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So is Krazy's anger and resentment only his to deal with? Or does his WW/XW bear some responsibility in healing?

Just as a WW may (not often) look to see if her BH really gets it, is really committed to meeting her needs, the same is true for a BH. He has to watch to see if the WW not only ends the affair, but does what Dr H calls provide just compensation.

It's not enough to say, "The affair is wrong, I can't believe I did that." What did she do to repair the damage? What did she do to help him heal?

Maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

If I understand this whole meeting needs and avoiding LB's thing, it's not just about self, and admitting when one has done wrong. It's also about stepping up and helping your spouse heal. It's about making it safe for your spouse to remain married to you.

Was Krazy angry? Yep. Did he have a lot in his past? Yep. Yet when one marries another person, you vow to be there for that person, past and all. And if you trigger something from that past, then you have to work extra hard at repairing the damage you've done.

Ending the affair is only the FIRST step.

It could be Krazy just couldn't let go of the anger. It could have been his XWW didn't do anything that effectively defused the anger she planted in his life.

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Are there any percentages or statistics on marriages that survive a WW who has continued contact 6 months after DDay, has repeatedly lied even in counseling sessions, and has stated to the OM that she terribly misses him and that he has been her best friend and kindred spirit through all of this?

I love my wife and kids, but am I just wasting my time thinking she will come back? What do the percentages say?


BH(Me)=40
WXW=38
ILYBNILWY: 8/09
DDAY: 8/31/09
Two boys: 8,7
Divorced 3/23/2011

Don't let your eyes refuse to see. Don't let your ears refuse to hear. Or you ain't never gonna shake this sense of sadness. --Ray Lamontagne
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Originally Posted by SDCW_man
3. The exposure potential is not very �target rich�.
If OP�s career/job can�t be jeopardized, if OP is unmarried or already divorcing, if family members �go along� or are detached, you don�t have much pressure to bring to bear on breaking the affair.
Had this.
WW was living with OM and his parent's. They encouraged her to, went with her to, and paid for her to file for divorce.
OM's job was a joke.
And WW's family were initialy in the "What ever makes you happy" camp

Originally Posted by SDCW_man
4. Your WS is clearly emotionally-addicted to the OP.
The more irrational, fantasy-driven, scapegoating-towards-you, and defending-the-OP your WS is, the more deeply he/she is addicted. They are illogically and powerfully attached to the OP. You are, at the very least, looking at a looooong road.
Got that.
OM was soulmate, meant to be, never happier, finley found what she was missing, and I was the devil.

Originally Posted by SDCW_man
5. (get ready, this may be controversial) Your WS is � a WW!
[i]Unless you catch the relationship in its infancy (rare), she will be heavily-addicted. She won�t give her OM up voluntarily (much more rare for a WW than a WH). The only realistic hope is to get him to dump her via exposure pressure that threatens something more important to him than her (career, finances, his marriage/kids). If #3 is present, you are hosed. I have seen many, many emotionally-addicted, active WW affairs both here on MB and in real life and I can tell you it is vanishingly rare to break the affair and save the marriage unless the OM dumps the WW in fairly short order. The usual result, like with Krazy, MissMyFamily, PSUBIKER, and myself, is that the WW is a �not-worth-it-lost-cause� who stays tightly glued to her lover, no matter what the sacrifice and how big a slimeball-loser the guy is. Think hard about it, BHs, cuz divorce is basically just Plan B without the added pain of (a likely futile) prolonged disappointment-limbo.[/i
I agree, wayward wives that are emotionally attached are way, Way, WAY harder and less likely to ever even consider returning to the marriage.

Still, my wife left OM. With OM asking, begging, and pleading for her not to.

Yea, she was insanely fogged out for 6 months, and decreasingly foggy for the next year after that.

So it CAN happen.
But I agree, It is much rarer for a WW to leave OM, than BH to leave OW.




Me 34
WW 30
Abandoned Feb 17th 08, D-Day Aprl 27th 08.
Returned home Jul 7th, OC born 12/30/08
The FOG is clear, and we are in recovery.
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by schtoop
I am at the point of seriously considering cutting my losses.

schtoop, this is the danger of threads like this, it dashes the hopes of perfectly viable marriages that might have made it if they tried. Sure, some don't, but MANY DO. There are many recovered marriages on this board where the wife was the WS. You could be one of them, but you won't be if you give up before you try.

Secondly, I want to echo Pepperband, imanotherone, and penaltykill about Krazy's marriage. His marriage is ending, not because his wife wouldn't get on board, BUT BECAUSE HE CANNOT GET OVER HIS RESENTMENT. His wife ended her affair and did her best to commit to rebuilding. Krazy could not overcome his resentment. SOME CANNOT and that does not mean they are at fault, it just is what it is.

PK, I am glad that you took the time to post here. These newly BH�s need to see that there is hope.

He doesn't have to give up, but he may need to change plans. If she's still lying to him, still sneaking phones, etc, maybe it's time for plan B.

I know, Dr H recommends 6 months for BH and a much shorter time for BW. The problem is, if she continues to cake eat, she'll become more attracted to the OM and less to her H.

So I'm not saying end the marriage. I'm saying move to plan B much quicker. If she's not willing to end her affair after being put out by her BH, then she's not a safe spouse.

So I'd recommend getting the documentation, and if his state has divorce for cause, file for divorce stating she is being unfaithful. Have her put out of the house, she can be an EOW mom, and some 3rd party can handle any child issues.

She can pay CS and be a part time parent if the affair is that important.

It doesn't mean he has to allow the divorce to go final. But it does send a clear message that he will not share his wife with another, so if she wants to be his wife, she'll have to prove she is a trustworthy partner.

Perhaps when being serviced the WW can receive the MB phone number with a note saying if you don't want to divorce, call these people and do everything they say. When they say you are a safe wife, we'll talk.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So is Krazy's anger and resentment only his to deal with? Or does his WW/XW bear some responsibility in healing?


Was Krazy angry? Yep. Did he have a lot in his past? Yep. Yet when one marries another person, you vow to be there for that person, past and all. And if you trigger something from that past, then you have to work extra hard at repairing the damage you've done.

Ending the affair is only the FIRST step.

It could be Krazy just couldn't let go of the anger. It could have been his XWW didn't do anything that effectively defused the anger she planted in his life.

Krazy's own posts indicate that his WW was doing something. I don't think she planted anger in his life. It sounds like Krazy has been angry for quite a while. How he chose to react to the A was his decision. Sure, there's going to be anger. Pain, rage, the whole nine yards. But at some point the BS has to make a decision that has to come from within: Accept and recover from what happened. Or leave. There's no one-size-fits-all, so it was within his right to decide that R was not where he wanted to be. Choosing to remain in a state of anger seems unproductive for him, now that he has made this decision.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
[He doesn't have to give up, but he may need to change plans. If she's still lying to him, still sneaking phones, etc, maybe it's time for plan B.

I agree a change of plans is in order. But he has not taken our advice on this. He is doing his own plan.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Gack1
[I agree, wayward wives that are emotionally attached are way, Way, WAY harder and less likely to ever even consider returning to the marriage.

I don't think you guys understand the RULE is that the WW is emotionally attached. They are so emotionally attached that they are ADDICTED. That is the rule, rather than the exception. It is the very rare exception of a woman who hops in bed to violate her vows when she is not emotionally attached. That would decsribe the vast majority of the recovered marriages with WW's on this board in my experience. Few women are sexually motivated.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by SDCW_man
Originally Posted by Krazy71
I understand this won't be a popular opinion on this particular board, but sometimes I'll read a few topics and shake my head in disbelief. This is only my opinion, and I wish I would've taken my own advice years earlier.

How should you deal with your spouse's affair(s)? You should divorce them asap. Period. No second chances, regardless of finances, kids, etc...

�Dump them. I walked out on my ex after trying for 3 years to get over what she did to me. It was the best move I've made in my entire life. She doesn't deserve me, and your WS/FWS doesn't deserve you, and never will.

I would like to lend some qualified support to Krazy�s commentary above. Yes, his analysis may seem harsh, rigid, and even contrary to MB�s purpose (and it some respects all of that is true).

Before I continue, let me state the following caveats for the record:
1. I have tremendous respect for the work and insights of Dr. Harley.
2. I have tremendous admiration for all the good people here who dispense excellent advice based on MB principles.
3. I congratulate and salute all those here, former-WSs included, who did the hard work and recovered improved, healthy marriages after the tragedy of an affair.
4. I fully believe that Dr. Harley�s plans and techniques are the best way to accomplish the above�if the BS wants that and if the appropriate conditions present themselves.

I totally agree with Krazy as well. It is not what i did nor what i probably will do, but i agree with him entirely. I also agree with the above post.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So is Krazy's anger and resentment only his to deal with? Or does his WW/XW bear some responsibility in healing?

YES, and she was taking that responsibility. She tried to heal the marriage. In Krazy's own words:

Originally Posted by Krazy
She has done nearly everything right since, and we are working on R.


Quote:So how does she feel about adultery now?

She really hates it. She despises what she did. She went out and bought "Not Just Friends" on her own, and read it. She cringes when infidelity is mentioned on TV or in movies, just like I do.

She can't believe what type of person she had become.


Quote:After re-reading my own post, I can't help but wonder if at least some of my anger is unresolved anger from my childhood. My mom started the cheating...my father knocked her up WHILE SHE WAS STILL MARRIED TO HER 1ST HUSBAND. She then divorced him and married my dad. Charming, isn't it?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Well, guess it is time for me to put in my two cents worth.

I didn't make it. I'm divorced. It was four years before I gave up. Well, maybe not that long. Actually it was three years before I quit trying so hard.

I suffered the indignity of watching my XWW go through withdrawals over the OM.

I watched her virtually spit on him a year or so ago when he came slithering along to see which way the wind was blowing these days.

I watched as my XWW made TWO (2) bad decisions for romance after we split up. I was sad but not surprised.

My honor is intact. Is her's?

Honestly, there were other factors leading to the divorce, not just the adultery.

Does all that make me unqualified to offer help and advice here?

Does all that make me an inferior person, a second class poster?

Does all that make me a bitter person? I can only answer this one.

I believe there is hope for everyone who doesn't give up. I preach that hope with every post I make. I get it, or at least I think I do.

And sometimes, to be honest, not everyone understands where I am going with some of my posts. I do, every time, or I don't post.

Sorry for all the "I's."

Larry

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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So is Krazy's anger and resentment only his to deal with? Or does his WW/XW bear some responsibility in healing?


Was Krazy angry? Yep. Did he have a lot in his past? Yep. Yet when one marries another person, you vow to be there for that person, past and all. And if you trigger something from that past, then you have to work extra hard at repairing the damage you've done.

Ending the affair is only the FIRST step.

It could be Krazy just couldn't let go of the anger. It could have been his XWW didn't do anything that effectively defused the anger she planted in his life.

Krazy's own posts indicate that his WW was doing something. I don't think she planted anger in his life. It sounds like Krazy has been angry for quite a while. How he chose to react to the A was his decision. Sure, there's going to be anger. Pain, rage, the whole nine yards. But at some point the BS has to make a decision that has to come from within: Accept and recover from what happened. Or leave. There's no one-size-fits-all, so it was within his right to decide that R was not where he wanted to be. Choosing to remain in a state of anger seems unproductive for him, now that he has made this decision.

Right or wrong, folks make decisions based on what think is a rational basis. A WW choose the OM because she believes he will do a better job of meeting her needs than her BH. (And by shutting out her BH as Dr H and other have said they do, they make sure that this comes true. In many places Dr H has said WW allow their BH's to meet few needs, if any.)

So wouldn't Krazy decide the same way. After three years, he came to the conclusion that his anger was not going to get better with his wife around.

We can only speculate as to why, in either direction. Those speculating that he didn't resolve his anger are still speculating. The same would be true if anyone was seriously suggesting that she was doing little to help resolve that anger.

What we can reasonably surmise is that Krazy did not perceive the situation would get better, so he chose divorce.

Now we can speculate on if it was his inability to address that anger, or her inability to provide just compensation for the affair and it's damage.

As I said in another thread, an affair is like an earthquake in an ocean. It creates a tsunami that may take some time to play out, and it does a great deal of damage long after the affair is over.

One cannot discount the long term damage Krazy's wife did with her earth shattering affair. Perhaps it took three years of that damaging wave before Krazy said enough.

We really don't know.

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My post was stated as an opinion. Paragraph one, sentence two.

I did not berate or disrespect anyone. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you've been disrespected.

I'm not angry at all these days. Divorce, for me, has been a blessing.



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Quote
And, any BS who claims to have done the MB process and is happily married after their spouse's infidelity.......

Well, they are either a fool, or a liar (or both) and their claims are nothing but self denial ... or they are simply lucky, like a dumb lottery winner.


This is me to a T

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I'm

PROUD OF IT




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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So is Krazy's anger and resentment only his to deal with? Or does his WW/XW bear some responsibility in healing?

YES, and she was taking that responsibility. She tried to heal the marriage. In Krazy's own words:

Originally Posted by Krazy
She has done nearly everything right since, and we are working on R.


Quote:So how does she feel about adultery now?

She really hates it. She despises what she did. She went out and bought "Not Just Friends" on her own, and read it. She cringes when infidelity is mentioned on TV or in movies, just like I do.

She can't believe what type of person she had become.


Quote:After re-reading my own post, I can't help but wonder if at least some of my anger is unresolved anger from my childhood. My mom started the cheating...my father knocked her up WHILE SHE WAS STILL MARRIED TO HER 1ST HUSBAND. She then divorced him and married my dad. Charming, isn't it?

So she, knowing that he experienced that in his life decided an affair was her best course of action.

I guess my problem with all of this is that folks appear to be defending MB, instead of focusing on the damage her affair apparently did.

Even in the face of her doing everything right, according to Krazy, even that wasn't enough to save the marriage.

Why? She had broken trust.

I still wonder if he would STILL say she did everything right. After all, if she was building trust, why would he think that his best course of action was to divorce?

Time alters perspectives, and perhaps after three years, he realized that she wasn't doing everything right.

Maybe he just thought he choose badly and used his get out of jail for free card, citing her affair.

Who really knows.

But folks generally don't divorce folks who they think are meeting their needs and providing extra-ordinary protections for the marriage.

Or maybe, if we are going to speculate, Krazy didn't think it was fair for her to suffer his anger, so he let her go.

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Ok, so you stated that it was an opinion, and then "in your opinion" began to take potshots at everyone who, in your view, only claims to have a recovered marriage?

Everyone, including Pep, who knows how to needlepoint???

BS's, do not give up on hope, or discount the power of God. There may be a time and place for some of you to walk away, and that' a valid choice. Just don't give up easily on the basis of a few despairing posters.

God wants to give hope and healing during and after adultery, and often is able to reach even hardened and apparently hopeless WS's. Be at peace, no matter the storm. Submit to God's leading, and you'll know if/when you've come to the right tim to walk away.

Chances are, it's not yet.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Originally Posted by _Larry_
onestly, there were other factors leading to the divorce, not just the adultery.

Does all that make me unqualified to offer help and advice here?

Of course it doesnt. But you don't come here and tell others there is no hope when there is and try to discourage them from trying. That is CRIMINAL, IMO. You try to help people save their marriages, even though yours didn't make it.

You don't try to spread the misery.

The bottom line is that there is nothing that offers a 100% guarantee except death and taxes. Do we only do things that are EASY or come with a 100% guarantee? If that is the case, then we would do nothing. If we only did things that came with a 100% guarantee, we would NEVER improve, never grow. I wouldn�t be celebrating 25 years of sobriety on April 27th, I wouldn�t be smoke free for 13 years this October, I would be fat as a cow because, after all, there is no 100% guarantee for diet and exercise! Other people fail on diets all the time! So why try?

When I want something in life, I don�t seek out those who failed, I seek out those who SUCCEEDED and ask them how they did it. If I want to save my marriage, I will seek out those who did that successfully. If I decide to end my marriage, I will seek out those who divorced and moved onto a happy, productive life.

But I would NEVER hang around someone who was insistent on telling me how to FAIL at my goal. That is insane. Stick to people who can tell you how it can BE DONE, not how it cannot be done.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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What's with all the speculation? What's the point?

I've tried recovering a marriage after infidelity, and I've experienced divorce.

IN MY OPINION, most people would be better off going straight to Plan D.

Did I mention this was my opinion?


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BTW, I'm not despairing, nor does divorce automatically equal misery.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by schtoop
I am at the point of seriously considering cutting my losses.

schtoop, this is the danger of threads like this, it dashes the hopes of perfectly viable marriages that might have made it if they tried. Sure, some don't, but MANY DO. There are many recovered marriages on this board where the wife was the WS. You could be one of them, but you won't be if you give up before you try.

Secondly, I want to echo Pepperband, imanotherone, and penaltykill about Krazy's marriage. His marriage is ending, not because his wife wouldn't get on board, BUT BECAUSE HE CANNOT GET OVER HIS RESENTMENT. His wife ended her affair and did her best to commit to rebuilding. Krazy could not overcome his resentment. SOME CANNOT and that does not mean they are at fault, it just is what it is.

PK, I am glad that you took the time to post here. These newly BH�s need to see that there is hope.

The point of the thread notwithstanding, ML...I read Schtoop's post as utter frustration with his WW refusing to go along with a plan for recovery. She has now..twice? three times? gone behind Schtoop's back and contacted OM. I don't blame him for having second thoughts. Perhaps if he had posted this on his own thread rather than here, it would have stood out for what it is: viable and understandable doubts about the recovery of his marriage. Only he can make that decision of course, but if he's really given it his all, and just can not get her to commit, I wouldn't blame him for cutting his losses sooner rather than later. How many times can you allow yourself to be abused before you say "enough!"

Caveat: I've not read Schtoop's whole thread so I don't know where he is in the process. I'm guessing that he hasn't gone Plan B yet and perhaps that is the next logical step here.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So she, knowing that he experienced that in his life decided an affair was her best course of action.

I guess my problem with all of this is that folks appear to be defending MB, instead of focusing on the damage her affair apparently did.

Even in the face of her doing everything right, according to Krazy, even that wasn't enough to save the marriage.

Why? She had broken trust.

Of course she is at fault. He is not resentful because of his own fault, he is resentful because of her affair. No one denies that. The point is that she did TRY. That differentiates his experience from those that never do. It can�t be said that she didn�t try.

And don�t get me wrong, I am not blaming Krazy for leaving the marriage. That was the right thing to do since he couldn�t overcome his resentment.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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