SH advised a poster that behaviour changes may not be enough to recover a M...belief changes are necessary. My head hurts thinking about this lol. I know it makes sense but if a FWS takes steps towards just compensation and puts EPs in place, how do you know it's the belief system (since you can't see these things) and not just the behavior that is changed?

I question this for my own marital R. I can see H's behavior but I know his belief system is different than mine in some aspects. How do you reconcile the two? I don't see my H ever understanding what his A had done to me. What are the odds of marriage building successfully if there is still that disconnect regardless of the behavior?

LOL Pep. I'll be waiting...

I have struggled with this too, although I have decided recently to stop fretting about what I cannot control, and I feel more at peace.

For me, it was not so much (or perhaps, not just) that H does understand what he did to me. It was that he did not believe that his grabbing "fun" was wrong and harmful, even if I never knew. It is the old "tree falling in a forest" question for him, to which his answer would probably be "who cares?"

He has changed his job and is with me whenever he is not working. He has thrown new energy into the family and seems devoted to me. However, if he still believes that a discreet affair is okay, then I am not safe (duh...do you think?!)

I have been re-reading HNHN, and what strikes me even more strongly this time is that Dr H says very little about beliefs. He concentrates on behaviour. In fact, his rules on EPs suggest that an attitude shift is unnecessary. All that is necessary is that you never allow someone else to meet your needs even a little bit.

Obviously, this is a bit different from what his son says.

Are we related?

Gotta go. I have a sick little one to tend too. Like SugarCane said, I don't recall reading about a changed belief system. That would be a plus. H does believe his A was horribly wrong, immoral and what not but some the things that he believes don't fall in line with mine.

I'll be back.....

Give the little one a kiss from me, and tell her to tell her mother to write to me.

I totally agree with this concept. A person who has an affair has not only let someone else meet EN, they have also bought into some lies that made it "okay" to have the A. The person needs to not only figure out what those thinking errors and wrong attitudes are, s/he needs to purge them from her/his belief system so that the same thinking/attitudes don't lead down the same rabbit hole. There are levels to healing.

1. behaviors, which I think HNHN and SA deal with nicely
2. thinking errors
3. emotional healing
4. spiritual healing

IMO, SA stops at #1, when actually there are 3 more levels of healing that can (and dare I say SHOULD) happen.

Hi wonderin3,

I used to read your thread when I was a scared lurker here. I was upset by what transpired for you. How about an update? I hope things are going well.

Hi Sugar Cane,

I'm glad to see you moved from lurking to sharing your insights! I tend to drop in every anniversary of D Day (I'm at 2 now), but the in between months are so busy that I don't make it here much. I guess that is a good sign, since not needing to post (for me) means not being in such a desperate place.

I'm moving along the healing path. I've learned SO much, and I've been SO blessed to find a support group of women who've all experienced sexual betrayal. We are all about 2 years out, so we have much in common and find eachother's insights/situations very helpful to our own journeys.

I've also been very fortunate in that I found a counselor who is not only a smart cookie, she also experienced infidelity 20+ years ago and "knows." Her marriage made it. She claims to be head over heals in love with her FWH, which is a huge encouragement to me! She has been incredibly helpful. I can't say enough about her!

As for my H...he too continues his healing journey, though at a much slower pace. It has been really painful for him to dive into the reasons he made the choice, his thinking errors, his wrong attitudest, etc. Its like looking your worst mistake in the eye over and over, which I do believe is no fun at all, but you can't heal what you won't feel. He has done exceptionally well in the area of behavioral healing. He has never broken NC, he is meeting my EN (though I don't let them count for much just yet), he put in EPs that satisfy me, and his pre A behaviors (criticisms/put downs/DJs/IBs/etc) are not an issue (thank God! I don't think I'd be with him if they were still a problem).

I have worked really hard to disassociate and break my codependent tendencies, so my goal is not to focus on his path except to determine if my bottom lines are being met. I finally accept that I cannot do a darn thing about his choices/thinking/feeling/etc. My only choice is weather or not to put up with them . My mantra is: I didn't cause his affair, I can't fix his thinking errors/wrong attitudes, and I can't control his behaviors/thinking. With this, I really release him to God - but Oh do I pray for him!!

I'm just believe that God will provide for me whether or not my H is in the picture and whether or not we make it 2 more years or a lifetime. It has helped me find peace with the ups and downs of R.

Currently, my feelings are flat for my H. That scares me, because after 2 years of working, I wonder if I'll ever feel for him again. According to my C, this is often a crisis point for many at 2-3 years for exactly that reason. This makes many vulnerable to having their own A. I've still got a wall up and won't let my H's efforts touch me much. I have to see him work a bit more on the deeper levels of healing and keep at it for the long haul before I'm willing to be vulnerable to him. Not sure if that is good or bad. It is what it is.

Anyway, I have a lot of hope. I'm setting the bar high, because in the end, I want to say that I feel "chosen" again, and the only way I believe I'll fell that is if he works HARD to keep me . Best,

Wonderin

As a BS, I want the change in attitude too, but when I read Dr Harley I can see that the only attitude that needs to be adopted is "I will not leave my marriage open to an attack", or "I will not let anyone other than my spouse meet my ENs."

We do not have to have a philosophical (for want of a better word) reason why. The attitude can be adopted out of pure selfishness: "I do not want to go through all that again" or "I do not want to lose my spouse and kids". As long as the EPs are rigourously enforced, the end result is the same: a protected marriage. With enjoyable time spent together, it will also be a happy marriage.

I'm not sure that SaA stops at level 1.

It deals with thinking errors such as those that suggest friendships with the opposite sex are not risky, or that nights apart, travelling jobs and going to bars are not dangerous. It tells us a lot that we do not know about ENs and how they must be met.

It does not deal with emotional healing as a separate exercise, but it suggests that a happy marriage will be the result of using the MB tools. THAT will produce emotional healing.

I'm not sure what you mean by spiritual healing. If you mean repenting to God and trying to live a godly life, I think it recommends that for believers. Certainly there is section on bible study and prayer.

I think I know how you feel; you perhaps want to see the WS's selfish, entitled spirit broken, and to see humble remorse and sorrow. So do I! However, I have had those things for only short periods, just after the D Days. I am now trying to accept that if my H focuses on me, the marriage and our family, then there is emotional peace for me, instead of the misery of the recent past.

If a still unrepentant WS is shown grace and forgiveness (after 3 years of punishment, in my case!), there might be sorrow later on, for wounding me and our marriage, and ultimately himself. That would be excellent.

IMO, MB is much like The AA Program in that they are both behavioral focused. But the goal of working the AA 12 steps is to lead the individual to a spiritual awakening. Example; Step 12 - "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps...."

I think that the same goal (Belief changes/Spirtual awakening) should be expected from a wayward as well. (Within a reasonable amount of time in recovery) A BS must remember, it's typically a process, not an event!


I know SMB would have never considered recovery unless she was certain that I had an evident change in my psyche.

tst, unfortunately
As much as I'd like to think my WW could be rehabilitated, her history and behaviors (as well as some of the "elders" in our A.A. community) suggest that she is incapable of being honest with herself.

With this kind of barrier, recovery is next to impossible.

How I'd prayed she could be brought to the light, but it won't happen in my lifetime.

Your quite right Fred...... but when a person finally hits bottom and is willing to admit they are powerless.....

Well.....


Anything is possible!


I do believe in miracles ya'know.
I am one!

Absolutely correct, tst. However, I refuse to put my life on hold waiting for something that may never happen.

WW left three previous husbands before me. The odds are against her having a "spiritual awakening" at this point.

But I will not close the door on the possibility. Not for me, but for her.

I'm not sure I agree that it will be a happy marriage. My H has spent the last 2 years trying to protect our M, especially where he let his fence get weak. And, I have to admit he has done a good job. I no longer feel compelled to check up on him. We have taken the SA advice and spent as close to 15 hrs a week as possible doing something we enjoy. However, I would in no way say ours is a "happy" marriage. I don't feel "in love" with him. I am simply traveling the R road with him in hopes that one day I will. I need more than just EPs and RC in order to claim a "happy" M. We get along. He has qualities I like. We share 2 beautiful kids. We are good companions...but happily married? Um...No...not yet anyway.

He hasn't earned my heart back. I still hurt when I look at him and think about how much I loved him and sacrificed for him while he was busy loving himself and not giving a second thought to me. I doubt every year we spent together pre A. And it is gonna take a lot more than EPs and fun times for me to start believing that he is loving me before himself again.


True enough. But I'm not sure I would call those thinking errors as much as...trains of thought or belief systems maybe? When I use the term "thinking error" I am referring to distorted thinking...things like minimizing, blame shifting, defensiveness, rationalization, justification, and lying. In the case of my H...many of those were a part of what led to his A.

We check our thinking all the time now. I find that I often fall into justification post d day. I feel "justified" in AO, for example. A lot of times, he'll say something that jsut sounds off to me. When we take a look, we usually find that one of the above is playing into our choice to sin. It is actually very helpful to both of us. But, even now, there are parts of the pre A circumstances that I believe my H cannot see clearly. We are working on IC right now, but eventually, we hope to take a look at it together in MC.

When I mention emotional healing, I am refferring to dealing with the hurts in our past rather than stuffing all the bad as deep as we can and letting it effect our today. I'm talking about facing the ways we hurt each other pre A and making amends. I'm talking about working through forgiveness. And I'm not just talking about me forgiving him but also him forgiving himself.

Spiritual healing to me starts with repentance, but it doesn't end there. Repentance means turing a 180 from prior behavior and showing a broken, contrite heart before God. It means accepting his mercy and grace and then returning to Him full force. It means allowing him to once again be King of your life and allowing him to change you one day at a time, one way at a time.

A happy marriage brought about by meeting ENs and 15 hrs RC isn't gonna cut it...at least not for me. I want the full deal.


I think you are onto something here, but can you wait indefinitely for that? I'm not sure I can. I believe God can do anything. He can surly move my mountain. But I don't believe our M will experience full healing unless each of us are fully, wholeheartidly seeking God. That, I know, is a process and will not happen over night or even over a year or two. We may never arrive, but we should be aiming for that every day. I won't be happy to stay in this M is we aren't moving along in that direction.

Ok, I apologise in advance because my thoughts are all jumbled on this so this post will be a bit rambling.

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment when I read the post about beliefs and behaviours in terms of my own recovery and why it takes 2-5 years to recover from an A.

I think SH was talking specifically about DJ's, AO's, and SD's and it's easy in those cases to see exactly where he is coming from. Most people can bite their lips for a period of time to stop all those LB'ers but unless you believe it is wrong to DJ, AO and be selfish, then the behaviours will likely resurface at some point.

My FWH and I have talked through all our LB'ers and I know that we now both believe it is wrong to be disrespectful, have AO's and be selfish.

Since this post though I've been thinking (always very dangerous for me) about whether it is necessary for deeper beliefs to change in order to truly recover and how this is measureable.

I know that BB believed adultery to be wrong. We talked about it long before we married, but this belief didn't stop him from committing adultery so it's deeper than that. What deep seated belief allowed him to set aside his belief that adultery was wrong?

Is it the "me me me" culture we live in that seems to allow us all to justify or rationalise our behaviours however bad they may be? Is it plain and simple entitlement?

I believe that I am important but I certainly do not believe that the value I place on myself allows me to hurt someone. I don't think my FWH believed he was entitled to hurt anyone, he'd be upset at me if I asked him to kill a spider in the house, yet he did hurt many people.

So what belief did he have that allowed him to act in the way he acted and how do I KNOW that that belief is no longer there.

He can tell me he'll never hurt me again but we are told not to put much credence in what waywards say, so I can look to his behaviours and again they may show me that he won't hurt me but if his deep seated beliefs haven't been addressed then how do us BS's know that the improved behaviours are not just covering up the flawed belief system?

I don't even know if I'm making sense?

I do know that I don't want a recovery in which my FWH merely behaves in a certain way to make me happy but does not really believe that the needs of us are less important that the needs he has.

Is a behavioural approach sufficient for a full recovery? Is RH about ones deepest feelings and beliefs the foundation on which all the behaviours necessary for a good M sit?

Oh Lordy, I so wish I could explain my thoughts better.....

I spoke to my WS yesterday. I said that he is like a chameleon. He will always fit in with the crowd he is with and I believed that if his subsequent behaviours conflicted with his values and beliefs, then it is easier to change those than to change the behaviour because otherwise, he would not be one of the group.

He said that his values and beliefs had not changed. So I asked whether he had always thought that adultery is ok? I wouldn't have been attracted to him if I thought that he thought like that and would certainly not have married him.

He said quietly, that no, he did not think that adultery is ok.
I believe that initially he did change his values to fit his behaviour and as that behaviour became the norm, he forgot completely what his original values were.

In which case, those values still exist albeit hidden by the results of his behaviour. I think the real question is what boundaries need to be put up to stop the behaviour and allow the return of the real person underneath.

You've come through loudly and clearly to me, sere.

About deep-seated beliefs, and how they change to allow adultery:

I can't cite the source offhand, but I know that Dr Harley has said that he has seen absolutely every type of person commit adultery. He said something like, "sadly, those with strongly-held religious beliefs and strong moral convictions commit affairs". Consider the different kinds of people we never believed would do it and who did. Church ministers, women who were virgins on their wedding day, people who ran bible study classes in their neighbourhood, the Northern Ireland politician (Robinson) who was such a staunch Christian, marriage counsellors, people who set up orphanages or animal shelters...

Genuinely-held beliefs and values do not seem to preclude people from affairs. Well, yes of course, they do for some; not ALL church ministers have affairs! 50% of married people have them but the other 50% do not, so some of us with beliefs have affairs and some do not. We do not know why, not really.

So, if we want a change in beliefs from our spouse, we might be taking a misleading path to protection. For one thing, we cannot actually know what someone's beliefs really are. We cannot really know another's mind. A WS who is given the condition of remorse and repentance before being allowed back into the marriage can demonstrate those things, but the BS cannot really know whether they feel them. I'll bet many a BS looks at the "repentant" spouse and wonders whether the remorse is real. If they were that good a liar during the affair, how can the BS ever know them again?

It is almost as if Dr Harley treats beliefs as too unreliable to build a marriage upon. You cannot know whether your spouse is one of the 50% of practising Christians who will have an affair or one of the 50% who will not. Perhaps they cannot know, either - think of the many people who say "I never thought I would have an affair" but did.

So, do we stop placing importance on beliefs and simply place importance on actions? EPs, in other words?

BR, does your H know that adultery is wrong? He probably DOES, doesn't he? See, what I think Steve is talking about is this: in order for someone to commit a crime, they must change their belief system to convince themselves it is ok. For example, look how many WS's tell themselves that they have been mistreated [rewrite history] and have "given and given" and "by GOD it is my turn to be happy now!!" They change their belief system to rationalize the crime. Rarely do you see remorse right away. And that is because the adulterer has convinced himself that wrong is right.

The reason a person goes through these logical gymnastics is because the pull of their addiction is more powerful than their LOGIC. This is what motivates them to change their BELIEFS rather than their behavior.

But, since feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS, just removing the source of the addiction is usually enough to change that persons beliefs back to normal. Once the pull of the addiction is gone, they will no longer have to engage in practices of mental masturbation that serve to justify the unjustifiable.

In other words, changing the behavior changes the BELIEFS. But if a person is still foggy can still rationalize an affair when they are not addicted, then the marriage is probably doomed to more of the same.