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I'm stuck, or I think I am, sorta, maybe ...... MrRollieEyes

We've come a long ways in restoring our M back to new and healthier one, not without some hardships, but then I guess that's a given.
Despite those hardships, we've been able to get back on track.

I believe that my H regrets the lies, the secret life, the A and the damage that this has caused to our family.
I've seen it in his face, that pain and shame.
I see it with his willingness learn and follow MB philosophies. When he messes up, he's willing to seek further guidance.

Hmm, so what's the problem, right?

I grabbed this from Lil's thread. The word in my head for this thread is repentance and I think this fits just right with how to explain my thinking. link to thread Thanks Lil!

The seeds falling on the rocks represent those who hear the word,
but only accept it shallowly and reject it as soon as it causes them hardship

These people want to cherry pick the programme. �I'll use Radical Honesty except for the bit where I tell my spouse about my affair�,
�I'll POJA � but on my terms�, � I want my spouse to stop LBing me and fill my EN's, but I want them to love me as I am�,
and their rocks are the justification they use for their infidelity.


The bolded parts, (mine) explain perfectly what I think is the problem that we are facing now.
He's unable to look in that mirror of why he had an A, it causes him too much hardship.

In one breath he voices feelings that make me believe that he is remorseful,
if he keeps talking ....... it changes to reasons that were in the M. His lack of EN's being met.
It kills me to listen to this, and my H will say 'I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just being honest with my feelings'

The biggest struggles that we've had during R on his side, I believe are related to this lack of self honesty about himself. Maybe.


During the hottest part of summer, you can see paddocks with brown spots in them.
While it could be insect infestation, it is often a large rock just under the surface.
As the rock heats up, the shallow soil about it dries up and the plants die due to the lack of moisture.
To rectify the situation the farmer needs to remove the rock before planting.
Sure the farmer could bury it deeper or even water more, but the problem wont go away,
the damage will still be done, just slower,
and an awful lot of work will just go to waste.

'Rock' waywards need to have the rocks in their live dug up and removed,.
They need to understand MB is an all or nothing programme.
You only get out what you put in and if your not willing to commit to NC and UA,
and take responsibility for 50% of the marriage AND 100% in the decision to have an affair,
then kiss the marriage good bye, and enjoy that justification on those long lonely nights.


My H has said ' I don't like to think '. When faced with an emotional challenge,
his solution is to walk away from it, go do something to take his mind off of it.
He has made strides with emotional RH, I just don't see the repentance there that I need to exist.

Right now, he's a great H that I love and believe in, but he's not someone that I feel is not a threat to me in the future.
This is a tough issue to face for me, since I allowed him to hurt me as a wife for many years, and I still stuck around.

So my questions are ........ is this something that I have any influence over,
am I not doing something good enough,
what are the chances of him ever looking in that mirror and seeing his core, is it too soon to expect what I'm looking for?

All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! smile

p.s. I'm in and out of the house on my days home, so I'm apologizing now for not responding in a timely fashion. kiss


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Vit,

I certainly don't have any answers to this and to be quite honest, I am struggling with the same issue, and a few other serious flaws in H myself. I am curious to what the others have to say about this.......I also wonder if this is an issue that comes up in the second year of recovery..... sigh

Just when you think you can't think no more.....

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Hi Vitt and Not

I often wonder about my own repentance and how it reflects, so I am interested in both of your views and thoughts that you don't quite have it from your Hs. Also beig in the 2nd year of recovery.

Originally Posted by wiki
Repentance is a change of thought and action to correct a wrong and gain forgiveness from a person who is wronged. In religious contexts it usually refers to confession to God, ceasing sin against God, and resolving to live according to religious law. It typically includes an admission of guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.

The things that let me know that I have changed my thoughts and actions are
1) I avoid going out on girly nights to town - in fact since dday I think I have done 2 or 3. 1 of them was just drinks and I left at 10, the others were meals and I left straight after.
- I invite friends over for nights in instead.
2) I really really cringe when my M'd friends talk about blokes chatting them up and let them know that i disapprove.

These 2 things are major major - because this is such a part of culture over here for my age group. And I am still taken aback by how much my opinion on this behaviour has changed.

Can you point to specifics in your lives which lead you to feel there is a lack of repentance?

Would my change in beliefs and actions as detailed above be enough for repentance?

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Hey Not, you have no idea how relieved I am that you are struggling with this too.
I'm glad you posted what you did, it's easy to feel like you aren't doing something right or if there is not true repentance within a year, the M is doomed.

Brings about another question of, what is enough repentance and is this individual to the BS????


ST, I looked up repentance and remorse also, both seemed to be interchangeable and both used the word regret to explain the definition.
By that definition, my H would pass.

Like you ST, my H can enforce his EP's, this is better lately since he is understanding how being thoughtless with these, affects me.
Like you, his view on loose boundaries has tightened up and he sees the danger.

Specifics for my H where I see a lack of repentance is not seeing that no matter what was wrong in our M, he had no right to have an A.
It's so disheartening for him to start with remorseful words, and end with foggy or blameshifting crap.

Another specific is, and this is what has brought all of this to the surface again,
he is reluctant to apologize to our kids and family. While he admits that they are owed one and understands how therapeutic for him it would be ..... he's stuck on himself feeling 'awkward'. His word.

Does J feel that you are repentant for your A?

Do you protect J with all of your might, not only because that is what you are suppose to do, but because you want to repair the horrific damage that you caused?

Do you blame any of your choice to have an A on your M? This to me is the big one, that requires deep honesty.


Feel free and most welcome to thread jack with your own thoughts. I'm not crazy about having a thread where I feel obligated to get back to, since I just don't have the time.
Another way to put that is this, if I don't get done what I'm suppose to get done, huge LB's to my family. LOL.

Carry on, we all learn from each other.


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I am 20 months into recovery, 2 years past d-day.

I think it's a bit like N2F said on another thread - this is about when we start taking inventory. We're more or less satisfied that the OP is now out of the picture. We are feeling more comfortable with our FWS, and less like the marriage is 'work'. We're prolly not obsessing about LB's, EN's, and UA because we've got it more or less sussed.

Now we review what we feel we've put into the recovery and maybe there some giver and taker involved, we're feeling things are not entirely even. Even if they were there's that little bit that says "I gave my everything for you, I sacrificed alot just to make you love me" Heck for a little while I thought to myself "I sold my soul in plan A". Don't worry, I am over that one smile

So, we have done all this hard work and soul searching, and giving and thinking about the M for so long.... now when is FWS going to step up and give us the same. When is FWS going to carry the burden of the M and put us on a pedestal and love us body and soul and......

They don't.

I really admire Tst and the like on this board BUT I believe they are not the norm for FWS. Maybe because they don't regularly write on a public forum (if ever) you dont get to see/hear whats going on in your FWS's heart of hearts. I know I have to prod Flick every once in a while just to get him to talk about the A. Often what he has to say is less than fulfilling for me. He certainly does not volunteer any info about his thoughts on the A, on PQ, on me. So I have to rely on the poked titbits and I have to say over 20 months, the titbits don't add up to much grumble

Summarising what I have got is that: He believes I love him no question, in entirety, without reservation. I will never have an A because I am so very committed to the M. I will never leave him because of the same. He now feels bad about how skinny I got during the A. Bad that I started smoking again. He had to dig deep to find an OP as low as PQ. Men lose their houses because they're bad husbands. He is ashamed of his affair. He believes DD18 going of the rails was his fault.

Actual things he has done in the way of recompense: wrote apology letter's to DD18, DD13, my mum, dad, sister and brother. Replaced mattress even tho he says they were never on it. Bought me a new ring. Totally O&H if I ask it (but again, doesn't tend to volunteer it)

Things not done: explained to his mum and sister in my hearing that the A is not my fault, leaving me feeling they still believe whatever nasty things he said about me during the A which he now 'cant remember' skeptical Dumped a hotmail addy PQ knows about. Answered all my questions to my satisfaction because he cannot remember the events.

I guess I wanted a FWS like L4, however, I got Flick. He's a marked improvement on pre A Flick, he is not now or ever, L4 or Tst or any of those other totally OUTSPOKEN and remorseful FWS, he's Flick with things in his head he doesnt share.

So, anyway going back to the rocks analogy, yes I do think our FWS have some rocks and I think that they would like to bury them. They would like us to stop bringing up the A because they do actually feel stink about what they did. What we have to decide is how important to US, that they get dug up. Honestly there is stuff I just let slide because it's not that important to me, other things are. Shoot, Flick has not and prolly will never even read that sermon, let alone apply it to himself TEEF
I also think that FWS can move along those stages..path to rocks, to thorns. I am thinking it might takes years. The vets on MB that are still posting AND declaring their satisfaction with their marriages have sig lines with "recovery for 7 years, 9 years, 15 years!"

Sorry for the lengthy post. I need a life blush


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Originally Posted by Lil
I know I have to prod Flick every once in a while just to get him to talk about the A.
I can somewhat relate to this. I do have flashbacks of my A, and those thoughts are 100% negative. I just shake my head and call myself an idiot and the thought goes. As a man, I think we can compartmentalize the A and all the negative ramifications that it produced. In a way, the memories of the facts seem to evade me too.

My W rarely mentions it, but when she does it is a strain to drag all those memories and feelings from the back of my brain to the forefront again. That in no way is a reflection of minimizing my actions whatsoever.

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Lil, there's a lot in your post that I can relate to feeling.

Taking inventory .... yup, is this good or bad, are we looking for flaws cuz we are still scared of the future, IDK.

Things are not entirely even ..... yup, am I set on just being more right than him, IDK.
I think I am more right than him.

We have done all this hard work and soul searching ..... yup, and my H has done a lot of work, more than what other WS's have done, from reading here.
I want him to do heavy soul searching. Without it, LB's are still hinged on.

This last part just made me think. With continued RH about LB's, might this eventually get through someone's head how damaging the A was??
Might they see as their behaviour changes, how horrible their behaviour was during the A?
Kinda like when you have the flu, after you feel better, you realize how sick you really felt.

As far as talking about the A, before last week, I can't remember when we last had a discussion on it. I stay away from dwelling on past mistakes.
When he started to talk about when it began, I thought of a post from SB. She said just let them go on like telling a story, and listen. (this was really hard btw, but I did it).
This is when I heard what I consider, fog.

My H can't remember certain things either. He also doesn't see the years of the EA as significant as the night that the A went PA.
He says that is more damaging in his head than the years of him having a secret friend, you know, someone to talk to. (insert pukey thing here please)

I know, we have to decide what it is that we want in our M. Right now, I want to know that those rocks will be picked. (kinda funny since it will be rock picking time around here soon!)

And yes ..... I want a 'tst' FWH too.

ST, I hope this is all helpful to you, in sort of a reverse way maybe???


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Originally Posted by ImStaying
My W rarely mentions it, but when she does it is a strain to drag all those memories and feelings from the back of my brain to the forefront again. That in no way is a reflection of minimizing my actions whatsoever.
See, to me, in my head, when you bury something, you want it to go away.

If you want it to go away, you don't want to deal with it.

If you don't want to deal with it, it's not important.

If it's not important, then what it did to me, is not important, or important enough.

So, is this my struggle, I over think it???? IDK.

My H says I think too much. lol

Thank you for this though, this is what I believe my H does too.


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No, you are not over thinking. Your thoughts are very rational. But I would just add that men are wired differently than women. In John Gray (Mars / Venus) terms, women just want their feelings acknowledged; men just want to work on solutions. In a very over simplified way, that sounds like it might play a part in what is happening here. On a deeper level though, you don't feel totally safe. That is a feeling that he will need to acknowledge before you have a fully recovered M.


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V,

At the two year and change mark I wrote this in my Musings thread:

The Affair Tree Part 1

The Affair Tree Part 2

I was thinking about this story a few days ago as I worked at trying to dig out and get rid of the last of the roots of the tree. A few still remain to be dealt with but the majority have been dug up and burned. Before long, all traces of the tree should be gone and then all I have to do is keep the grass watered and it should grow just fine.

The roots of the affair are pretty much gone as well. A few things still remain that I think should be dealt with but none of those things hinder the look of the landscape in our marriage much any more. Just like the tree is gone and you can only find the remains if you know where to dig and actually attempt to lay those remains bare, the only issues related to the affair have to be uncovered and made to show themselves by pretty extreme means before they appear at all.

It still would have been nice to have been rid of that stupid tree before it became such a problem, when it was small and not such a massive thing to deal with, but unless you know where to look, it is no longer there and hasn't cast a shadow in a long time now.

It would be nice if she was still a size 4, still wearing clothes that made her look great and was willing to drop everything to join me for whatever activity I could dream up, but of course I don't really do that for her anymore, though we spend a lot more time together and neither of us spends as much time pursuing individual stuff that excludes the other for any reason. The way people do that sort of stuff during an affair is really a sign of not being responsible in a lot of ways and life can't really revolve around each other 24/7 when you have jobs and family and commitments to others.

About the only time the affair is even in my active memories is when I discuss it here and the roots are only an ongoing project that get dealt with when we have time to do it without taking away from the life we now have together.

Now if I can just get the stupid dog to quit digging holes all over the yard, I might be able to have a real lawn...

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Originally Posted by Vittoria
Right now, he's a great H that I love and believe in, but he's not someone that I feel is not a threat to me in the future.

Vit, this is what makes recovery so hard.
I�ve heard Pepperband say it so many times� �Recovery ain�t for wimps!� It really is hard work!

SMB struggles with this same thing. She doesn�t say it out loud much at all anymore, but I can see it on her face when she�s thinking it.

I think SMB has a healthy balance of both accepting our marriage as it is today and knowing it is OK to still morn the loss of an untainted M as well.

As far as a threat in the future�.. This is tough and it�s the reason I�m so passionate about EP�s. The EP�s are the only way to truly secure a wayward mindset of IB and move them to a position of protecting the marriage. If a FWS doesn�t have these written out it is doubly hard for the BS to feel any safety at all. And if a FWS doesn�t maintain these EP�s for life, the BS shouldn�t feel safe at all.



Originally Posted by Vittoria
So my questions are ........ is this something that I have any influence over,
am I not doing something good enough,
what are the chances of him ever looking in that mirror and seeing his core, is it too soon to expect what I'm looking for?

Will the MB program lead to repentance?? When I think about this I would say, YES! But for most, only with time. MB is designed to change behavior, but I think as the behavior changes so should the attitudes and beliefs�.. Keep in mind that these changes happen sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly.

As for your FWH being like tst�. That would be a bad idea, because you probably wouldn�t be able to stand being around a big ole� PITA like me!





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Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted by lildoggie
there's that little bit that says "I gave my everything for you, I sacrificed alot just to make you love me" Heck for a little while I thought to myself "I sold my soul in plan A".
sigh......I never felt that way about Plan A, but I pretty sure I sold it in early Recovery. I KNOW my giver was running amuck.....and I'm not sure I can live with that....
Quote
He now feels bad about how skinny I got during the A.
I know Mr. Not doesnt feel bad about that......but thats okay, cuz i dont either. Heck, now that i have to watch what i eat and excercise, some days....well lets just say the affair diet was easier.....
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Bad that I started smoking again.

Not sure I want to go there......I'm STILL struggling with this issue....... sigh

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Originally Posted by Vittoria
I'm glad you posted what you did, it's easy to feel like you aren't doing something right or if there is not true repentance within a year, the M is doomed.
Well honestly, you'll have to thank Lil.....she wanted an update on me in her thread, so it was already there when you posted this. Since I've been struggling, I figured I needed to jump on board. .....and I have to admit, that with this struggle in the M, I wonder if I'm being a phony when I post to newbies when my marriage isn't the picture perfect Recovery I would like.......
Quote
Brings about another question of, what is enough repentance and is this individual to the BS???

Interersting question......there was a link to this website on here not too long ago. It has a article on the difference between Guilt and Remorse.......www.Survivingbetrayal.com......

When I read it, it broke my heart, because I KNOW which one Mr. Not falls under......

Of course, then I wonder if that's a DJ.....(see, you aren't the only one who can over-think things..... :D)

This will be an interesting thread.....thanks Vit for starting it.......

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Originally Posted by Mark1952
At the two year and change mark I wrote this in my Musings thread:

The Affair Tree Part 1
I've just finished reading the first link. The analogy is perfect.

The further I got through it, I could feel myself get angry inside.

I didn't ask for this tree, and I can't believe how much work is involved in getting rid of it.

" I have other things in my life and the tree is now only important enough to deal with a little bit at a time."

I'm feeling this way too. It's not like the roots are in my face all the time, I really do work hard at keeping them suckering up all over the place.

Onto Affair tree part 2 ......


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Originally Posted by Vittoria
Does J feel that you are repentant for your A?

Do you protect J with all of your might, not only because that is what you are suppose to do, but because you want to repair the horrific damage that you caused?

Do you blame any of your choice to have an A on your M? This to me is the big one, that requires deep honesty.

Interesting questions Vit, I protect the M and the family with all my might but I don't actually see the horrific damage I caused except to DS and to a lesser extent DD. But certainly I want to make sure my family is invincible and certainly not because that is what I'm s'posed to do. The rebuilding I feel driven to do is certainly because of the children's suffering.



I certainly don't blame my choice to have an A on the M - I am aware of all the events surrounding it. I have always been a firm believer that I create my own destiny and that I am in charge of my life (in total conflict with my sis who believes everything is mapped out). ie if I want something enough I can have it. the adjustment in me has come in reevaulating what is morally right for me to want. I wanted that escapism - I chose to have the A.

J does feel that I am repentant.


Is the amount of repentance necessary, in some way connected to the state of the pre-A M rather than the individual BS? (at the risk of being a bit contentious).

I'm not intending to T/J but I have to say that if my M was happy and I felt that my husband loved me - I wouldn't have been looking for someone to fill the voids.I wouldn't have had the A. If I had understood fully about M and boundaries and knew as much as I do now I wouldn't have done it.

They need to teach this stuff in schools.

Now, even when things are low and they were very low not so long ago - I don't look for someone else - I look to sort it with J and chat it through with female friends (usually ones met here). Always knowing in the back of my mind that the next option is Plan D and that me and the children will be just fine by ourselves

Feel free to take any 2x4s to my thread here .

Is this the type of foggy blameshifting crap that makes you feel disheartened?

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Originally Posted by Mark1952
Well, this one broke my heart. I've read bits and pieces of your W's A, never the whole story.

"Like that tree, many of the problems of our relationship over the years would have been much easier to solve if they had been dealt with when they were not so huge and had not grown so long. If we had dealt with each issue as it came up or had done what should have been done, if we had known of Marriage Builders years ago and had applied the methods found here to our relationship, the affair might never have happened. Today we wouldn’t have the need to dig so deeply into the past and attempt to remove those things that are now a twisted interconnected mass. Like that tree, we will be dealing with it for years or until one or the other of us simply runs out of energy."

I'm feeling fortunate at this moment, after reading your sitch. Anger to fortunate, I'd say that's pretty good!
I feel like this repentance that I'm wanting to see, is the last nail in the coffin, the biggest nail anyway. I'm sure there will be smaller ones come along, but not so disheartening like this one is.

Quote
The roots of the affair are pretty much gone as well. A few things still remain that I think should be dealt with but none of those things hinder the look of the landscape in our marriage much any more. Just like the tree is gone and you can only find the remains if you know where to dig and actually attempt to lay those remains bare, the only issues related to the affair have to be uncovered and made to show themselves by pretty extreme means before they appear at all.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Am I digging too soon, am I digging too far, am I digging for something that may not be there, ever?
Through MB, I have learned that there needs to be a change in mindset, not just actions, since one allows the other to be genuine.
This is how I interpret what I've learned anyway, and I believe it.

As frustrating as this is to come to terms with, I know that I can only control my mindset. I can remove the roots in my head that keep the suckers alive.
I hope you are saying that in time, as more of the smaller roots are rid of, the suckers (my issues) will not be so hindering to my own landscape.


Quote
About the only time the affair is even in my active memories is when I discuss it here and the roots are only an ongoing project that get dealt with when we have time to do it without taking away from the life we now have together.
And you know what Mark, I don't want to stagger our R with dwelling on this. I don't want this to replace our good time together.
This is the reason that we don't talk about the A, unless there is something left unfinished.
The last A related project, are the apologies.


I encourage any of you who are struggling with this to read those links and add your thoughts. I like to see other's perspectives, they help all of us! smile


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Originally Posted by ImStaying
On a deeper level though, you don't feel totally safe. That is a feeling that he will need to acknowledge before you have a fully recovered M.
You're right. Because I know that this 'normal' for BS's, I can accept this feeling of not safe. I also know that it should fade, and not grow, which it has to a point.

There is a lot of comfort in knowing the 'normals', helps to keep you focused on the end result.


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In order to really repent, I think most people have to feel like the injuries that they caused were intended. One can feel shame, sorrow, regret, etc. when injuries are "collateral damage", but most don't feel the need to be repentent.

I imagine that regardless of how much introspection that is done, the FWS is never going to feel like the injuries they caused were intended. The FWS will generally think that the BS was "caught in the cross fire" of the FWS's misguided search for happiness.

IMHO, I don't think MB can change this. In fact, I think the MB principles accept that this is the way it is. And it's principles, rather than compel repentance, seek to demonstrate that there is a path to happiness that doesn't create collateral damage.


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Can MB influence Repentance???

Interesting question...and I believe the answer is YES and I will tell you why.

We've had a really hard recovery, it's included FRs, very weak boundaries, knock-down, drag-out fights...it's been ugly.

Recently we've made turned another huge corner and we're on a fantastic path. Some good friends of ours are going through this as well and H and I are helping them...while it's been very hard for us to watch the hurt and pain they are experiencing, it's been very healing for us.

But even before this, I believe the true repentance began coming as *I* became better at meeting ENs and avoiding LBers...this deposited mucho amounts of LB deposits in H's LB. The longer I avoided LBers and met his needs, the more it's become crystal clear that his A was a huge mistake...and that his demonizing me during that time didn't make it TRUE.

This hasn't been easy...he was foggy for a very long time. I thought I was going to go crazy many, many times from the amount of fog spewing forth from my H.

Raising the bar high and HOLDING it there, while meeting ENs and avoiding LBers, standing firm on my boundaries WHILE being kind and loving has been crucial in getting us here, IMHO.

I cannot control my H...I can only control me. It took me a long time to figure that out and it was HARD to accept. I had to figure out a way to encourage my H to want to use all that MB has to offer, and what worked for us was for me to clean up MY side of the fence...to work the program on MY side. It's funny how that worked better than anything else I had tried. He Plan A's me now, probably better than at any other time in our M.

It's been a long road and we aren't finished yet...we still have healing to do. But at least now we can see the end of the tunnel...and we're excited. smile


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,058
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Originally Posted by Vit
As frustrating as this is to come to terms with, I know that I can only control my mindset. I can remove the roots in my head that keep the suckers alive.
I hope you are saying that in time, as more of the smaller roots are rid of, the suckers (my issues) will not be so hindering to my own landscape.

If the suckers are removed as they appear, and as the major sections of the roots are dealt with, there is less to feed the smaller roots and those often just simply dry up, begin to rot and vanish as if by magic. The parts that are exposed as weather causes them to come to the surface can be pretty easily ripped out and disposed of as they appear and the only things that remain after a while only cause a problem if you are actually digging for some other reason and run across the remains of the root system and just take care of the problems they cause when they show themselves.

Like the roots of the tree, the roots of the affair very often take care of themselves as time and decay cause them to disappear on their own. As the marriage becomes stronger, more MB based and happier for both of us, the resentment, entitlement, IB and those things that ran much deeper erode until their is not much left. Eventually, they will be gone entirely without ever having to dig them up.

Mark

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