Happy New Year, Everyone!!

I have not posted here for about a year. Used to post quite frequently 10 years ago or so while going through my divorce - a really painful time. In most ways, I am past it now, but in others, I can see that it has affected me the most in the way of relationships - namely - lack of any (with men, that is!!) What started out as a period of self-imposed abstinence/journey to a new life of independence, has turned into a long stretch! I have not been in a relationship nor dated anyone since my divorce. Not that I haven't had opportunities - most of them involved men who were married or in relationships, and I refused to go there. (See my last post "Friendship Out of Control - Now What?" that details my encounter with a very attractive man who chased me for almost 2 years, even though he was engaged. (He is now married, and I have had no contact with him since then.) I guess all of the interesting men are married or otherwise involved, it seems!! At my age (54) it is difficult to meet unattached men. Or is it just my fear that keeps me from going there again? I don't go out looking, just live my life, and do things that interest me and hang out with friends, and am active at church, etc. I am beginning to think that I am too independent, and too used to being on my own, and that this may scare away most men. I have a good sense of humor, like to have fun, and look younger than my age. Guys do flirt with me, but it seems that are all attached or much too young!

One good thing though, is that my ex and I have become friends again. He is still married to the woman he cheated with, even though their relationship has been long-distance for about six years. I have no interest in getting back together with him - but it is nice that we can talk again, and get together every now and then. He is actually nice to me now. The trauma of having the person you love most cheat on you, and toss you aside as casually as one throws away trash has me wondering if it is possible to trust again in any intimate relationship. Most people nowadays seen to have an agenda, and as soon as you are not a part of that agenda any longer, they will throw you away. I have seen so much of that behavior that it frightens me. I trusted my (now ex) H and never thought he would behave in such a manner.

At this point - I am still somewhat ambivelent - I would like to have a nice man in my life, but fear losing my independence! Sounds like a typical guy complaint, doesn't it?!

So guys - would you feel uncomfortable about dating a woman who has been celibate/abstinent for a long period of time? And who has been independent for a long period of time?

Lady M,

You asked "guys" to respond, so since I'm a guy, here's my take.

But before I do, please note that my current situation puts me in a position where my opinion and status are questionable, at best. I am on the verge of divorce due to my wife's adultery, which has shaken me to the core. At 58, I now face an uncertain future. The thought of entering the "dating pool" at this age frightens me, to tell the truth.

The reason I felt compelled to respond to your post is that I would think someone who has developed an independence and a comfort level with themselves is much more appealing than someone who needs to have another person in their life to "make them complete." There seem to be so many - men and women - who behave that way.

When I married my STBX, I had been single for 11 years. The number of dates I had gone on you could count on one hand (my first marriage of 17 years fell apart due to my inability to control my drinking. That separation -- which lasted five years before finalizing in divorce -- was the impetus for me getting sober. I am now coming up on 19 years alcohol, drug and tobacco free). That period of relationship "abstinence" was crucial for me to get comfortable being "in my own skin."

A dear friend of mine (now departed) once told me, "Fred, I don't believe God intends for us to be alone. There is someone out there for you. She's just not ready for you, yet. So you have to keep on being the person you were meant to be, and when the time is right, you'll meet her." When I met my STBX, I thought I had. Now I look back and realize part of the problem leading up to her affair was that I wanted so much for her to be "the one" that I bent over backwards and allowed her to abuse me emotionally instead of discussing the problems in our marriage. As has been said here on MB over and over, "We each own 50% of the problems of our marriage, but she/he owns 100% of the decision to cheat on it."

To recap from my wordy response, I think I would much rather date a woman who'd been independently and purposely single than one who'd been bouncing from relationship to relationship (and there are plenty of those around. I even married one, much to my chagrin). I think you have every reason to hold your head up, chin out and be proud of being the person who sticks to your principles. And that means you can also be choosy about who you decide to spend your time with. Good for you!

Lady M, I am interested to see what your responses are as I have been single since Nov 02 and can count the number of dates on one hand. Have male friends and do get hit on and flirted with when I go out with friends. Have conversed extensively with guys from online dating sites, but... nothing.

I like you am very independent and financially secure, I don't need a man in my life, I would like to have one. I don't want them to give up their independence and spend all of their time with me, nor do I want to give up my independence for them, I don't want to change my life just add a man to it!!!!

Fred, You said that you would think that men would be attracted to an independent women and they are not I am here to tell you, it scares them and I don't understand how that is. Anybody else able to add to this?

I'm not Fred. I'm not even a guy! But I am really hoping what he says is true, because I'm 38 and probably going to end up divorced here in the near-ish future. I'll probably be like you... purposefully single, rather than bouncing in and out of relationships.

You'll have to keep me posted on your journey... I'll be rooting for you.

Wolf, not Cougar
Why wolf? Wolves mate for life.
I'm in a place I never thought I'd be...

Ladies,

Propriety (and the law) prevent me from asking either of you for a date. And since it was The Leopard's lack of boundaries that brought me to this forum, I guess that makes me safe to converse with.

Prior to my marriage to The Leopard, I had a brief relationship with a woman who was intelligent (she had a Masters in math; I have an MBA in Technology Management), articulate, a great cook, a terrific gardener, active (a runner, like me), had a larger home than mine, and kept it clean and well maintained and was quite self-sufficient. I found her fascinating, scintillating and intellectually stimulating. She could explain quadratic equations while the two of us sliced and diced our way to pork tenderloin with homemade peach salsa.

In my opinion, any man who would be turned off by such a woman has real issues with his own self-esteem (read: manhood). The Leopard exhibited many of these same qualities at first, which is what attracted me to her. Unfortunately, after the honeymoon wore off, The Leopard's other attributes rose to the surface and quickly overshadowed (or completely put lie to) her finer qualities. Nonetheless, this is one man who is not looking for a "mommy substitute," or for someone to be "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen." I like to think of myself as intelligent, well-traveled, conversant on a lot of topics, inquisitive and open to new experiences. I seek the same in a woman, because after all, isn't a relationship about sharing experiences?

If you read Dr. Harley's list of Emotional Needs, don't the majority of them have an element of shared experience to them?

Ladies, can I now turn the question around to you? Both of you have suggested men aren't interested in you because of your independent natures. Have you considered the possibility that you are sending out subliminal "keep away" messages? If I were single, and having admitted my preference for the qualities you display, how would you let your interest and availability be known to me?

I wouldn't express my interest, 'cause I'm still married and hoping for the miracle that WH pulls his head out of his [censored] and comes through his mid-life crisis and other issues as someone I'd want to be with. My word is golden until those divorce papers are signed.

However, I WOULD jump up and down with glee to introduce you to my aunt Judy in MN. Dead serious, dude.

Actually, on a more serious note... I have absolutely NO idea how I'd express interest to a guy I liked. I'm totally clueless. My story is on another thread. I've never been single, really... and now thanks to WH's cheating, abandonment, alcohol problems and long term porn addiction my self-esteem is in the crapper. I have lots of guy friends. I can't imagine dating any of them. I'm the wrong person to ask because I'm a total mess. At least I *recognize* I'm a total mess and I have a lot to do before I'm ready or able to date. There's no way in Heck I'd use some perfectly nice guy just to gratify my ego and make me feel better about myself right now.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Wolf_not_Cougar. But I did say that legally (I'm still married until the end of April at the earliest) I couldn't do that, and philosophically I wouldn't do that, because that would then lower me to The Leopard's level.

No, after the divorce, I'm going to take it very slow before diving into the dating pool. I'm going to get my "sea legs" first. As I wrote in my thread on Surviving an Affair, I just took a solo trip to Iceland for New Year's Eve. I want to feel comfortable in my own skin again before bringing my baggage, trust issues and PTSD that The Leopard caused in me by her actions.

My interest was piqued by this topic, however. And my surprise at learning that women (plural = more than one) believe men are not attracted to secure, confident, able women. I have to wonder: Am I the odd one because I do find them attractive and appealing, or is there some other dynamic at work here that none of is aware of, or is including in the conversation?

Wow - thanks everyone for your replies.
Wolf - I read your other post - your story broke my heart - I have felt the same as you - like I was thrown away like trash he no longer had use for. Like you, I have trust issues, too.
Fred - interesting observation - one that I have also considered, given the depth of the pain my ex-H caused, and the way that has colored my view of relationships. I am a very friendly, open person, with many friends, both male and female. If an truly eligible man approached me, I would definitely give him a chance, but definitely take it slow, and become friends, getting to know each other first before becoming intimate. That's another thing - a lot of guys want to become sexually involved rather quickly, and lose interest if you don't feel the same way. I for one, will not be rushed!! But as I mentioned, it seems that only the ones already attached seem to approach me! Perhaps, too - I am too picky!! I am interested in being with a man who is intelligent, well-read, kind, with a sense of humor, and will treat me like a lady. Seems hard to come by!!
If the man that I mentioned (who was engaged but pursued me) had been unattached, I would have definitely been interested in dating him, and getting to know him better. even though he was 10 years younger than me. He did not seem to be fazed by my independence, or the age diffence.

Lady M, you have given me hope that the woman for me still exists! For whatever reason, I consider myself somewhat of a throwback: I believe in holding the door, helping a woman with her coat, standing when a woman enters, and all of the "old fashioned" values that seem to have been deemed out of vogue.

As for the sexual aspect, I have never been the aggressor in a new relationship. I have always preferred to let the relationship grow, and when sex becomes a part of it, it is by mutual agreement.

Last night I was listening to a radio talk show and the host commented that today's role models as created by Hollywood are typically vapid, immoral, conscience-lacking "skanks" (I don't know what the male equivalent of "skank" is, but whatever it is, it applies as well). We are inundated by a constant barrage of actors, athletes, politicians and business people conducting the most heinous of immoral and unethical acts. Only rarely are we given a glimpse into the lives of the truly moral and outstanding people, like the Rev. Billy Graham.

Let me repeat to you something that was said to me a number of years ago. I don't often remember things verbatim, but this so struck me that I've remembered it to this day. It was told to me by a dear, now-departed friend:

When I met The Leopard, I thought this "prophecy" had come true. What I now realize is that I so wanted it to be true that I ignored and overlooked the that should have alerted me to keep waiting. Now it turns out I'm back in that position with a few more wrinkles on my face and a few new scars on my heart.

I started out this response by declaring that you have given me hope! I would like to think I can offer you the same hope.

If it were a different time and a different place, I think I would like to talk with you more. As it is, we will have to confine our interactions to this site. Have faith!

Wow, your WH reads just like mine! Except I'm a few steps ahead of you...divorced for 6 weeks now. You might be surprised at the men who come out of the woodwork once you are divorced. What about you is a mess?

Fred - it is nice to hear that some "throwbacks" still exist!!

I'm sorry that you have joined the ranks of those of us whose spouses thought so little of us (and of themselves, as well) that they thought cheating was the answer to their marital and/or personal problems. As we know, it is never the answer - it only becomes a complication, one that causes untold pain.

I know it sometimes seems that the pain will never end, but it does. It took me a very long time to get over my ex-h's actions, but I can honestly say that I am much better off now - I no longer am in an emotionally abusive relationship, a relationship where he used emotional blackmail in order to get me to think, feel, act, be, and do what he thought I should, with no regard for my feelings or wishes. The funny thing is, he is now really nice to me, and we have become friends again. Why couldn't he have been nice to me when we were married?!

I am much happier now, being on my own. I have control over my life, and make my own decisions. I have done really well at managing my household, my finances, my career, social life,etc. Which of course, is part of what has brought me to this point - my questioning of what if I am past the point of being able to be in a relationship - possibly at risk for "Independent Behavior", and of meeting appropriate potential partners.

LM, do you let it be known to your family and friends that you are interested in a relationship? Maybe men don't ask you out because they think you don't want to date---especially if you have not dated in a very long time.

I don't want to hijack anyone's thread, so you can read my story Wolf, not Cougar asks about dating after divorce here and Wolf, not Cougar's whole story here.

I'm having a hard time feeling worthless,and even getting back on my feet again. I have a chronic pain condition, and lots of scars... physical and emotional. I'm average looking, kind of nerdy in my interests and I can't imagine anyone would want me with the baggage I'm carrying now. Before all this I was confident, playful, passionate and affectionate ... very much a "glass half full" kind of person. But I doubt and question everything and everyone now. I'm doing all the right stuff.. CoDA, AlAnon support groups, individual counseling, etc. Good things have come from all this, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to love someone with my whole heart again, and I'm so angry at WH for squandering my trust and innocence, I guess.

Just trying to take it day by day.... but yeah, I'm a mess.
Wolf, not Cougar
Chel

Ok someone asked if we are sending signals "stay away".

I might have in the past, but believe that I have addressed the issue and smile and say Hi or nod to those that are of interest to me. I don't want to encourage someone that is not of interest to me!!!

But still nothing, I've talked about this before on this site. And have done the things that were suggested to me. I am not going to lower my standards as I want someone of quality in my life. I have waited this long, I am not going to settle.

I am just blown away by how easily some people come and go in relationships, and think why not me and then I look again at the quality of the relationship and go "oh Yeah!!"


I now that I am worth it, I have been told that I am an amazing person and have great qualities. Does that scare guys away, that they may not be of quality? I look for people that are going to add value to my life and that is who I associate with.

I know that the journey is to be part of the fun getting to the destination, but come on I have to have someone to journey with me!!!!!

Just my thoughts!!!!

Yeah, about the "stay away" vibes...

One of WH and my mutual friends mentioned that to me the other day. He said that I'd always had a "stay away" vibe that kept people I didn't know at arm's length... until I got to know them. Then, I welcome them.

He also has observed that since WH abandoned me this last time, that I've reached out, and developed stronger and deeper relationships with my other friends... like him and his wife, for example.

I can only speak to my experience, but I've THOUGHT I was always pretty friendly. But who really knows how other people see you?

Wolf, not Cougar
Chel

On the question of independence being a turnoff, I think I can shed some light. It certainly doesn't have to do with intelligence, ability to take care of yourself, or that you have an established social life. I want to be needed by my SO, and if you're sending the message that you don't need me, it's just for fun, I'm not interested. I don't want to chase and try and create a need that isn't there, or put up an image of someone I'm not like some sort of peacock.

Looking at my ex, I think it's safe to say that she wasn't all that independent, but she did not want to give me the feeling that I was needed, that she couldn't just take or leave me. As it turns out, she could!

As well, I think it has alot to do with what my ENs are, or perhaps a lack of confidence. I;m not sure.

I guessing I'm not really shining much light afterall.

WnC, when The Leopard pounced and my world was turned upside-down, she told me that one of my/our friends had told her (for some reason, she felt it necessary to tell others before she told me) that I wouldn't reach out to others in my pain; that I would just withdraw into my own personal shell.

And he was right. That would have been my first reaction! Recognizing this, I knew instinctively that this would have been the absolute worst thing I could do. So, much like I have done here, I have gone against my primal instincts (or perhaps they were learned at an early age? Something to ponder later) and done what I wouldn't have ordinarily done.

The results have been amazing. I have found friends I didn't know I had. I found friends I thought I had who wouldn't pee on me if I was on fire. Everything I thought I knew about myself and others has turned out to be quite in error.

My point is that one of the key reasons I stay on MB even when I realize my marriage is probably destined for the dustheap, is that it helps me examine myself, and address my personal character defects that prevent me from being the best person and partner I can be.

Introspection is very tough for some people. I'm not unfamiliar with it, but it's like peeling an onion: For every layer I strip off, another layer lies underneath waiting to be inspected.

dk, I have thought about that, not needing a guy but just wanting one!

I get that guys need to be needed. But do I have to give up my independence for them to feel that I need them? Shouldn't we just be able to compliment each other and add value to each others lives with our on strengths?

I guess that is what I am wanting and looking for, maybe that doesn't exist, I don't know!!

My independence was probably a part of the demise of my marriage. As the x figured I was strong enough and independent enough to handle life and kids on my own and that the GF was so weak that she wouldn't survive without him!

Oh well, I am with Fred as to being here on MB and growing, I've been here on and off for a long time and grow each time that I post!!!! I encourage people to come here all the time!!! Even if they don't save their marriages they save themselves!!!

OK. I will weigh in here for you ladies. I am a guy, 42 years old. I am not "fresh" from the disintegration of my marriage either.

An independent woman? That is a short description. But here is my take - relationships work when people are equally yoked. And this is across the board - spiritually, sexually, emotionally, intellectually, physical activity, etc. If you are equally yoked in all those areas, it will work.

An independent woman? Doesn't scare me, in particular, I like it. I have single male friends who hate it.

Why? I think because I am very secure in myself. I don't need to be buoyed up to be happy. And a woman who DOES, to me, feels clingy and needy and basically feels like a weight.

Have I ended relationships with independent women? YES. Why? All the ones I ended were not because they were independent, but because they felt they needed to PROVE it all the time.

I can fix cars. I have the knack. My last GF was independent, and she would call and let me know she had her car fixed. I'd say "Honey, you should have called me, I could have done it for you and saved you some money..." She would respond "I don't want you to think I need to depend on you..."

That really was annoying. I KNEW she didn't need to depend on me. I knew how much money she made, she was good with her money, she HAD the money to have her car fixed. But what she did, was remove an opportunity for me to bless her, to show her I loved her by performing an act of service (one of the 5 love languages, GREAT book BTW).

And on and on it went. She was so dead set on proving to me she didn't need me that it didn't work. I wanted someone to SHARE with, that INCLUDES bad things. I wanted a partner on whom I could lean, and she could lean on me back. (I allowed her to do things for me that I could do myself as well, I took it as a sign of love).

So there you go... An independent MAN will be fine with an independent woman - just watch for that pitfall.

There are men who want a woman who needs them. A close friend of mine is like that. He has to constantly rescue his girlfriend (I guess in order to shore up his own self-image, I wouldn't know, I can't figure it out). So they are out there. Those guys are NOT going to want an independent woman.

The current lady I am interested in is also very independent, but we play to each others strengths very well. Things I rock at, she lets me do for her, and vice-versa. As a sign of love. Because it is nice to help out your partner.

So....

BE independent, but don't shout "I'M INDEPENDENT!"

Understand?

NCW, I'm kind of offended by the implication that wanting to stay away from independent women is some sort of sign of insecurity. However, I think we really don't have a good definition of independent, are thinking of different characteristics.

I do agree with most of what you say though regarding wanting to be interdependent on each other.

daybreak, I honestly don't think you have to stop being capable of handling life on your own. That just isn't what it's about with me (and maybe guys like me). The way you present wanting and needing makes you think that you're not really wanting to invest yourself too much, or you want the guy to invest himself heavily before you do. That's fine, but my take is to just not get involved with that. I don't want to risk that much upfront, I'd rather not get too involved myself. I guess after time, you start to figure out which ones are likely to invest in you, and which ones won't atleast not for a long time.