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Bubbles, because when I stood at the alter I took a vow. And I intend to honor that vow. And it is very painful when a S knows that and therefore doesn't care how much damage she does. But my duty is to "love my wife as Christ loved the Church" no matter how much she hurts me.

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Originally Posted by themud
TAC,

Come on. I see your point, but let's look at sit coms and commercials and dramas. Society treats men like stupid apes (Geico?) that are only good for making fun of and are so stupid they don't know when they are made fun of. Women are protrayed as smart, fit, wise, ambitious, funny, loving...

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Sitcoms, commercials and dramas show lots of things that don't happen in real life... GLBT people being accepted for who they are and able to live in peace, cancer being cured, and women getting out of bed in the morning looking coiffed and airbrushed.

IRL, we all have issues, and we have to deal with them. I have a whole 'nother rant on what society does to men! Though you guys at least are the dominant sex and you can pee standing up, so you don't get *as much* sympathy from me. wink

Yes, there are women who don't have a sex drive at all - and IMNSFHO, they need to see a doctor - medical first to have all their hormone levels checked, and then a psych to figure out what their underlying issues are. These women get married because they want a husband and family, and some manage to do the SF thing ok because they love their H. Some figure they got the ring, they're done except for childbearing. The latter need to get straightened out on their part in the M, again IMNSFHO. It *does* happen, unfortunately.

But more often than those situations, are situations where the W just doesn't feel safe being that vulnerable with her H. (Of course then we're back to the needing a psych or IC in a lot of cases... )

And in even more frequent situations, the M is the root cause of the libido shut down. If you're into astrology at all, I'm a double Scorpio. (If you're not into astrology, this supposedly means I'm just shy of being a nympho.) I had a very high sex drive when my H and I started dating. My drive deteriorated with the state of our M. I've also had health issues, but it's really more the M than anything else. H, looking at it from his POV, would only see a W that was hot to trot until he put a ring on it, and then cut him off, because that's how the timing played out. But now that he can see the deterioration of the relationship in relation to the timeline, he sees how the marriage really wasn't the catalyst.

Sex is too complicated an issue to point to one situation and say "it's like this".


"When people show you who they are, believe them." -- Maya Angelou
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Bubbles, your posts are sometimes dangerous to me.

I start to think 'Okay, when I get back into shape, I hope that my husband has a renewed interest in sex... (although he wasn't interested when I was cute and fit). If not, then maybe he doesn't love me, and I should just leave him!'

But I can't do that to my kids. We can have a good partnership, but it's not especially fulfilling to me without sf and affection.

Bah.


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Well I see the point of you marriage partners with children or religious reasons to stay together. I do not agree with staying together if you accidently marry the wrong partner or marry a celebate partner.

Hey, if your spouse does not care enough for you, you SHOULD leave them! They do not really love you! Why raise kids with them. Why put up with them long term. Send them to "spouse training camp" in order to have them taught how to really care for someone they claim to...and should.... care about.

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It took ALL the love my husband and I had for each other to solve our sexual issues. It was not easy to do. These problems are solved now! It can be done with a lot of love.

I guess if a person does not know how to love another person, or something, then nothing can be solved.

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OP - Have you read anything I've said? I feel like you aren't reading my posts...


Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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I was oh so confident in the beginning of our M, and yes as the refusals continued my confidence in EVERYTHING dropped. If I was unable AT ALL to get the one thing in M that I was expecting the most, how could I possibly succeed in anything else. Trial after trial wore me down.

I have finally figured out that it was her and there is no going back! I think even the way I walk and interact with people shows that I'm gaining that confidence back, and one of the reasons OW picked up on.

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Soo, I have read all your posts. I think your best point has to do with a woman not having confidence in herself. And no amount of compliments from hubby can change that. My wife of 18 years still looks great. Looks 10 years younger than she is. Cute, nice body. But she will have none of it. I can tell her that 4,000 times and never say anything negative. Doesn't matter. Her mind is made up and my opinion is irrelevant.

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It is always best to start from the working hypothesis that fixing the marriage will fix the (lack of) sex. Every higher libido spouse should make their best effort, 100% fully committed to the process, to eliminate LBs and meet their spouse's ENs. LA's advice is excellent to uncover "hidden" LBs, often in the form of DJs disguised beneath assumptions, expectations, "shoulds", etc.

However, it is also true that in many cases, eliminating LBs and meeting ENs will not lead to sex. As TAC points out, many people have FOO or abuse issues that prevent them from connecting with their own sexuality. In many of those cases, absent IC and a willingness to address painful topics, no amount of good behavior on the high libido spouse's part will lead an unrecovered spouse to provide mutually enthusiastic sex.

Every HLS must decide for themselves when they have expended as much time and energy as they are willing to spend improving the marriage without reciprocation in the manner they desire. There is no quick and efficient way to determine in advance whether success is possible or how close or far you may be from achieving it.

I agree with the women who have posted that it does not appear that swanman has attempted the process yet. So he should not be pessimistic of his chances for success. I also agree with the women who think that maybe MUD's prior misbehavior or lack of self-confidence has eroded his wife's desire for him.

On the other hand, I agree with MUD that it is also possible that his wife has unresolved issues she refuses to address and that his making additional efforts to woo her may be pointless. No way to know until they invent the mind reading machine and we can see what is actually going on inside her head. Some here may feel that uncertainty behooves him to keep trying. I am too mixed up myself to form an opinion either way.


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Swan,

Ask for what you really want...for your wife to work on her insecurities because they are harming your marriage...keeping it from thriving.

Tell her you know she is able to do this, that you support her using all the resources available out there...because her LB is robbing your love bank and that's important to know.

Believing your opinion is irrelevant to her robs more from your love bank...so mind what you're doing, too. Your job is to be alert to its balance, to see what you can do, within your control, to protect it.

Be concerned for her physical health...ask her to include in her search for libido, to have her levels checked, ask what might help, because they can affect, too...offer to do counseling with the Harleys here on MB...tell her how deeply you're concerned...and then tell list how well she meets your other top ENs...even those you don't seem to have because she's met them so well for years (like Attractive Spouse).

Balance...not manipulation. Radical Honesty and a willingness to revisit this issue once a week, for updates and further discussion. The way she views herself is pertinent to the marriage...tell her it hurts you when she puts herself down because you cherish her.

Share more...stop thinking it's forever, always, never...focus on the here and now and ask her to come up with a plan of action for both of you to address this, from love.

Stop telling...begin owning, sharing, and check your own stuff...true intimacy is knowing and sharing your stuff...not to get HER to do anything...to do your part in your marriage.

And do not do that which you will resent. Speak of what you do, as you do it, if you're acting to hopefully get her to think/believe/perceive/feel something different. Share more.

You can do this. You're a committed, strong, loving and reliable man. Don't coach yourself into failure.

LA

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Who here has ever written a business plan? A marketing plan? An operational plan?

::looks around to see how many hands are raised::

Well my hand is up, so I'll answer my own question.

When you write a business plan, you start by stating your mission statement, goal or objective.

Everything else falls out of that.

Your strategies are your means of reaching your goal.

Your tactics are things you do to complete your strategies.


So the goal here is to have a mutually fulfilling, satisfying and romantic marriage, right? When I counseled w/ SH the first time, the question he asked me right out of the box was: what was my/our goal?


All of the MB principles are the strategies and tactics to achieve that goal. As others have said repeatedly here, you can't cherry pick the program. It all works together. So you can't single out SF and say it is unlike any other EN. For that matter, you can't really expect to only meet ENs and maybe not LB and expect your marriage to improve either. What about UA? And setting aside a set amount of time each week, as Harley suggests, to discuss relationship issues?

Honesty (PORH)

Agreement (POJA)

They all work together. Take one away and the others don't "work" as well.

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Dr. Harley believes that if you provide all ENs of your spouse, SF will take care of itself. A lot of the women here seem to agree with that. I don't. I have seen too many marriages where the wives were perfectly happy with large incomes, nice homes, vacations, clothes, family activities, dates... and their husbands got tired of waiting on the SF to return to their marriage.

I think you have to work on eliminating all your own LBs, and improving your attention to your spouse's ENs all the time. You have to move them all forward together.

I guess I don't see a healthy desire for SF as being something a man receives, but something he is trying to give. It is part of affection. Not only are a lot of women less interested in sex, they are less interested in affection, conversation and recreation.

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Originally Posted by OurHouse
All of the MB principles are the strategies and tactics to achieve that goal. As others have said repeatedly here, you can't cherry pick the program. It all works together. So you can't single out SF and say it is unlike any other EN. For that matter, you can't really expect to only meet ENs and maybe not LB and expect your marriage to improve either. What about UA? And setting aside a set amount of time each week, as Harley suggests, to discuss relationship issues?

Honesty (PORH)

Agreement (POJA)

They all work together. Take one away and the others don't "work" as well.

BINGO! Some mistake this for the "need meeting" program crazy and ignore everything else. That is like driving a car with ONE WHEEL and then wondering why the car won't move. This is a complete program that must be implemented in order to achieve the GOAL of Marriage Builders: romantic love. One can "meet needs" and avoid lovebusters but never come to fall in love because they don't practice radical honesty, POJA, or spend 15 hrs of undivided attention. As they tell us in AA, "half measures availed us nothing." It is the same with Marriage Builders. In my experience, the couples who have the happiest marriages have worked this program in its entirety; many of them going to the MB weekend, counseling with the Harleys or doing the online program.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement."

here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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That's interesting, but from my observations, people don't always start out here in a humbled or open state of mind, eager to learn and ready to hit the ground running with the program. Lots of times they're mad as hell and ready to walk or are very disillusioned and withdrawn and feeling trapped in their situations.

I think ideally they need to come here ready to do the work, but lots of times they come here seeking cyber pats on the head, validation, and approval to leave their situations. We've had people come here for months on end, very determined to hold onto their negative state of mind and argue their cases over and over and over again. Sometimes they finally get it; sometimes they don't.

The determining factors are going to vary - what's at stake, how old is the relationship, any children, finances, religion, committment, love, etc. And you'll always have those who have adapted to the quagmire they're in enough that when it gets down to the nitty gritty of actually changing for the better, it's just a little bit too uncomfortable, and they'd rather stop complaining (or not) than actually do the work.

I've been here for years, myself. I think at least 18 months more than my sign on shows, actually, as there was some sort of crash back then too. I've gotten a lot out of the program, though I've never gone to a weekend or done the online program. I've printed off the questionnaires and done a lot of reading and conversing. I've read the articles and the concepts and gleaned a new sense of appreciation. My eyes are now open to what others have experienced and are experiencing in their marriages. I have tools now. I know what to do. I know our marriage isn't a freakish thing from outer space. I know I'm not alone...that in an of itself has been a huge comfort to me.


Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted by Soolee
And you'll always have those who have adapted to the quagmire they're in enough that when it gets down to the nitty gritty of actually changing for the better, it's just a little bit too uncomfortable, and they'd rather stop complaining (or not) than actually do the work.

Happy New Year to you, too! smile


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lol - and why, pray tell, do you think I'm talking about you, Hold? (elbowing you fondly) In all sincerity, Hold, I do wish you a happy healthy (in all sense of the word) 2010.

(I honestly didn't have any one particular poster in mind when I wrote that in my post before. I just know that many of us have btdt. Some of us have been able to get past it, and some of us haven't. Those who have, I honestly think are happier or at least have more peace in their lives.)

Once we can get past the woah-is-me mentality and the need for validation, the real work can begin.

Last edited by Soolee; 12/31/09 10:26 AM.

Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted by Soolee
That's interesting, but from my observations, people don't always start out here in a humbled or open state of mind, eager to learn and ready to hit the ground running with the program. Lots of times they're mad as hell and ready to walk or are very disillusioned and withdrawn and feeling trapped in their situations.

I agree, and sadly many will come here and talk the problem to death rather than taking decisive action. People come here looking for help, after all. And that help is this program. They are sitting on a gold mine and they don't see it. Those are the ones I would like to encourage to actually USE the program. Using the program in its entirety will make an amazing difference. Talking about specific problems when there is no plan in place rarely avails anything, except a more angry poster.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I agree with the idea to implement the full MB program. And I like the idea of taking decisive action. Just realize that in many cases implementing the program and taking decisive action requires going to Plan B. Many of us are unwilling to go there. I think that is the hangup for many posters. When Plan A fails, not everyone is willing to take the next step. And even Dr. Harley will admit that Plan A, by itself, often fails.


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I thought Plan A and Plan B were designated options for affair situations? I guess I need to read up more on that; it's always been a bit of a gray area for me.


Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I agree with the idea to implement the full MB program. And I like the idea of taking decisive action. Just realize that in many cases implementing the program and taking decisive action requires going to Plan B. Many of us are unwilling to go there. I think that is the hangup for many posters. When Plan A fails, not everyone is willing to take the next step. And even Dr. Harley will admit that Plan A, by itself, often fails.

hold, when I refer to the Marriage Builders program, I mean the basic concepts. You are talking about a situation where one partner will not engage no matter what. I am talking about the standard, garden variety bad marriage we see around here. The rule is a) bad marriage and b) at least one reluctant spouse. Dr Harley has said that most couples that show up for the MB weekend come with one reluctant spouse.

What Dr Harley says about Plan As effectiveness is that only 15% of AFFAIRS end in Plan A. Plan A and Plan B are for affair situations normally.

I don't know your situation, but have you gone to a MB weekend? Or counseled with the Harleys?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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