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Originally Posted by NervousNewbie
Bingo. I must admit to some surprise that a Ph.D. would blindly promote the results from a single study of questionable scientific merit (Consumer Reports is not peer-reviewed, AFAIK) in light of so much conflicting evidence. The efficacy of marriage counseling is still very much an open question in the scientific community.

First off, he does not "blindly promote" the findings of one study, he is a voracious researcher of all studies done on the subject. It happens to be just one such study that he cites. There are no such things as "scientific" "peer reviewed" studies in this arena because it is based on self reporting. That is the standard in this arena.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You've cited ONE study (done by a magazine). Studies done by professors, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, find a quite different conclusion. Here is a meta-analysis that links to several dozen other studies:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3658/is_199510/ai_n8720965/

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The Consumer Report study also used the self reporting methodology. By your stated criterion, it's not scientific either.

Last edited by NervousNewbie; 02/16/10 12:16 PM.
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Z,

I think the problem with success rates varying from one study to another is in defining what is success and what is a failure. "Did we help you?" isn't a very compelling question, IMO.

Most traditional method MCs strive to improve communication and conflict resolution skills. Those things can easily improve a great deal and the couple still not be in love with each other.

Dr Harley actually says that when there is conflict, the way to remain in love is not to focus on the resolution as much as it is to preserve the love you have for each other. He says that remaining in love with each other is more important than finding a resolution to conflict.

He cites couples who seem to have nothing but conflict yet remain married for their entire lives and yet other couples who seem to be able to find resolution to conflict with no trouble at all end up divorced because they fall out of love with each other.

Couples who learn to communicate better often communicate their desires for the divorce settlement with little trouble. Couples who have learned better negotiation skills can negotiate division of assets with no problem at all.

The definition of success for a marriage counselor should be or at least should include as a primary part of that definition whether or not the couple remains married and even better, if they report being happily married.

Does a counselor who claims to be a marriage counselor gauge his or her success on saving marriages and helping couples to have a better marriage or should he just concern himself with helping each marriage partner learn to move on and become a better person?

For me that's the bottom line in any study of marriage counseling techniques. What makes marriages better as opposed to what helps couples deal with the dissolution of the marriage...

You are right that you can find a study to back up almost any opinion, but when you look at the study, many of them are based on a false premise and are actually attempts to justify a preconceived notion of some kind. When the actual numbers involved are looked at and the way those numbers are organized is taken into account, it is actually pretty simple to spot a study that has been fudged.

This was actually what led Dr Harley to looking for his method to begin with. Nobody actually bothered to follow up on couples 5, 10 or more years down the road to see if they were a) still married and b) if they said that they were happily married.

If I have cancer I might find someone who can help me come to grips with my imminent demise. I might even be able to accomplish that on my own. But if I want to live and not die, I want someone who offers a solution that will give me the best chance of survival 10 years, 20 years or some time in the future instead of helping me deal with the loss of my life.

If I measure success rates of marriage counselors as to how many marriages are kept together and become happy, healthy marriages, traditional marriage counseling really doesn't offer a whole lot of hope.

Can they help?

Sure they can. It's just that they often help a couple come to grips with the "reality" of not being in love with each other as opposed to Dr Harley who tries to help them fall in love again. That's why they got married and that will be what keeps the marriage alive.

MB is really the only program that directly addresses that problem.

And just so you understand me, there are MCs that use Dr H's methods and a bunch of programs, some religious based and some secular that actually use his materials as part of their program.

Mark

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Originally Posted by NervousNewbie
The Consumer Report study also used the self reporting methodology. By your stated criterion, it's not scientific either.

Which would apply to the studies you cited too, because the only way to judge such things is via self reporting.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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**edit**

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**edit**

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Originally Posted by Zelmo
And you cite a feeling, Zelmo. crazy I have much more faith in Dr Harleys expertise, backed up by studies than your feelings.

**edit**

Yes, he draws his conclusions from STUDIES. Not feelings.

Last edited by Fireproof; 02/16/10 12:46 PM. Reason: removing quote

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Here is a post written by Dr Harley about this subject of finding good research on the subject:

When I found that the model I've developed had helped over 90% of those I was counseling, I gave up my career as a college professor and started counseling full-time. At the time, I didn't assume that it would save all of the marriages it seemed to help, because I felt there were factors beyond a couple's control. But after 35 years of experience with this model, I'm not convinced that it works with 100% of couples who follow it. I've yet to witness one couple out of the tens of thousands I've seen, that did not experience a healthy and happy marriage by following this model. Personally, I feel it's the only answer to the question, how can a couple have a great marriage for life?

But it�s very difficult to prove that one model of marital satisfaction is superior to another. The ultimate test is to randomly assign couples to various models and to measure their marital satisfaction after the provisions of each model have been implemented.

The training of therapists is a huge problem: How can we be sure that the therapist assigned to each model was properly trained? And there�s also the problem of representation and random assignment: Does the group of volunteer couples represent the population at large? And is the assignment to treatment groups really random? There�s also the ethical problem of assigning couples to a control group where they receive no effective treatment. When they divorce, does the researcher bear any responsibility? Finally, if someone who has a stake in the outcome does the research, it usually shows that their approach is best. Shouldn�t studies of alternative models of marital satisfaction be conducted by those neutral to the outcome?

My own personal experience led me to the model I�ve been using for the past 35 years. But that�s not proof of it�s superiority over other models. What I need is objective studies conducted by those who have no bias that compare this model to others. That�s hard to find even among those who have published hundreds of articles on martial therapy.

But I can direct you to three studies that support my enthusiasm. They all deal with my book, His Needs, Her Needs, the popular application of my model, and the effect it has on couples that read it.

The readers of Marriage Partnership Magazine were asked which self-help book on marriage helped their marriages the most. In that survey, His Needs, Her Needs came out on top. I didn�t know that the survey was even being conducted, so when I called the editor after the results came in, I was curious to know more. He told me that it not only was the top choice, but it was far ahead of second place (Ron R. Lee. Best Books for a Better Marriage: Reader�s Survey . Marriage Partnership Magazine, Spring 1998).

In a national survey that I sponsored, people were asked if any self-help book on marriage solved their marital problems. Out of 57 books that were read, only three were reported to have actually solved marital problems. The three were the Bible, James Dobson�s Love for a Lifetime, and His Needs, Her Needs (Lynn Hanacek Gravel. Americans and Marriage: National Survey of US Adults. Barna Research Group, 2001).

Finally, five out of six couples that read His Needs Her Needs were found to experience significant improvement in marital satisfaction (Julie D. Braswell. The Impact of Reading a Self-Help Book on the Topic of Gender Differences on One�s Perceived Quality of Marriage. Doctoral Dissertation, 1998, Azusa Pacific University.

Granted, these findings are not conclusive evidence that the model I use is superior to every other model of marital satisfaction. But when you find one that works for every couple that actually follows it, you have to be impressed. And coming as I did from almost zero effectiveness to almost complete success, I can�t begin to tell you how convinced I am that it�s the solution to a very difficult problem we face in our society.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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**Edit**

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Originally Posted by black_raven
OH, did you inform your co-worker about MB yet? If she has marital problems, the name marrigebuilding.com should say a lot on it's own. You would not have to go into great detail or know the exact issue she is dealing with. Like Mel said, point out a few highlights. If you speak with her in person, I'd also send an email with the link or give her the website on a sticky as it is easy to forget stuff...especially since she has a lot on her mind.

My coworker is male which makes it a bit more awkward. And no, I haven't informed him. I'm trying to figure out how without it looking like I'm making a lot of assumptions that are none of my business.

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**edit**

Last edited by Fireproof; 02/16/10 12:37 PM. Reason: TOS = disrespectful
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First off, he did not cite "one study." That is the one I remember. But the publishing vehicle does not speak to the validity of the study. As a nutrition researcher myself, many "studies" that are in peer reviewed journals are there - not because of their merit - but because they are TAINTED with a prevailing bias.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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**edit**

Last edited by Fireproof; 02/16/10 12:36 PM. Reason: TOS - disrespectful
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If the co-worker made a general annoucement to the office about having marital problems and you have already offered support, I'm lost on why he would think you are making assumptions. dontknow It's not like you need to mention infidelity or anything. The site is more than just that.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Your true colors are just shining through today Zelmo!

Somebody Pis in your wheaties at breakfast or what?

Last edited by tst; 02/16/10 12:35 PM.




Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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**edit**

Last edited by Fireproof; 02/16/10 12:35 PM. Reason: TOS - disrespectful
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Originally Posted by black_raven
If the co-worker made a general annoucement to the office about having marital problems and you have already offered support, I'm lost on why he would think you are making assumptions. dontknow It's not like you need to mention infidelity or anything. The site is more than just that.

You're probably right B_R. I'm just feeling awkward. I was not in the meeting where the general announcement was made. I had to approach another co-worker to make sense of something that was said in the last meeting (basically thanking the people there for being such great people. I honestly thought someone had died and that's what the thanks were for..).

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Melody and/or tst....since this thread got so far hijacked, can you please come over to 101 and help out on the Valentine's thread?

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Please keep posts respectful and helpful to the OP! We are all guests here so some respect to the board owners would be appreciated. If this continues the thread will be locked.

Let's get back on topic!

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