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Soolee #2296906 12/31/09 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Soolee
I thought Plan A and Plan B were designated options for affair situations? I guess I need to read up more on that; it's always been a bit of a gray area for me.

Soolee, you are right, but Dr Harley wrote a newsletter about situations where there is no affair but one spouse refuses to meet the others needs. He recommends Plan B in those situations. Go read the newsletter, When to Call it Quits, part 1.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I am not a good example. I counselled with a Harley-trained coach for 2 years. After 6 years of MC with a variety of counsellors trained in other disciplines or systems. Failed miserably. Now I console myself with secondary payoffs.

As Soolee says, I am comfortably ensconced in my quagmire with no intention of taking uncomfortable action to improve myself, let alone my marriage. I am not getting my needs met, but as long as my wife isn't either, I am satisfied to maintain the status quo. Not a very optimistic or ambitious program. Nor one I would suggest to others. But I am done with trying to improve this marriage. And I am not interested in moving on to the next one until my kids leave home. Until then, I would rather talk the situation to death.

I agree with your repeated suggestions to implement the full program and to attend a MB weekend. I agree they are the best shot for most couples. I just disagree with your implications that in all cases it will result in a happy marriage for both spouses. I agree with Retread and TAC. No program has a 100% success rate. Not even MB.


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I 2nd that and agree with LA, and ML. I do come on here to whine and rant. I've counseled and tried the MB, but when one person is already happy and thinks you should be too because they are having their needs met, you're stuck.

Things are getting better in our M, but it's because it's obvious I'm not even attempting to meet my Ws EN and do not pretend to work on the M either. I think this has gotten her attention better than anything else. Could it backfire on me? Possibly, but when you're at this point, you really don't care now do you?

I really do believe in the MB principles and yes OH, I've done business plans before (try doing one to get an SBA, they'll scrutinize it to death) and you can't cherry pick. I would love to implement the whole enchilada, but in my M it's all onesided because she is already having her EN met. Why should she try? She thinks the reason I am not satisfied is because of me. Well I have to partially agree because yes I'm not getting my EN met.

I think what a lot of the men are trying to say is:

Wife- satisfied and getting EN met and happy in the M.

Husband- not getting the EN SF met and not happy or satisfied with M.

Wife- It's H problem, not mine.

Husband- It's our M problem.

Wife- No, it's not "I'm happy".

So if W is happy and EN are met for her why is there no EN. Women on this board say it's something else even deeper. The men on here are saying that lobbing it in as just another EN and that if M was really devoid of LB, and EN were really met SF would happen. We are saying in our M that is not the case. IMO it's like saying Plan A always works in A situation. No it does not, but some how some of you are saying that eliminating LB, 15 hours/wk, meeting their EN needs works all the time. We are saying it does not. We are saying we have worked onesided very hard to implement and be the leading example and there was ABSOLUTELY no reciprocation, only pure taking/receiving by S.

ML has said they are renters and eventually it will be time to quit. I agree. I'm trying to be responsible in raising my kids. My wife and I have a great relationship minus the SF, so I will not be "suffering" it out until they are gone. In between now and then she has a great length of time to heal our M. Like Holding said, I'm done as well. I'm exhausted from anticipating a break through that never came and it's completely up to her. I am resolved either way.

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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I agree with your repeated suggestions to implement the full program and to attend a MB weekend. I agree they are the best shot for most couples. I just disagree with your implications that in all cases it will result in a happy marriage for both spouses. I agree with Retread and TAC. No program has a 100% success rate. Not even MB.

Actually what he claims is that his program works in 90% of the cases. That is an amazing success rate. There is no such thing as a program that has a 100% success rate so that would be an unrealistic standard to place on any program - a standard perhaps devised to avoid doing anything about a bad situation.

I will state again that those that actually USE the program have happy marriages. There are many of us here. Unfortunately, others here have never used the program and some don't even OWN a MB book. Their marriages reflect that fact, too.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML,

I agree, however what do you do with the S that isn't just reluctant, they just will not do it or they want to cherry pick? My wife loved the UA and the POJA and used it to manipulate.

Why would he write a newsletter, When to call it quits?

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So raise your kids and then move on.

Don't warn your wives of this plan, and have a fun time wondering what could have happened had you sat your wives down and had an O&H talk warning them ahead of time.

Time for them to further their educations and increase their earning potentials if nothing else...

Yeah...they might have divorced you and faught you for sole custody if you'd warned them. Then again, maybe they would have done some inner reflecting and gotten on board. Guess you guys will never know...


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted by themud
ML,

I agree, however what do you do with the S that isn't just reluctant, they just will not do it or they want to cherry pick? My wife loved the UA and the POJA and used it to manipulate.

Why would he write a newsletter, When to call it quits?

Mud, when I refer to success rate, I am talking about couples who participate. The MB program cannot force someone to participate against their will. Your marriage is bad because your wife won't participate, not because there is anything wrong with MB.

Even so, I will point out that Dr Harley said that most couples who show up at his weekend seminar have at least one reluctant couple. In your case, your wife has absolutely no motivation to change. She knows you won't do anything about her behavior towards you.

It is like going on a diet. The diet won't work unless I use it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by themud
Why would he write a newsletter, When to call it quits?

Why don't you follow the advice in that newsletter? The outcome of that situation was a happy marriage; isn't that the best thing for your kids?

I was alot like your wife in my last marriage in that I REFUSED to meet my H's needs. He ended up having an affair and divorcing me over it, [which is where you are headed] but if he had separated from me it would have woken me up.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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"Stop yappin and make it happen."

Soolee, I love, love, love your sig line!!! hurray


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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grin Thanks.


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Soolee,

I did tell her in the fall of 2008 and that is when she sort of woke up, then in May of '09 we were still going through the cycle (although it was shorter in between), so I registered here and The Marriage Bed (christian my a$$). I needed to find a way to deal with my resentment if she is truly changing. We are still going through the cycle, but frequency is up in between.

ML,

Yes, I've let my EPs/boundaries down, but you guys will be happy to know that they are coming back up. I am feeling much better, but still leaving it up to her.

She knows I will be leaving if it doesn't change. Like I said, it may backfire on me, but at this point I still don't care. She came to me a few days ago and talked about how her mom/dad/ and brother act and recognized that in herself and appologized. She cannot hear it from someone else, me especially so I have to leave it up to her to find out what she does and how it damages us.

ML,

Didn't know your past, sorry for that.

Happy New Year!! Stay away from the ametuers night out!

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themud - I'm glad you warned her and sorry for my assumptions. As a woman who has been a sahm for many years, without a college degree, I can appreciate that you did that. Kudos.


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted by themud
She knows I will be leaving if it doesn't change. Like I said, it may backfire on me, but at this point I still don't care. She came to me a few days ago and talked about how her mom/dad/ and brother act and recognized that in herself and appologized. She cannot hear it from someone else, me especially so I have to leave it up to her to find out what she does and how it damages us.

Why won't you go to a MB weekend? Hope is not a plan, themud.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Soolee
Don't warn your wives of this plan, and have a fun time wondering what could have happened had you sat your wives down and had an O&H talk warning them ahead of time.

Wife has been warned several times. I see no need to repeat the warning. If she chooses to think that the warning has somehow "expired", her decision not to ask for clarification.

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Time for them to further their educations and increase their earning potentials if nothing else...

Wife was repeatedly told by me and by MCs to further education, become employed and prepare for time when kids will leave home. Her decision not to. Just last night when she complained about lacks of vacations, I told her to get a job and pay for it. I got a tirade about how she drives the kids to every activity and did I really want to have to do more of that. I said "yes, just as I will handle chauffeur duties in a few weeks when you are visiting your dad during his surgery". Sarcastic "yeah, like you could handle that all the time".

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Yeah...they might have divorced you and faught you for sole custody if you'd warned them.

Do you see this as an UNlikely outcome? 60-70% of divorces are filed by the wife. Why would an involved father want to risk those odds?

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Then again, maybe they would have done some inner reflecting and gotten on board. Guess you guys will never know...

Exactly. I will never know what it is like to drive my D home from swim practice to her mom's place and watch her go inside alone. I will never know what it is like to wonder who Mrs. Hold is bringing home while teenage daughter is living with her. There are many things I will never know of which I am happy to remain ignorant.

Is it possible that Mrs. Hold would change if I instituted Plan B? Yes. Likely? No one knows for sure, but I doubt it. Even Harley says Plan B "works" to reconnect the couple less than half the time.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I was alot like your wife in my last marriage in that I REFUSED to meet my H's needs. He ended up having an affair and divorcing me over it, [which is where you are headed] but if he had separated from me it would have woken me up.

You have no way of knowing that. Maybe it would have woken you up. Maybe you would have decided it proved he really was the undeserving jerk you thought he was (after all, you must have refused to meet his needs for a reason).

I can understand that after enduring the pain of his A, you wish he had warned you. However, absent the pain of the A, there is no way to know whether his saying "I am outta here" would have lead to the same internal reassessment on your part.

In the end, I am happy you found MB and have created a happy marriage. You are an inspriation for people here. And we need more cheerleaders encouraging posters to apply the entire MB system.


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Hold we've had this conversation before where you told me you would not have this conversation with your wife for the express reasons that you're afraid she'll walk away and take the kids with her. I do not remember ever reading or hearing that you've told your wife you're leaving in 6 years if the marriage doesn't change and she doesn't start fulfilling your ENs. I must be missing something - likely from years ago before I started following your posts.

I can see how staying for years after initially speaking of leaving, without mentioning it again now and then to reiterate your intentions, would quite likely put her in a relaxed state of mind regarding the condition of the marriage. Perhaps that's where you want her though. That way you can keep an eye on her, know right where her brain is, and feel safe in knowing your kids are with you. Understandable. At least this way you know what's going on.


Sooly

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Originally Posted by themud
ML,

I agree, however what do you do with the S that isn't just reluctant, they just will not do it or they want to cherry pick? My wife loved the UA and the POJA and used it to manipulate.

Why would he write a newsletter, When to call it quits?

I had a slightly different situation TM. A spouse who was also unhappy but refused to try MB. Even so, I think the tactic I used might work for either situation. Harley would say Plan B. I couldn't move out on my own (finances), so I filed D papers and moved to the couch. A line in the sand. Rescinding either necessiated he met my requirement.

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We had the conversations back in the pring of 2005 when we were getting ready to stop MCing with our MB-trained coach. Mrs. Hold said something like "he is going to leave me when the kids are grown, isn't he". The coach said something like "he didn't say that". I stopped her and said something like "no one can predict the future, but that is the most likely result. I am unhappy. My needs are not being met. For now I want to stay with my kids. After they are gone, the situation will be very different. My choice to stay may be different as well."

About 18 months later (around the time of S15's Bar Mitzvah) we scheduled a "status report" session with our former coach. I asked if there was anything Mrs. Hold was willing to change that she had not been willing to change in 2005. She said no. I said something like "then my remarks at the end of coaching still stand."

I asked her the same question about a year later (just over a year ago). She again said no.

As you suggest, I am not interested in having these conversations frequently or more explicitly. If she is living in reality, she knows I have checked out of our marriage. After 8 years of MC, all my complaints have been openly and honestly communicated. I have given zero indication that any of those issues are resolved. In fact, I have made a point of reiterating that they are not. For example, when I told her that I will no longer be initiating or requesting sex, I explained "that doesn't mean that I don't want sex, or don't miss sex, or don't resent you for not providing sex, it just means I am done asking and being rejected, and yes I will hold it against you if it doesn't happen." So I don't see how she can think our problems are resolved.

But many people choose to live in denial. Myself included. Still, I do not expect that I will regret not having been more explicit. I am not playing the lottery on which adult male my daughter lives with during her teenage years. I am doing what I can to make sure it is me and only me. That is worth paying whatever price in terms of my personal satisfaction.


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Okay Hold. I was basing what I said on an earlier post. I admit to not following your posts from the beginning. I'm really not sure what to say at this point. I'm sorry about your situation, and I hope the next 6 years of your life are not miserable. I hope you can find some joy while you wait this out, and I hope that you have the courage to move forward and do what's right for yourself when the time comes.


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
You have no way of knowing that. Maybe it would have woken you up. Maybe you would have decided it proved he really was the undeserving jerk you thought he was (after all, you must have refused to meet his needs for a reason).

Actually, I never thought he was a "undeserving jerk." But I know that a separation would have woken me up. [I am a better judge of this than you, hold] And even if it didn't, which I doubt, he would have been better off.

I really did want the marriage but felt that he would tolerate my abuse, no matter what. That belief fueled my abusive attitude. Therefore, I had no motivation to change. If I believed he was willing to dump me I would have taken heed and changed. In fact, getting dumped showed me that no one was going to take my crap unconditionally. Like Dr Harley has said over and over again, "unconditional love" that permits abuse leads to an ENTITLEMENT mentality.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
" But I�m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.

Bingo! This describes my situation exactly. And it describes the situation of many folks here who tolerate abuse and neglect year after year. My husband's tolerance of my neglect and abuse gave me completely unrealistic expectations of entitlement. And the more crap my H took, the more abusive I became and the more respect I lost for him.

Quote
In the end, I am happy you found MB and have created a happy marriage. You are an inspriation for people here. And we need more cheerleaders encouraging posters to apply the entire MB system.

Thanks hold. I have been richly blessed in my life by finding Marriage Builders. When you have a great marriage, it changes the entire quality of your life. For someone like me to have a great marriage is a true miracle. I want other people to have this too; that is why I am so passionate and committed to this forum. MB is completely different from any other program I have ever seen out there; it is a GOLD MINE. If people would only USE it. And sadly, many here don't even bother. To me, that is like going to AA meetings drunk and complaining about my poor lot in life but never using the program. I don't get that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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