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I think so too! He needs to take action instead of passively waiting to feel better. He isn't feeling better, he is feeling worse! Not to mention all the focus on me-me-me all the time.

I have a hard time seeing how understanding why he treats people badly will help him stop. He just needs to stop! Once he treats people better, they will respond, and he will feel better!

He thinks I am simplifying too much, but heck, it works for me in my life!


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
D-day 7-29
NC 8-17
OW and WH both fired from jobs
OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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If I were in your shoes, I would go to a Marriage Builders weekend. That way, you would both have daily access to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum. You are also assigned a marriage coach who contacts you weekly to guide your lessons. When someone is messing up, Dr Harley works them over. And he is a clinical psychologist.

It is an ACTION plan that sets goals and gets results. They don't mess around with any nonsense. They have an exceptional track record of success. That is how I would go if I were you. [my H and I went this route] You will start seeing immediate changes.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I will ask him to go. It seems expensive but so are months and months of therapy! Thanks for the suggestion.


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
D-day 7-29
NC 8-17
OW and WH both fired from jobs
OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
I have a hard time seeing how understanding why he treats people badly will help him stop. He just needs to stop! Once he treats people better, they will respond, and he will feel better!


Listen, my H used to have angry outbursts. They ended when Dr Harley told him to go to anger management classes and KNOCK IT OFF. That was back in 2007 and he STOPPED THAT DAY.

Who cares WHY he does that? He doesn't need to know that to stop. He needs to knock it off.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
I will ask him to go. It seems expensive but so are months and months of therapy! Thanks for the suggestion.


You will see results RIGHT AWAY. It is worth every penny. Others here who went are tst and SMB, Mr and MrsW, Vittoria, marriedforever, LousyGolfer; [just off the top of my head] we all have great marriages.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I occasionally visit a forum for people with bipolar disorder. I can't take going there very often. Most of it is a dissection of obsessive thoughts, detailing over and over what they all did while manic, and a lot of online crying. Now, sometimes I DO need a good cry, and I do need DH to hold me while I vent all the jumbled thoughts and feelings. But mostly I need to take my meds and put one foot in front of the other. That doesn't mean my pain or disease isn't real; but it means that I can't LIVE there.

I have a DH and two children. Waiting until I understand all of my feelings before I lift a finger to make THEIR lives better is not going to work. My kids will be grown and my marriage will be over. My kids and my M are PART of who I am, and any IC I have had better be concerned about them.

I hope your H will consider the MB weekend. I have never been, but I can imagine it would be just what the doctor ordered (no pun intended).

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I hope he will consider the MB weekend also. I see him just wallowing in his grief and sadness, and it doesn't get him or us anywhere. He is full of sorrow and sadness, and it's a negative downward spiral.

We know what his issues are, and while it is NOT fair that he underwent trauma, he is almost giving into it and letting it control him and our marriage and family. When I push to move forward, I am told that I don't understand. Maybe I don't; I didn't have those experiences. I have experienced betrayal (from him in the form of an A) so I have some understanding of what intimate betrayal feels like.


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
D-day 7-29
NC 8-17
OW and WH both fired from jobs
OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
I occasionally visit a forum for people with bipolar disorder. I can't take going there very often. Most of it is a dissection of obsessive thoughts, detailing over and over what they all did while manic, and a lot of online crying.


I can so relate to this. When my son was killed I was pushed into an online forum for grieving parents. I RAN FOR MY LIFE!! The devastation, the reliving of the trauma triggered me so bad that I knew I would be an emotional cripple if I stayed there.

I discovered years later that the people who stayed there were just as torn up and dysfunctional YEARS LATER as they were when it first happened. They are emotional cripples. My solution to the grief was to throw myself back into life and stop talking about it all the time.

In the book I recommended above, they cite studies that show that folks who participate in grief counseling,[for traumatic events] support groups, etc, actually DO WORSE than those who DON'T. They stay depressed and grief stricken much, much longer than those who have no counseling whatsoever.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I just found the book on ebay - like new condition and only $5 with shipping!

I wonder if my BAN support group is going to hinder my healing from my H's A? It feels so good to have people who understand, though!


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
D-day 7-29
NC 8-17
OW and WH both fired from jobs
OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
I hope he will consider the MB weekend also. I see him just wallowing in his grief and sadness, and it doesn't get him or us anywhere. He is full of sorrow and sadness, and it's a negative downward spiral.


I would suggest his IC is keeping him depressed just as Dr Harley said.

I would also point out that you underwent a WORSE TRAUMA when he had his affair. This affair was as psychologically traumatic as RAPE OR THE DEATH OF A CHILD. And he did that purposely to you. He ABUSED you and he needs to do something about the abuse he inflicted on you rather than wallowing around in self pity. What about YOUR GRIEF? Your trauma? What is he doing about that? check out this video and article: here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad

I wonder if my BAN support group is going to hinder my healing from my H's A? It feels so good to have people who understand, though!


It depends. If they sit around and waller in their pain and talk the problem to death, they probably won't be much help, but if they focus on solutions, it would be productive. I found the SAA forum very helpful, on the other hand, because they focus on solutions. In AA they don't sit around and yap about getting drunk or feel sorry for themselves, they talk about how to use the program and get better.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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The BAN group does focus on solutions and moving forward. We agreed when we started that it wouldn't be a husband or wife bashing group. We sometimes laugh at the crazy things we've done back when we found out, and also try to help new members who just found out. It's the usual advice - no contact, getting tested for STDs, exposure. Some of the members have a sexually addicted spouse and know of some 12 step programs locally. Others have referrals to good MCs, doctors if the new member wants or needs ADs. And, of course, those who have moved on to a better marriage and healed give hope to those of us who are working towards that goal.


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
D-day 7-29
NC 8-17
OW and WH both fired from jobs
OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
While is he listening to the MC also, I feel that the IC is not a friend of our marriage.


I don't understand why such anti-social, anti-civilization, anti-marriage psychopaths are allowed to be counselors.

I really don't understand how anyone with this mindset could be a counselor. Keeping one's wedding vows are not optional!

I also don't understand why a husband or wife who goes to a counselor, individually or together, wouldn't immediately kick to the curb any counselor who talked like this. Before seeing Steve Harley for telephone marriage coaching, my wife and I saw three marriage counselors. That was always my first test with them: if any of them had suggested we end the marriage, I would have never come back. One of them came very, very close to suggesting that I needed to end the marriage, and then hid in a cloud of psychobabble and feigned innocence saying she hadn't suggested anything and revealing that she really didn't know what "decision" she was talking about when she told me I had to make a decision. We quit seeing her very shortly thereafter.

I am GLAD that I do not understand these people, and I hope I stay that way for the rest of my life. Everybody should understand that these attitudes are not normal and are anti-civilization!

Last edited by markos; 04/26/10 10:23 AM.

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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I hate to tell you, but mainstream clinical psychology and individual counseling is predicated on individual happiness, and even the latest methods, such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, are directly evolved from Freudian and Jungian psychoanalysis of childhood trauma.

Dr. Harley's approach is outside the mainstream because is focused on the marriage, and subordinates the individual to the marriage. It also deals with the present, by taking action on cognitive awareness of what you are doing in the present - stop doing the bad things and do more good things. Happiness will come from being happily married and feeling loved, not from self-indulgent diversions or blaming your parents, teachers and siblings for being the source of your bad feelings, bad beliefs, bad attitude, and bad behavior.

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Originally Posted By: TheAntiChick
I will chime in with one kind of IC that *does* IMHO tend to help, if applied correctly. It's called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or CBT. The "bible" of this kind of therapy is The Feeling Good Handbook by Dr. David Burns. But as ML has said, I think the reason it works is because while it acknowledges past issues as real, it doesn't focus on them. It focuses on changing current thought processes and behaviours.

If your H's therapist isn't doing CBT work with him, I agree it'll just be more of the same on and on. IMHO, CBT can and does work well with MB. You might see if he's willing to switch to a CBT IC for his personal issues. They deal with PTSD and anxiety issues very well.


disgustedandsad,

I agree with TACs post above and I am experiencing it now.

Although some of the people here advised me to NOT see an IC, I have to tell you seeing an IC has helped me 100% and it is assisting me as I am doing the MB program. My therapist is using CBT just the way TAC is describing. We talk about my issues with my family only as needed to address what we're working on in the CBT. I found that the past (& present issues) are useful examples for the CBT. I do not feel like we're dwelling on them, and my IC told me up front that CBT has a definitively finite course. At first that surprised me, but what I have experienced with CBT for myself is how darned rapidly it works.

Where I part ways with the IC Is A Waste of Time crowd is this:

You can't have a healthy marriage with an individual who is psychologically unhealthy.
For example, take a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol, clinically depressed, schizophrenic, or bipolar and try to have a GOOD MARRIAGE with them. What do you think you'll experience? The IC Is A Waste of Time crowd likes to cite Harley as saying IC can keep you in IC for years digging up the past (very true!), but they don't cite where he says that addiction and other psychlogical issues will serve to block Marriage Building activities. Here's what Dr H says about Depression: Treat the Depression first and then the Marriage.

I hear you saying that you think this IC is a waste of time and not a friend to your M. If that's the case, and your H is in need of IC please consider seeking an IC with a program which will help him and IS a friend to your M. That's what I did & the benefits were swift and clear.

Something to consider.

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D&S,
Maybe a good question would simply be "Spouse, what is your goal for IC?"

If it was to recognize all the bad things that you can use as excuses to keep doing stupid or bad things now then you have already exposed all the bad things that happened decades ago.

Next.

As in Next is your turn to state a goal for marriage like "Spouse I know you had a tough childhood and you were treated cruelly and I really want to help you overcome that by having a great life now with me in a great marriage that will make up for all the crappy stuff you had to deal with years ago. Can I help you with ...

(I'd go out on a limb here and make the offer for SF knowing most men put that atop their ENs list but you say whatever you think is best at the time)


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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I want to echo what Chris just said... You can't have a healthy marriage with someone who is psychologically unhealthy. Now, none of us are perfect, BUT. When one person in a marriage cannot even relate in an honest way and keep agreements or even see realistically what the issues are because of their psychological issues, all the MB in the world won't help. They have issues of their own to deal with first. MB didn't stand a chance in my marriage until my H had IC. I had to go first with some clear boundaries (this was the ownership I had to take in the issues - my boundaries were non-existant in all practicality, and *I* needed IC to do THAT) and refuse to stay in a marriage like that, and basically tell him to get IC or get out. Once he got IC, and fixed some of the major issues, MB then had the fertile ground on both sides to work. But it had to be the right kind of IC, because I *DO* agree with Dr. H that most IC are NOT interested in keeping marriages together, and most don't know how. My IC doesn't, but her function was to get my head straight about boundaries.

I get upset when I hear all IC being slammed as being horrid, when my experience is that IC has supported MB, and has been a completely positive experience for both me and my H.

I don't see *ALL* IC's as good, but I don't like hearing people warned away from IC if they need it.


"When people show you who they are, believe them." -- Maya Angelou
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Thanks for the all the information to think about!

My worry about IC not being a friend of the marriage was because the IC stated that she was interested in getting him healthy, and THEN worrying about the M. That bothered me. The IC is tough, and she doesn't let him make excuses or use the past as an excuse. The IC wants him to make changes in how he behaves, and that part I like.

My H has been clinically depressed and is finally on good meds. He is learning to be empathetic, because that is something he didn't learn growing up. His IC is also focused on boundaries, because his are terrible of course.

I am just frustrated that we can't work on M as thoroughly and quickly as others can.


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
D-day 7-29
NC 8-17
OW and WH both fired from jobs
OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
[You can't have a healthy marriage with an individual who is psychologically unhealthy.
For example, take a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol, clinically depressed, schizophrenic, or bipolar and try to have a GOOD MARRIAGE with them. What do you think you'll experience?


Chris, her husband is none of the above. He is going to counseling in an attempt to resolve his childhood problems BEFORE he works on his marriage; a collosal waste of time. NOWHERE does Dr Harley tell people to go to a counselor to resolve their childhood problems. In fact he CLEARLY STATES right here:

Quote:
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley


While he does advocate getting help via anti-depressants, he DOES NOT tell anyone they need to go to an IC to yap about their childhoods in order to resolve current problems. That is just a distraction and a diversion that keeps the person DEPRESSED.

And keep in mind that Dr Harley is much more credentialed than a "counselor." He is a psychyologist.

And secondly, people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol DO NOT benefit from IC; it is a WASTE OF TIME. Counselors are not qualified to help addicts. In fact, counselors come to AA and NA for their own addictions. They call we AA members to take their clients to meetings. What they benefit from is 12 step programs that focus on changing CURRENT BEHAVIOR.

Many of us have been brainwashed into believing we have to get "counseling" to discuss childhood problems in order to be happy as adults. That is nonsense. Anyone who believes that, needs to treat themselves to the book I recommended above - One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Patel, M.D. - that outlines how the counseling culture in the US has harmed people, rather than helped them.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Don't include me as being against IC. A lot of times it is appropriate, and is necessary to clean up severe personality disorders, depression, etc in order to be able to work on your marriage.

But when there is not a serious personality disorder, drug addiction, alcohol problems, chronic depression, IC is not necessary as a prerequisite to start working on your marriage. Depending upon the therapy and therapist, it may be at odds with the marriage counseling or individual efforts.

Each case is different. Use some common sense, and see if it serves your marriage and individual problems, or not.

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