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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
You sound like a GOOD therapist! The feelings led to different behaviors, which led to different feelings! clap



So what's next for you DAS?

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Thanks for asking!

I want to go to a MB weekend but the next one is impossible - I need to have surgery, it has been rescheduled once, and my MIL is flying across the country to help take care of me and already has her tickets. We need to get it over with because we are paying for COBRA insurance, my WH lost his job over the A but is applying for more and might have one soon meaning he can't take sick days immediately to take care of me. It's the same week.

My WH is reading on MB online, I have ordered books and they are on their way, and is going to come onto this board.

We need to make a better plan for our new, improved marriage. I don't want to wait out IC, I want to take the bull by the horns and do it now!!

How's that for a plan?


Me: BW, 46
Him: WH, 48
EA/PA with co-worker 8-08 to 7-09
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OW lost court case for restraining order- judge called her a "practiced deciever" who manufactured evidence!!
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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
We need to make a better plan for our new, improved marriage. I don't want to wait out IC, I want to take the bull by the horns and do it now!!


Good plan! Can you put that money towards some Marriage Building coaching? I agree there is no reason to wait.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
I want to go to a MB weekend but the next one is impossible - I need to have surgery, it has been rescheduled once, and my MIL is flying across the country to help take care of me and already has her tickets. We need to get it over with because we are paying for COBRA insurance, my WH lost his job over the A but is applying for more and might have one soon meaning he can't take sick days immediately to take care of me. It's the same week.


Originally Posted By: MelodyLane


Good plan! Can you put that money towards some Marriage Building coaching? I agree there is no reason to wait.


Melody,

Are you suggesting the money which would have gone to COBRA premiums be used for Marriagebuilders? OR Are you suggesting that her H, who is currently being treated for depression and is ONE MEDS stop using IC and use the money spent on that towards Marriagebuilders?

I am not saying this IC is any good but her H is on MEDS for Depression. He needs to be under a doctor's care either way. Plus medical insurers (COBRA included) will not pay for Marriagebuilders coaching. Maybe you're sating something else. I HOPE you're saying something else.

Just what are you suggesting? Please clarify.

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Chris, I believe it was pretty clear. I will repost so you can read again!

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
We need to make a better plan for our new, improved marriage. I don't want to wait out IC, I want to take the bull by the horns and do it now!!


Good plan! Can you put that money towards some Marriage Building coaching? I agree there is no reason to wait.


One does not need to get "individual counseling" to take MEDS; she can put that money to better use and get marriage coaching..

Whats up with pasting the Harley's mission statement in your signature? Was someone confused about this? grin


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Chris, I believe it was pretty clear. I will repost so you can read again!

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
We need to make a better plan for our new, improved marriage. I don't want to wait out IC, I want to take the bull by the horns and do it now!!


Good plan! Can you put that money towards some Marriage Building coaching? I agree there is no reason to wait.


One does not need to get "individual counseling" to take MEDS; she can put that money to better use and get marriage coaching..

Whats up with pasting the Harley's mission statement in your signature? Was someone confused about this? grin



IC can be extremely important in understanding a lot of things.

Frankly, the understanding of some of my childhood issues greatly improved some of my adult relationships.

It is the understanding of some of those issues that lead to a great deal of my personal healing.

****edit****

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Originally Posted By: cinderella


****edit****


cinderella, it is ridiculous to assert that quoting Dr Harley's professional opinion is a "diagnosis" or a "HIPPA violation." ****edit****

Last edited by Dufresne; 04/26/10 11:35 PM. Reason: removing quote, personal attack

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: cinderella
****edit****


cinderella, it is ridiculous to assert that quoting Dr Harley's professional opinion is a "diagnosis" or a "HIPPA violation." ****edit****

****edit****

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Originally Posted By: cinderella

****edit****


cinderella, is Dr Harley being "unprofessional" and making a "HIPPA violation" when he says this:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley

Last edited by Dufresne; 04/26/10 11:39 PM. Reason: removing edited quote

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Folk - Let's keep this constructive for the original poster. Please remember the sign on the door - MARRIAGE BUILDERS


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That's true.

When I first posted here, many moons ago, my primary goal was to save/improve my M. I was one meesed up puppy - wayward, bipolar, manic....it was not pretty.

But almost 16 years ago now I made a vow before God, family, and friends, and since then I have given birth to two beautiful children who need their mother and father. So what I needed then, and what I need now, is the tools to start TODAY being the wife God called me to be for the marriage I committed to God to be part of and the children I committed to God to raise.

I am a member of Nami, and a bipolar support group, and a Christian forum. They all serve wonderful purposes in the world. But when I am here, it is because TODAY I want my M to be what it should be. TOMORROW, six weeks from now, when I am 50, is not soon enough for me. I am a school teacher, not a doctor, not a counselor, not a therapist, not a sign waver or flag holder or anything else. I am also a FWW who recovered from infidelity and is striving to put into practice marriage principles. I also know how to read. And I think God intended marriage to be loving and wonderful and passionate.

Does that get me a membership to the AMA? Nope. Does it mean I am capable of encouraging other people? Yup.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Chris, I believe it was pretty clear. I will repost so you can read again!


Mel,

I already gave you feedback saying that you wrote wasn't clear to me, so re-phrasing it to clarify may work better towards communicating your idea / ideas to me rather than re-posting it and expecting me to re-read the same UNclear message. To break it down Kindergarten style for you, what has transpired between us was this:
Hey, I didn't understand what you wrote. Can you explain what you meant?
Well, I'll re-post it so you can read it again!


IMO, that statement appears to me to be argumentative (and possibly condescending) rather than one designed to communicate.


And, Mel - you are incorrect with what you said here.

Quote:
One does not need to get "individual counseling" to take MEDS; she can put that money to better use and get marriage coaching..


No one can (legitimately) receive a script for meds without seeing an MD and no one can (legitimately) receive a script for psychotropic meds without Psych sessions (for at least initial evaluation / baseline & monitoring...). That just how our healthcare system works.

Also, I think that mental health is a key ingredient for happy & healthy interpersonal relationships. Some people need assistance with mental health and it seems that disgustedandsad's H is one of those people according to what she has shared with us. Personally, I hope that her H continues to seek care even as they work on their Marriage. Perhaps the person treating him right now isn't right for him; however, he is on meds for depression and needs to be under a doctor's care. To suggest they redirect funds to Marriagebuilders INSTEAD of taking care of her H's mental health seems ghoulish to me.

To be clear - both working on the marriage & working on his mental health is the ideal; however, if it's an either-or type situation I would choose his mental health first. You have given good and great advice on many occasions Mel, but I hope they don't listen to you on this one.

Please keep in mind that I am a big supporter of Marriagebuilders, I believe it works & I have experienced real changes in my marriage because of it. Also my H & I purchased the Marriagebuilders program for ourselves. I just feel it's irresponsible (and scary) to suggest someone stop seeing an MD.

Quote:
Whats up with pasting the Harley's mission statement in your signature? Was someone confused about this? grin


Mel, it's an excerpt from the text in the Welcome area above.

Why did I use it in my signature? I think a few people are confused about what this environment is meant to be and what it is. There are people here who need to be reminded that this is a PEER environment - some of these people are on the giving end of the "advice" and some are on the receiving end of the "advice."

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Luri, I am glad you mentioned NAMI. Here's something from NAMI which may help us to clarify the finer points of this discussion as it currently stands.

Quote:
What is Mental Illness: Mental Illness Facts
Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life.

Serious mental illnesses include major depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and borderline personality disorder. The good news about mental illness is that recovery is possible.

Mental illnesses can affect persons of any age, race, religion, or income. Mental illnesses are not the result of personal weakness, lack of character or poor upbringing. Mental illnesses are treatable. Most people diagnosed with a serious mental illness can experience relief from their symptoms by actively participating in an individual treatment plan.

In addition to medication treatment, psychosocial treatment such as cognitive behavioral therapy, interpersonal therapy, peer support groups and other community services can also be components of a treatment plan and that assist with recovery. The availability of transportation, diet, exercise, sleep, friends and meaningful paid or volunteer activities contribute to overall health and wellness, including mental illness recovery.

Mental illnesses are serious medical illnesses. They cannot be overcome through "will power" and are not related to a person's "character" or intelligence. Mental illness falls along a continuum of severity.


DAS's current IC may not be solving his problems. Perhaps the approach isn't appropriate...None of us can really be sure; however, if he's on meds, the man needs care. If DAS & her H are not satisfied with his progress in IC, they can seek someone else.

Originally Posted By: disgustedandsad
My worry about IC not being a friend of the marriage was because the IC stated that she was interested in getting him healthy, and THEN worrying about the M. That bothered me. The IC is tough, and she doesn't let him make excuses or use the past as an excuse. The IC wants him to make changes in how he behaves, and that part I like.

My H has been clinically depressed and is finally on good meds. He is learning to be empathetic, because that is something he didn't learn growing up. His IC is also focused on boundaries, because his are terrible of course.


DAS, Dr h also made statements like the one above which bothered you in newsletters about addiction and depression so please don't let that bother you. Your H should be seeing some progress esp after 6 months. If you're not seeing improvements with his condition, perhaps another MD can help him.

My hope for you is that you can start working on your marriage asap & that your H can experience mental health & wellness.

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Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
[
No one can (legitimately) receive a script for meds without seeing an MD and no one can (legitimately) receive a script for psychotropic meds without Psych sessions (for at least initial evaluation / baseline & monitoring...). That just how our healthcare system works.




There is a huge difference between an evaluation for anti-d's from an MD and getting individual counseling for "childhood trauma," and THAT is what we are talking about here. [see title "childhood trauma, IC and MB"] People get anti-depressants every day after a simple evaluation. They don't go through months of counseling.

I just want to remind you that this IS Marriage Builders, Chris, not the format for your personal opinion when it conflicts with Dr Harleys. We need to stick to what Dr Harley says, and not substitute our own personal opinion. Dr Harley has stated in numerous places that delving into one's childhood is a NEEDLESS DISTRACTION that diverts one from working on the REAL PROBLEM. He is a psychologist, Chris, you ARE NOT.

Telling this woman to pursue this path is irresponsible and detrimental to her marriage; it goes AGAINST everything Dr Harley suggests. I wonder if you missed this part of the mission statement:

Originally Posted By: Mission Statement
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders concepts.


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Just a refresher on DR. HARLEY'S professional opinion about this type of counseling - and that is what we are here for, after all. We ARE NOT professionals, only peers, which is why it is important to stick to HIS opinion and not substitute our own:

Quote:
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley


here

Quote:

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
here

Quote:
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.


Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.



I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational.
here





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Mel,

You aren't a psychologist either are you? My question to you is: How do you know what my occupation / field of expertise is and how is it relevent here? All of us (SAHMs, SAHDs, bus drivers, painters, musicians, bankers, lawyers, construction workers, clerks, dental hygienists, astheticians, etc) in the MB forum are using our own individual interpretations of Marriagebuilders concepts & what Dr H has written in books and newsletters and we are discussing things and working through our issues here. Are you asking me to stop doing what is normally done in the forum ?

I saw what Dr H wrote in the Marriagebuilders newsletters about ineffective therapists keeping their patients trapped in an ongoing therapy do-loop...which is what you seem to be referring to in this discussion as well as the discussion where you discouraged me from seeking the help of an IC. The thing is - I also found several comments in the Marriagebuilders newsletters which supports my POV in this particular discussion. IMO, your suggestion conflicts with a concept which was clearly laid for me when I read what Dr H wrote in the newsletters pertaining to Addiction & Depression: Addiction and Depression must be treated before work on the marriage can begin. It also seems in poor form to advise someone to take money set aside for treatment of mental health issues and spend it on Marriagebuilders (assuming it's an either-or choice.)

With regard to DAS's H, I stand by my original opinion. believe that if he has a diagnosis of "Depression" and he is taking psychotropic medication, he should be under a physician's care.

As I said before my hope for DAS is that she & her H can beging working on their marriage asap and that her H experiences mental health & wellness.


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My first version of this post was incomplete. I am reposting below.

Last edited by SugarCane; 04/27/10 11:36 AM.

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Chris, you are correct, I am NOT a psychologist, I sell soft drinks. Which is why I continually REFER back to Dr Harleys quotes. I don't substitute my own personal opinion for Dr Harleys as you are here.

And I have pointed out to you over and over, and you continue to ignore it, that NOWHERE does Dr Harley advocate months of IC to delve into one's childhood. NOWHERE. You have produced articles where Dr H suggests getting treatment for addiction and depression, but NOWHERE does he ever advocate going to months of IC to delve into one's childhood. You can see, that he advocates AGAINST IT.

You do this woman a grave disservice by going against what Dr Harley has CLEARLY said is a waste of time. This woman's marriage is going into the toilet because her H is convinced that he has to go to months and years of "counseling" delving into his childhood before he can ever work on his marriage. That is an irrepsonsible path that will destroy this woman's marriage.

The solution is EXACTLY WHAT Dr Harley subscribes in the numerous quotes I have provided. THAT is what we need to help this woman with, rather than debating what Dr Harley has CLEARLY STATED.

It is outrageous that this woman is subjected to this needless debate about CLEAR direction from Dr Harley, rather than helping her find solutions. It is an abuse of this forum, in fact. I would refer you back to the moderator, Dufresne's words on this thread:

"Please remember the sign on the door - MARRIAGE BUILDERS"

If you are going to help newcomers here, Chris, you need to stick to Marriage Builders and leave the personal opinions at home. That is a disservice to newcomers who come here for help.


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Chris, you are correct, I am NOT a psychologist, I sell soft drinks. Which is why I continually REFER back to Dr Harleys quotes. I don't substitute my own personal opinion for Dr Harleys as you are here.


I didn't substitute my opinion for Dr. Harley's at all. I stated which parts were my opinion very clearly using phrases such as "I think"..."I believe"... and "IMO" and I also referred to what I read from Dr. Harley - separately and distinctly.

Quote:
And I have pointed out to you over and over, and you continue to ignore it, that NOWHERE does Dr Harley advocate months of IC to delve into one's childhood. NOWHERE.



That is untrue...I have not ignored this. I referred to it in my last post and before that I NEVER said that spending months in therapy talking about one's childhood is useful or appropriate. I even asked you to point out where I said that and you couldn't. That's because I never said it.


Quote:
You do this woman a grave disservice by going against what Dr Harley has CLEARLY said is a waste of time. This woman's marriage is going into the toilet because her H is convinced that he has to go to months and years of "counseling" delving into his childhood before he can ever work on his marriage. That is an irrepsonsible path that will destroy this woman's marriage.


I stated to her more than twice that she should be seeing results and if she isn't, a change may be in order. You suggested something which I, along with several people in the discussion, found to be scary and irresponsible.

To be clear, what I have been saying in this discussion is: I am not suggesting that DAS's H spend months in therapy digging up his childhood. I never suggested it and I don't think it's a good idea. I do think he needs assistance since DAS shared he has Depression and is on meds. I am 100% a supporter of Marriagebulders becasue I believe it works. I have experienced real changes in my marriage because of Marriagebuilders and my H and I have purchased the program for ourselves; however, I think it was awful to suggest a redirection of funds away from someone's mental health & into Marriagebuilders if it's an either-or choice. I hope that makes things a bit clearer for everyone.

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