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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
We had the conversations back in the pring of 2005 when we were getting ready to stop MCing with our MB-trained coach. Mrs. Hold said something like "he is going to leave me when the kids are grown, isn't he". The coach said something like "he didn't say that". I stopped her and said something like "no one can predict the future, but that is the most likely result. I am unhappy. My needs are not being met. For now I want to stay with my kids. After they are gone, the situation will be very different. My choice to stay may be different as well."

Hold, why not try the REAL DEAL? Steve Harley is the absolute best in the business, IMO. The most comprehensive path, of course, would be a MB weekend. And if your wife didn't get on board, Dr Harley and his marriage coaches, Kim or Sandy, would work with her one on one. I have seen these guys and Dr Harley get through to clients in a way that just amazed me. What attracted my H to this program was POJA and the end of lovebusters.

A MB trained coach is not the same as the real deal.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
About 18 months later (around the time of S15's Bar Mitzvah) we scheduled a "status report" session with our former coach. I asked if there was anything Mrs. Hold was willing to change that she had not been willing to change in 2005. She said no. I said something like "then my remarks at the end of coaching still stand."

Can I ask why she would change? Is there any motivation? In the absence of any motivation, I can't imagine she want to change. This is one thing that MB is good at, selling the concept of CHANGE to a reluctant spouse. They sold my husband [current 10 year marriage] and I have seen them sell numerous other reluctant spouses. Dr Harley sold my H at the MB weekend by teaching about POJA and lovebusters.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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[T/J alert, with apologies in advance]

Hold, RE: the chauffering convo - here's a thought (handle it gently - I don't have many of those :D).

Maybe approach Mrs. Hold with something like, "I was thinking about what you said. I want you to know I appreciate the time and effort you put forth hauling the kids around.

On the other hand, you apparently don't believe I am capable of handling the kids transportation needs. I apologize if I have created these doubts, or if I have overburdened you with the responsibility.

To prove I am in fact capable, I'll make you a deal: if you get a job and contribute to the household finances in a manner in which we both know you are capable, I, unless physically incapacitated or unavailable, will provide for the kids' transportation needs entirely. As long as you remain so employed, I will provide for those transportation needs until both children out of high school. You'll never have to worry about it again."

Obviously, that's not suitable specific wording, but I think it gets the point across.

She introduced the topic; perhaps it's time to call her bluff. C'mon; she left herself open for that one.

I dunno; whaddaya think?

[letting thread down off the jack]

Last edited by chewing.on.tin.foil; 12/31/09 10:21 PM.

You're just jealous because you can't hear the voices in my head!
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[jack is stuck under the thread]

Hold, that, of course, assumes that you can actually fulfill that promise, if you were to offer it.

[there, the jack is clear. I hate jacking up threads on soft ground]


You're just jealous because you can't hear the voices in my head!
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ML,

I truly think that if I were to ask for separation, my wife would simply shrug her shoulders and blame it on me.

The funny thing is that you mentioned entitlement. I am fighting that feeling because of the lack of ENs and want to have IB. The thoughts swing high to both sides of great hope to disappointmnet.

I think Soolee had mentioned Ws being unhappy, but that's what is so disturbing. My W says she is happy and acted/acts sidelined when I mention I am not happy and we haven't had SF in 4 weeks or not enought etc. I can only stare at here with bewilderment when she says she's shocked I'm not happy and she is. Duh! She's getting her EN met and tosses mine aside and is put out by my requests, then asks what is the minimum she can do!

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Mud here is another perspective. Lets say your wife was unselfish and a wonderful woman. She treated you very well in every way. She was fun to be around and had a great sense of humor. Instantly you relaxed around her. You looked forward to coming home to see her every day and sleeping with her every night.

Let us say all this were true. Then, i believe if there was a little shortage in the sex department on her part, you would not feel as bad as you do now about it.

Also, if there was a sex shortage, you two could joke about it and plan some good lovemaking or in other ways be flexible to solve the problem so both are happy.

What I am saying is for you to PRETEND THE SHORTAGE OF SEX IN YOUR MARRIAGE IS THE ONLY PROBLEM. EVERYTHING ELSE IS PERFECT.

If your wife was not an avoider or a game player or selfish, this sex issue:

1. Would be no big thing
2. Would be easily worked out so both were happy

I maintain it is a spouse's innate selfishness and wanting to use the other spouse for whatever, that causes the lack of sex issues to be glaringly, horningly..... horrible.

These spouses are terrible who are selfish and used to getting thier way and who use hostility to keep the other spouse off balance as a way to keep control. If you have to walk in your own home and wonder what mood the wife or husband is in..and worry about walking on the eggshells, that is no way to live sex or no sex. ''

Might as well be in a prison.

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I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think we all just fit into "good person" "bad person" opposite categories. For all my encouragement about this issue, my marriage isn't perfect in this area either, but it can't just be boiled down to "my H sucks." I don't think seeing it that way would help my M at all.

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No that is not what I am saying at all. Lur, your husband DOES NOT SUCK! And this is primarily why YOU LOVE HIM DESPITE THE SEX ISSUES AND YOU ARE WILLING TO GO THE EXTRA MILE TO WORK THEM OUT.

People who have numerous problems with the spouse besides sex cannot work the sexual issues out. They cannot work anything out.

YOU CAN! Luckily.

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If you have a spouse so selfish and controlling and difficult and you are not getting any sex from them, there are a lot of problems here, not just the sex.

If you have a spouse who is loving, caring, unselfish, and great in many ways but not perfect, a little "lack of sex" can be overcome or worked out. I did it in my marriage. Because my husband is pretty wonderful, I was able to spend three years working on my lack of sex issue. It worked out and we both compromised.

Had he been very selfish or difficult in other ways, the sex issues would be impossible to work out.

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Just feeling really horrible today. I can't understand why she would want to be with me this long if I was so horrible as not not want SF. She says it's great when we have it, but it must not be that great.

Yeah, there are things. She can't stick to her obligations or do what she says and I probably LB her when I try to make her accountable to them... That's such an on going thing for her I don't think will ever change because she feels it's her right as a person or woman to change her mind on a dime with out saying boo to me or anyone else. It just kills me, so don't know if thes is just AH or a LB of hers. I probably don't take enough initiation with the kids, but I fear criticism when I use to. I love her and feel so alone at the same time. I think she has a lack of respect for the men she is close to, but it seems like she has a ton of respect for other men, like at kids sports and school. I wish she would respect me like that.

Sorry for letting this out. No, I have no one else who is male or female to talk to or don't feel comfortable talking to. Just down today.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Last edited by themud; 01/02/10 01:37 PM.
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Just feeling really horrible today. I can't understand why she would want to be with me this long if I was so horrible as not not want SF. She says it's great when we have it, but it must not be that great.

As my husband used to tell me: "It is not you, it is me" and "I like sex when we have it">

Mud, it is NOT YOU. But you are close to finding the key to this.

Listen to her when she says, "I likes sex when we have it".

This is the key and the answer. Many women are this way exactly. It is hard for most women to GET INTO SEX. For so many reasons.

But, if you gently lead her into sex, she will love it! You have to do this and take the inititive. Do not ask, just start touching and kissing like a romance novel. Bring her some food or drink to set the mood. Remove her clothes like an "actor in a movie" does. If she moves away, dont give up yet, start gently massaging her to help her relax. Soon she will be turned on. Then she will want sex with you.

MUD, Dont give up yet!!! On this. I tell you you can lead these problems into being solutions. Talking helps but not always. Helping her relax will really help. Being sexy and confident (even though your confidence has been dashed) will really help.

You can change this!

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I hope I didn't sound whiny and argumentative Bubbles. Just ignore me today. I cooked my H a hamburger patty without realizing we had no bread, and then I started crying about it - hormonal women!!

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Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Mud here is another perspective. Lets say your wife was unselfish and a wonderful woman. She treated you very well in every way. She was fun to be around and had a great sense of humor. Instantly you relaxed around her. You looked forward to coming home to see her every day and sleeping with her every night.

Let us say all this were true. Then, i believe if there was a little shortage in the sex department on her part, you would not feel as bad as you do now about it.

Also, if there was a sex shortage, you two could joke about it and plan some good lovemaking or in other ways be flexible to solve the problem so both are happy.

What I am saying is for you to PRETEND THE SHORTAGE OF SEX IN YOUR MARRIAGE IS THE ONLY PROBLEM. EVERYTHING ELSE IS PERFECT.

If your wife was not an avoider or a game player or selfish, this sex issue:

1. Would be no big thing
2. Would be easily worked out so both were happy

I maintain it is a spouse's innate selfishness and wanting to use the other spouse for whatever, that causes the lack of sex issues to be glaringly, horningly..... horrible.

These spouses are terrible who are selfish and used to getting thier way and who use hostility to keep the other spouse off balance as a way to keep control. If you have to walk in your own home and wonder what mood the wife or husband is in..and worry about walking on the eggshells, that is no way to live sex or no sex. ''

Might as well be in a prison.

I think it was ML who posted a quote from Dr. Harley saying that he rarely has to *fix* sexual issues for couples. By helping them fix their marriages, so that they have ALL the tools they need for communication, honesty, happiness, etc., the sexual problems usually go away.

I always thought that sex issues were usually a symptom of a problem....not a problem in and of itself.

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Mud, my desire for SF can really swing like a pendulum. LB kill it faster than anything (wish I had known that years ago...). But I am also my own worst enemy. I can't really explain it but I can get myself worked up and agitated about a lot of really minor things and then it plays out in my pushing him away. Perhaps, if we are able to fully embrace the MB program and work the entire program so that we have great communication and I'm not hesitant to tell him how I'm feeling, then I wouldn't play these games with myself.

Since H's conversation with Steve, he has really worked to cut out the AOs. What a difference just that makes for me! He's also stepped up on DS around the house.

There are still the major issues such as the job/FS, which is right now my #1 EN, and the drinking issue which remains to be worked out, but I was doing this dance with myself expecting that he FULLY step up to the plate before I could give in return. Then I brought myself up short and said "what am I doing? It's obvious SF and Affection are two of his very top needs....why don't I do my best to try to fulfill those?

We will still have obstacles to overcome. I don't think our sex drives are THAT far apart, but he is most definitely the higher need spouse. He'd be happy with daily/even twice daily sometimes...and I'm happy with 3-4x/week. These are averages. And he really takes my "not tonight honey" so personally, though I see a change in him there, too since he's spoken with SH.

I don't know what to tell you Mud. I know I'm not your wife. I don't know if you really have worked the program. The word 'entitlement' does not apply for either of you.

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Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Lets say your wife was unselfish and a wonderful woman. She treated you very well in every way. She was fun to be around and had a great sense of humor. Instantly you relaxed around her. You looked forward to coming home to see her every day and sleeping with her every night.

Let us say all this were true. Then, i believe if there was a little shortage in the sex department on her part, you would not feel as bad as you do now about it.

You might not feel as bad, but it still would be lousy.
Sex is the currency of marriage. Having a marriage without sex is like having a business without cash flow. The store might look neat, the merchandise shiny, the clerks polite and attentive, but the business is headed for a shut down. Without regular cash flow, it is not a business, but just a hobby.

Women might be able to feel loved just from having financial security, engaging conversation, a good father to their children, and help around the house, without affection or a sexual relationship - but men don't feel loved when their wives hardly ever want to make love.

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Retread, the store analogy makes a lot of sense. And I have to wonder, at what point - after a time of no cash flow - does it become almost impossible to motivate onesself to keep the store shiny. I mean, if there is no "business" happening in the business....what's the point of polishing the shelves? I don't mean to sound like a downer, but the premise usually seems to be, if this, then sex. Is there anything wrong with - every once in awhile - thinking if sex, then this? What I mean is, instead of thinking, if you meet this and this and this, I'll feel like having sex, what if someone thinks, if you could just give yourself to me for half an hour, I would feel more like doin this and this and this? I'm just thinkng out loud.

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Luri, I think that like anything else in marriage, it's a two way street. Harley says that both partners need to be dedicated to the care and feeding of the marriage--and remain focused on what makes their spouse happy and fulfilled. That means meeting ENs and not LBing. So the lower drive spouse IMO *should* try his/her best to meet the higher drive spouses need. Conversely the higher drive spouse needs to try his/her best to meet the top needs of the other spouse.

In theory and on paper, it seems that if this is being done on a consistent basis, with complaints aired honestly (PORH) and decisions reached jointly (POJA), then there shouldn't be long periods of unhappiness. I'm sure even the Harleys have arguments but they resolve them before they start to fester.

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For females, having sex is usually very enjoyable when you are in love. My H has a high sex drive - higher than mine - but I am in love with him so I enjoy meeting that need. My favorite thing to do is to FLASH him. flirt

In my last marriage, I was not in love with my H and I RESENTED his constant whining about wanting sex. It made me MORE AVERSE. I resented each and every second of SF with him and it got to where the aversion expanded to just SEEING HIM. I felt an aversion to him in every way.

Both of these situations demonstrate why this program can't be cherry picked. If one uses the ENTIRE PROGRAM, the result is that both are in love. When one is IN LOVE, they enjoy having sex.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement."

here

themud, did you answer my question about going to the MB weekend? There is one coming up the end of January.

Ourhouse, Dr Harley has mentioned that he and Joyce never have arguments. NEVER. But they do disagree on things every day. They use the POJA and the negotiation tactics he has outlined here. POJA was very, very hard for my H and I at first, but now it comes effortlessly. Now, we have standing agreements on most contentious issues so it doesn't come up anymore. For example, we rarely disagree about restaurants anymore [formerly a huge battle ground] because we have a short list that we both like.

We also have a standard in place that we NEVER EVER go to a restaurant the other dislikes. If one dislikes it, it is OFF the list. It is never brought up again. Chinese is off our list because it ruins my diet, and Mexican is off the list because he hates spicy food.

Ourhouse, I am so happy that you are coaching with Steve Harley and digging into this program the way you are. I wish you the very best in your marriage! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{OURHOUSE}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by OurHouse
Since H's conversation with Steve, he has really worked to cut out the AOs. What a difference just that makes for me! He's also stepped up on DS around the house.

OH, our experience was alot like this in that one lovebuster led to another. And when they were eliminated, it also had a similar domino effect. For example, I would trigger his angry outbursts with my independent behavior. His AO would lead to disrespectful judgments and then I couldn't stand him for a week, much less have SF with him or meet his need for RC. When I eliminated my IB, he stopped his AO's, which stopped my DJ's.

When the lovebusters stopped I felt much more inclined to meet his SF and RC need, and he felt much more inclined to meet my need for affection, admiration and DS.

They are all so intertwined that I understand perfectly why Dr Harley says that when you fix the marriage, the SF problem usually fixes itself.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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You are so right on ML. My H used to complain that I never touched him during the day. He used to ask...why not just a gentle touch as you're walking by...maybe a kiss on the head or the cheek..etc. Even though he has a very high need for SF, I think his need for Affection is almost as high.

But with all the LBs going on, I couldn't bring myself to do what he was asking for. And of course, he feels angry and resentful, etc, etc....and we are on the same merry go-round that you and your husband found yourselves on.

I am still withholding judgement and still don't know what our final outcome will be....because I *am* willing now to walk away from this marriage if I can't be happy. But for the first time, I do see a light at the end of the tunnel.

ETA: I should also add for those reading here...just ONE hour on the phone with Steve enlightened H more than months and months of traditional marriage counseling. And the same goes for my experience with Steve as well.

ETA #2: I would love to attend a MB weekend. Right now it's not in the cards for us financially---we can barely afford the phone counseling. But it's on my "list"!

Last edited by OurHouse; 01/03/10 12:46 PM.
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