly have better choices available to you.


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Just giving examples of the problems that ly in our M. Yes at times I'm holding a torch and sometimes the snow thrower. I am very happy things are getting better.

The problem is the cycle. I am darned if I'll let my heart go through it again. She needs to show change over ---- (I don't know how long) before I'll open my heart back up to the beating it took for too long. I wish I or someone else had an answer for when that will be. Believe me when I say I don't cherrish the resentment, that is why I came to MB, to find someone who is going through what I'm going through. It seems the closest I can find is surviving infidelity and the recovery. The ones who's S set them up and then cheated again. Yes my W went W, and I've gotten over that, but the giver in me gave up and I feel empowered by not letting her hurt me anymore knowing she can't now and if the change is a facade like it has been in the past, that she will not hurt me forever.

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Does she know this? That you are keeping the walls up to protect yourself? Knowingly and intentionally? She needs this information so she can understand why her loving behavior is not having an impact on your feelings (you are blocking out the feelings). And so she can decide whether she wants to continue to offer loving gestures when she knows they will be discounted.

I understand the desire to keep the walls up. I understand you do not trust her enough to let them down. As long as you are asking yourself when it is time to take them down, I think you are headed in the right direction.

Please note that the walls are not about her. They are about you. You do not trust yourself to be able to handle the pain. So you wall it out. Along with much of the pleasure.

I am here to tell you that you can handle it. You can handle the pain. You can let the walls down. And allow her to hurt you. And you will survive it even if she does.

But I am not the one who has to deal with the fear and the risk and the pain. So you must choose to take the walls down. Do it for yourself.

Or do it for me. Since I will never choose to do it for myself.


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Wow, I had no idea what I was going to start. Thank you all for an interesting discussion.

Guess I'm sort of a simple guy. When I got married (after 2.5 years of courting) my assumption was that my W found me attractive, intelligent and a host of other things that caused her to want to marry me. I certainly viewed her that way. In my mind she was the most wonderful woman in the world. I understood the need to be kind, generous and loving toward her. But I can tell you it never occurred to me that if I do those things, she still would not be sexually attracted to me. Never even crossed my mind. Why in the hell would you ever marry someone who you are not sexually attracted to?

I realize that on average, men are more into sex than women, but it is really hard to grasp that apparently some women (including my wife) stand at the alter thinking, "Gee, this guy will make good money, be a good father, protect the family and . . . but I really am not interested in intimacy with him." Ladies, please enlighten!

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Swan - yes, we do get sidetracked quite a bit around here. smile

Women get a lot of mixed messages and bad programming from our FOO and society in general when it comes to sex. Too many of us have also been abused. Each of us ends up with a different attitude toward sex as a result, and responds differently.

I have known women who just don't enjoy sex at all, don't think they ever will, but want a family and all the other things that go with a relationship and so they will "trade" SF for those things. Some of them do it willingly and lovingly, it's just not something they really get into, and some start resenting it over time and it becomes an issue. They're not lying, per se... they just don't know any other way to be.

I know a lot of women (myself included) who enjoy sex a great deal, but it's fragile. LB's can shut us down fast and hard, and it can be a devil of a time getting us back to a trusting place once that happens because of the past hurts that the current guy had nothing to do with. Not fair, but it is what it is.

I know VERY FEW women for whom sex is just sex. For most of us, it's so complicated, and so individually complicated, that there's just no way to say "do this, don't do that, and everything will be great". And to make it worse, we've been conditioned not to talk about it. Many of us have been conditioned to not even be in touch with ourselves to a point to even have a clue what we need or how we really feel about it. It's sad, and our partners pay a price as high as the price we pay - sometimes higher.


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I still believe if a husband is kind, loving, smart, and persistant, he can help his wife not only "like" sex...but "want" sex with him.

Women dont always WANT men like men WANT women. It is very different but not better or worse.

If a man understands this difference, he can do a "work around" and help both people get the sexual intimacy they need and want.

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Originally Posted by swanman2010
Wow, I had no idea what I was going to start. Thank you all for an interesting discussion.

Guess I'm sort of a simple guy. When I got married (after 2.5 years of courting) my assumption was that my W found me attractive, intelligent and a host of other things that caused her to want to marry me. I certainly viewed her that way. In my mind she was the most wonderful woman in the world. I understood the need to be kind, generous and loving toward her. But I can tell you it never occurred to me that if I do those things, she still would not be sexually attracted to me. Never even crossed my mind. Why in the hell would you ever marry someone who you are not sexually attracted to?

I realize that on average, men are more into sex than women, but it is really hard to grasp that apparently some women (including my wife) stand at the alter thinking, "Gee, this guy will make good money, be a good father, protect the family and . . . but I really am not interested in intimacy with him." Ladies, please enlighten!

You're leaving out a few things...

First, this could be a physical or chemical issue. Have either of you changed in appearance drastically since marrying? Do you both take care of yourselves physically? Physical health and self image has a lot to do with a woman's libido and self confidence.

Second, one of the first revelations I encountered here at MB is that love is conditional. Yep. Conditional. It's an action word - and if we don't show our love for our spouses the way they want to be loved, we're spinning our wheels, spitting into the wind, swimming up stream, or however else you want to describe it.

Third, your last paragraph is (now you gotta admit) a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Most men don't marry just for the sex. Some also want a family, their laundry washed, their meals made, their shopping done, etc. etc. etc.


Sooly

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Why would men continue to "whine" about lack of sex? When instead, they can do a study on womens sexual response and get to know thier wife's individiual sexual response. I had boyfriends who spent years studying a woman and what she needs in bed. Really. For fun! Because they were interested in what made women sexually tick!

AND IT ALL PAID OFF FOR THEM in A HAPPY SEXUALLY ACTIVE WIFE WHO LOST HER HANGUPS AND LEARNED TO LIKE SEX MORE AND MORE!!!

A man smart enough to do all this is most definitly...WANTED by his wife. Take it from me!!!! The wife!

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TAC,

Well put. What many refused H wonder is this about LB and the MP principles.

Let us say my W and I are really trying. And for all tense and purposes let's say there are 2 LB, LB A and B.

My wife LB A me. I respond with respect and love and we recover. We have SF that night.

I accidently LB B her. She responds with respect and love and revover, only this night she rejects me because I LB B her earlier in the day. WTF?

We fully recover from this, but the next week:

She accidently LB B me. I respond with respect and love and we have SF that night.

I accidently LB A her. She responds with respect and love, but she refuses SF that night. WTF?

This was a common occurance in our M. For some reason the EXACT LB would be done and it was SO much WORSE when I did it than when she did it. How does this make sense to men?

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Thanks Chick. One question for you. Do you think sometimes we humans fulfill stereotypes simply because we buy into the stereotype? For example, men are stereotyped as sex-crazed, testosterone driven creatures who can't keep their pants on either before or after marriage. A lot of people (including parents) buy into this, and use that as an excuse for promiscuity and/or infidelity. I refused to buy that stereotype. I was a virgin when I got married, and I have been faithful to my wife for all 18 years of our marriage. So, how does this apply to women?

Well, women are "supposed" to be complicated. Women are "supposed" to have all kinds of emotional hangups about sex. Women aren't "supposed" to enjoy it as easily as men. I'm really not sure if that is physiologically and psychologically true of women, or if a lot of women believe they are supposed to be that way and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Please understand that I'm aware of a woman's need for love, affection, tenderness, cleanliness and all of that. I am not a neanderthal. But does it really have to be complicated that a normal sex life is almost impossible? Kinda sad.

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Hogwash.

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Hey, Mr Mud, you are going from the PREMISE that a man and a woman look at sex the same way!

If you realize that how a man views sex is not at all like how a woman views sex, then you will start to understand the whole deal.

If you go from the WRONG or ERROR FILLED PREMISE, you will always be frustrated and think that "things dont add up".

You need to learn more about women and men. And each of thier sexual responses.

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Swanman...assumptions kill connection. Just thought I'd throw that in...

what you thought and reasoned before you experienced doesn't make you wrong...

made in you inexperienced.

Now you know...and it is perplexing and all these posters are giving you great advice...remember that a huge Love Buster (LB) (each LB robs 20 love deposits), and super common, is assumptions.

And we made our spouses up in our minds before we married...mostly. We were blown away (focused) on all the great stuff...and after we're married, true intimacy is seeing all of each other...even the ugly, confusing, irrational and crazy parts. A bundle, not one flipping over into another person...more the same, very real parts, shared.

Only beliefs you can change are your own...not assuming, see your wife as totally new each day might go a long way to having a thriving marriage for ya. Thanks for coming back to your thread.

smile

LA

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