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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Retread, the store analogy makes a lot of sense. And I have to wonder, at what point - after a time of no cash flow - does it become almost impossible to motivate onesself to keep the store shiny. I mean, if there is no "business" happening in the business....what's the point of polishing the shelves?

This is exactly where I think it will end up. The spouse who is being denied affection is not likely to just walk out one day, to the total surprise of the partner who was happily having all their own ENs met.

It is most likely that he (since I am talking about men here) will begin to feel used. One way to stop being used is to stop doing things for The User, even if you feel like doing them. Next, you stop doing the things she likes. If she likes a nice house, you stop taking care of it, etc. Then you can bet things get into a cycle of unmet ENs and LBs.

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It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? I like your analogy, Retread - the whole currency thing.

Just wanted you to know that I've become far more acutely aware of my sexuality (or lack thereof) since reading what some of the men here are going through, and if nothing else it has given me some food for thought in terms of how I take care of myself, how I dress, how I treat myself, and how I feel about myself, because I firmly believe that poor self image has a lot to do with this issue, and I realize that the domino effect here can be devastating.

Since becoming a member here, I've learned just how tenuous marriage is and how very dependent its strength is on the effort we put into it. I am hoping this year is a better year than last for all of us in this department.



Sooly

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I second that Soolee. I can more clearly see how my behavior applies to the domino effect. And how quickly a love bank can be drained---and how much more slowly it builds back up again.

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yeah...it's a lot easier to fall into the hole than it is to climb back out.


Sooly

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Here's a perfect example. And it does affect sexual desire, so it's on topic for this thread.

H talked to SH shortly before Christmas. Now there are a LOT of issues in my marriage, as you all know...and they're not all going to get ironed out at once. Didn't take us two weeks to get to this place; it's going to take longer than two weeks to get out of it.

But since that convo with SH, he's bought into the essentials of the program and I think he sees (perhaps even better than I at this point), how HIS behavior affects everyone around him including his wife, and how it is HIS responsibility to preserve the care and feeding of my love for him.

So in that regard, he has really worked to cut out the AOs and the DS around the house has increased tenfold.

At first, I remained in my little shell, not trusting and not wanting to really give much back. But we both need to work this program if it's going to work and he is obviously trying very hard in two areas that he felt made a difference to me (we haven't shared LB and EN questionnaires yet, per SH). So I needed to step up to the plate and start addressing his ENs.

Slowly, over the course of the two weeks, we went from being hostile, to civil, to pleasant, to actually interacting with each other again (conversation) and back towards intimate relating to each other I'm not speaking of SF here...just the intimacy of husband/wife relationship in general...sharing thoughts, hopes and dreams..something we had not done in a long time.

And yesterday, I realized that my love bank actually had a positive balance in it and when I thought about H, I actually got a nice feeling inside, instead of a pit in the bottom of my stomach.

And last night at dinner, there was a tense exchange with daughter (he/she tussled over an issue) and with S15 (he/I tussled over an issue) and a general lack of good communication between H and I over same so that when he said something to me in a particular tone of voice, instead of asking him for clarification, I *assumed* (hate that word) that he was angry.

I withdrew and was sullen the rest of the night and woke up angry even, this morning. All the deposits in the lovebank were GONE!

Then I decided to talk about it...just sticking to how I was feeling...NOT talking about his actions, assuming his feelings, etc.,

And we cleared the air. And I realized how much my thoughts (stinkin thinkin, actually) influenced my actions last night.

I'm still not happy at the way he treated our daughter..I thought he was harsh. But I was able to communicate that in a safe and non-accusatory manner and I suggested if we worked as a team...that we'd be more effective. Daughter pushes his buttons and son pushes mine. If we unite, then perhaps we'll both be less likely to fly off the handle with the kids.

And the lovebank is back in the black this AM. Not quite as high as yesterday's balance before the massive withdrawal though. It's amazing how quickly those deposits can vanish...

Kinda like my checking account!


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It's amazing how quickly those deposits can vanish...

Kinda like my checking account!


LOL - I can certainly commiserate with you on that issue.

I also agree with just how touchy that love bank balance can be and how easily it can shift from one end to the other. I would think that's pretty normal for a marriage in recovery. Trust has some say in that, I think. I like to think that with more love bank deposits versus withdrawals (history proving itself), that reflex to expect the worst will not be so automatic or quick.

I'm so happy for you, OH, that things are looking up, btw.


Sooly

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I think how rapidly an LB withdraws from the bank account depends on how we see the LB, and that depends of the context of our relationships.

If someone at work makes fun of you for your hair being messy, but you know they are your friend, you laugh along with them and fix your hair. But if the boss who has not been saying thank you for overtime makes the same comment, you will see it as being mean.

It's the same with marriage. If there is a big thing going wrong, like SF being rare and unenthusiastic, every little snub is going to be magnified. Rude or brusque comments made because someone was in a bad mood are not going to just roll off your back like they would if you knew your spouse really loved you. And one way you know they really love you is enthusiastic SF.

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So, I have not read all of the replys to this so if I am covering something someone else already has I will appologise in advance...

To me it seems demeaning to your wife to compare her to a hooker when she has sex with you to make you happy. Do you compare her to a maid because she cleans the house? Or a personal chef when she cooks your dinner?

You should not disregard the act that she is doing out of love for you simply because she may not desire it as much as you do. Have you considered the possible reasons for her low sex drive? Yes there are tons of physical reason that many people have no desire for it but there are also emotional ones.

I know, especially for me, it is difficult to get in the mood when I feel like all my husband wants from me is SF. We have been struggling since my child was born. He spends all his time and attention on him and fails to realize that I am being left out. So the only attention I have gotten from him for about two years now is when he is wanting SF. We are just starting on the lessons here on this site and are working on fixing things (to include affection, admiration and attention) and now that he is aware of my emotional needs things are becoming easier between us.

However I do not want to be compared to a hooker simply because I was having sex with him to make him happy and Im sure your wife does not appreciate it either.


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Ajivechick,
It is good that you recognize that things have changed after having a baby. A lot of women are in denial about depression, loss of sex drive, energy, moodiness, etc. A lot of husbands feel pushed aside and, instead of trying to engage and put themselves into the new father role, they withdraw into their personal world of work, hobbies, TV, etc. Mother-in-laws, sisters, and other family members can negative factors in getting in the way an pushing the new father aside.

It is too easy for both husband and wife to do the wrong things, and make the marriage second place in their lives.


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Retread,

I have put everything aside for our M. She LB me so many times about things like hobbies and friends (mind you not drunken dorks, but upstanding christian friends who are dedicated to their families as well) that I quit all those things. I managed to work and fulfill her ENs and do the things she asked so we could SF. It never happened over and over. She sees her hypocrisies now and how she's confused the HE77 out of me.

You are right on target. I have stopped unintentionally and intentionally meeting her EN. I am getting to the point more and more that I don't care if we SF or not. My "business" is bankrupt due to the lack of cashflow and I do not care if the shelves are clean the trash is taken out etc.

I am still going through a lull, and know it will pass in a day or so and don't feel this bad maybe but twice a year, weather? Maybe.

Is it unfair to her that every night that goes by longer and longer without SF that is becomes a LB for me?

Ajivechick,

Many women feel as you do, but does your H go on and on about how he needs you to clean the house or cook? I bet he doesn't. I can do my own laundry, hell I can get it done outside the house/marriage, and I can hire a maid outside the house/marriage, should go outside the house/marriage for sex? No, it's not right and that is why many on this thread are frustrated. It's the one need a high sex drive spouse cannot go outside the marriage to get. Yes, we can masturbate and get a release, but wives can go get a job and pay half the bill too. Does that mean my wife is only using me to have food on the table and buy $100 lucky jeans? I can do my own laundry thank you.

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Ajivechick, even though I have not posted for a few days, I assume your comment about wives and hookers relates to my comment from some time ago. I think SF is substantively different than any other EN in marriage. There are many things we do for our spouses that are out of a sense of duty, and that is perfectly fine. Earning a living, putting gas in the car, washing clothes and a host of other things are done out of a sense of duty, and in fact do demonstrate love.

SF is very different. It involves emotional commitment and vulnerability that is non-existent in ANY other EN, with the possible exception of conversation. It seems to me that the only thing that makes SF intimate, sacred and special is that both H and W want to be there out of enjoyment of the act and an excited willingness to share at that level. If one or the other spouse is there because they have to be in order to get their ENs met, then sex is being traded as a quid pro quo. I would love to put a romantic spin on that, but I can't. What if my wife were to say, "Sure I'll make love to you. I don't really want to be here, but it is what I have to do in order to get you to talk to me, take good care of the kids and meet my other ENs."?

In that case I am no longer interested in making love. You can sugar coat it all you want, but that is NOT making love. That is having sex in exchange for a good or service that you want. Kinda turns my stomach to think of my wife doing that.

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Swanman: Okay, but what if your W had the attitude that she wanted to meet your needs for SF because she knows that it's important to you and she wants to meet your EN's and fill your LB and make you happy? Maybe she isn't "in the mood" as often as you are, but she is still willing to meet that need of yours because she cares about you and wants you to be fulfilled and satisfied? What is so wrong with that?

If there is a lower drive spouse, is it really fair (or even possible) to expect them to be "in the mood" as often as the higher drive spouse? There are many ways to enjoy the act of SF even if one is not "in the mood." It isn't all about hot and heavy passion and the big O. Women at least can enjoy SF on the level of being close to their spouse even if they aren't aroused or excited on a physical level. Why is it so hard for a man to understand that? And what is so wrong about that?


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Totally agree, Writer1. Some of the arguments about SF that H and I have are about this. He thinks I should be rarin' to go/hot and heavy 24-7. And I told him it's just not the way I work and he shouldn't compare it to our dating days, early marriage days, etc. And just because I'm not 'rarin to go' doesn't mean I can't be coaxed into it. And maybe I'm not up there at a level 10 on the hot-o-meter with him...maybe I'm at 5 or 6. But 5 or 6 gets me close to him, makes me happy about that, AND makes me happy to be doing something for him.

Not every session has to be a sweaty marathon.

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Chances are good that we were originally attracted by physical appearance, admiration, affection, and recreational companionship at the beginning of our relationships, so why can we not look at the priorities of emotional needs as different for a strong marriage versus a good sexual relationship? Why must there be only one list for both?

Isn't it more likely we weren't as attracted sexually by financial support, domestic support, or family committment? In a traditional setting, those things wouldn't be factors until after living together or marriage - generally speaking. Honestly, while getting my bills paid, having my driveway plowed, and doing things for my parents is very much appreciated (I certainly do feel lucky and grateful for that), but those things don't make me feel more womanly, more desirable, or on fire for sex...

I know there are other situations where women are looking for sugar daddies or daddy material, but in a broader sense...I have to wonder why we try to assume there is only one list of priorities to make both things (sexual happiness and marital strength) a reality? Aren't we allowed to be a little more complex than that? I mean...maybe we are expecting the answer to be too cut and dry...too simple.


Sooly

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Bubbles said to get her relaxed and rub her back shoulders, all of that. Don't think I haven't tried a million times. If you can think of it, I've done it. Beach vacations that ended up with her saying, are you done yet?

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How about every day affection and admiration without her getting the idea you want something in return? Does she get any of that? Do you have any idea how your wife feels about herself and whether or not she feels desirable? Is there anything you can do about that? Seems natural that she would be most attracted to the person who happens to be with her when she's feeling really good about herself.

Last edited by Soolee; 01/04/10 01:54 PM.

Sooly

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We go around this again and again. It is terribly simple. But not universally solvable.

In most relationships, there is a higher drive and lower drive spouse. The cruel reality is that typically the higher drive spouse has to work to "align the stars" to get the lower drive spouse interested. The even crueler reality is that this only works a portion of the time. In many cases, even when the "stars are aligned", the lower drive spouse is not interested in making themselves available.

The goods news is that implementing the full MB system tends to get the stars aligned. So it is always a good idea to implement the MB system as the first cut at a solution. Hopefully that will resolve the problem.

Another common situation is where the low drive is attributable to medical problems, rape, abuse or FOO issues. Solving this requires the lower drive spouse to address the issue and regain connection to their sexuality. Implementing the MB system increases the odds that the lower drive spouse will agree to do so.

When meeting ENs and eliminating LBs doesn't work, the odds get much grimmer. MB tells the high drive spouse to implement Plan B. Which is very disruptive and has a fairly low success rate. Often leading to divorce when it fails.

The key is to implement MB early, before years or decades of mismatch have lead to a huge reservoir of anger, resentment and frustration.

My advice to higher drive spouses: implement MB and make yourself a better spouse.

My advice to lower drive spouses: don't put all the burden on the higher drive spouse. Give those stars a little nudge into alignment from time to time.

As I said before, I agree with the people who spoke about viewing sex as a loving gift. I urge swanman to accept this view.


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Soolee,

Yes, I have. I should add that I always thought I was a good conversationalist because I am a listener. When we started the MB principles I found she wanted more talking. The change was almost instant, but she was getting that met from friends and family all day while I was at work. Add to that, when I talked of work (business owner here) she didn't want to heare ANYTHING that was negative, or ANY of my concerns or worries. It either had to be flowers and rainbows or it LB her, so it took a while to get that. The affection wasn't too much of a problem. She couldn't really complain about DS because I was already there.

Yes if you can think of something I've done it, and not just for the day, week, or month. I worked very hard at making permanent changes for the better and I can say arrogantly now that I would make a high drive woman a great husband.

Do I accept her when she will do it in love because she knows I need it. Yes, and I appreciate her for it and awkwardly thank her in my afterglow! I don't expect it hot and heavy everytime. I just want my confidence back and she does too, but does will not acknowledge that she needs to be a participator in getting that back. I could so easily destroy her confidence in her business in a heart beat, but unlike her I support her and listen when she has concerns and worries about her business. I'm there when she wants to talk about it and it shames her when something comes up that came up in my business and she wasn't supportive and in its stead was critical and mean.

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Originally Posted by themud
Bubbles said to get her relaxed and rub her back shoulders, all of that. Don't think I haven't tried a million times. If you can think of it, I've done it. Beach vacations that ended up with her saying, are you done yet?

Oh, OUCH, TM...

I'm so sorry. I think "are you done yet?" would hurt anywhere, beach or no...very much.

LA

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Writer1, you have created a false dilemma. You have painted this as a scenario in which I (or others with my viewpoint) demand the same level of desire from our spouse as we have. And you talk about it having to be hot, heavy and lengthy every time. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about my W obtaining enjoyment from making love to me most of the time. Let me be more clear.

I once asked my W, "If we never had sex again would you miss it?" Her answer: "Probably not." I am not looking for fishnet stockings, profuse sweating, and 7 orgasms five nights a week. But is it really asking too much to hope that my W gets enough out of it that she might miss it if we never did it again?

So, I now know that she does it for one reason, and one reason only: to get something of value in return. Sounds like a hooker to me.

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