and she is supposed to believe that if he just recieved a bj and didn't return the favor he's not got serious homo issues? NOWAY....they both engaged in this behavior on each other....both men....noway did one do it and the other sat there doing nothing....get a lie dector test done but really you don't need one IMO....either way this is a no go situation....call Dr.H and get his take but truly this man isn't dealing with his real sexual orientation and is living a big lie.

I may get in trouble for saying this, but I will anyway.

I believe 100% what the Bible says about homosexuality being a sin. I also believe that when God offers to help us overcome all our sins, He includes homosexuality.

So I don't give this M anywhere near as good of odds as for your average A, however I serve a big God who can make over any heart to a perfect likeness of His own. That includes forgiving and changing a homosexual or bisexual into His own perfect, pure image.

With the Great Healer on the team, I can't discount the possibility of recovery, even though the odds may favor failure. The blood of Christ can change the odds, if it's claimed on behalf of a repentant sinner.

ITA Neak.

I have met former homosexuals at a church conference who have left that lifestyle and are now completely hetro.

I do think Naveguy and Navewife have a whole different bunch of stuff to make it through a recovery than the rest of us, BUT I do believe it can be done. I would like to see them putting some of the MB concepts into practice... start moving on a plan for marital recovery. Yes NaveG needs to deal with the same sex stuff, yes he should be attending sex addicts. It doesnt change the fact that they need to do the ENQ and LBQ and read the 10 basic concepts and DO them.

I think it's up to the BW to figure out if she wants to save this marriage or not. And if she does we should continue to give her the MB advice. If not then we should also support her decision and help her through that. Men, women doesn't matter - he cheated right? And we help people who are going through the emotions of finding out your spouse is having an affair.

I too believe God can do anything, no matter how impossible it seems. I am sorry I came on so strongly. I let some personal things get in my way. If a BS comes here and wants to save their marriage from any infidelity, then MB is the best way to do it.

Sometimes it's hard to be objective when something hits close to home.

Ok, Let me start by filling in a few details I left out before in order to keep as short as possible. First, when I asked him about the men, and how it all started, he said, he still doesnt understand it all himself,BUT,said everything started with the PORN and masturbation. I compare the description to a drug addiction type thing. He said he needed the porn to be more and more kinky, and so that led to watching men, and sometimes he would masturbate to it. Said but he was confused cuz as soon as he finished, he would feel descusted with himself. The porn led to chatting, and the chatting, led him to meeting,ect.. Said that his urges got more intense and outrageous and he wanted to try the man thing to experiment and do something that was Taboo, he said that is what made it exciting was the fact it was exotic per say. He said he is not "attracted" to men at all, and has NEVER had absolutly ANY desire to do anything other then the oral. He said that the women are easy to find for sex but they all wanted money, and he wasnt paying. Said it was easier to "hookup" with the men. Now we have been in counseling since FEB and I just gave him the computer access back. He has not watched the porn at all and said to me that since he has stopped the porn and masturbation that the urges have all stopped. He has also taken the advice of the counselor and kept himself very busy with the housework,kids, ect... making him be a more productive member of the family(he was useless before always in bed on the computer)The counselor said that was a sign that he was depressed, and depressed people are empty inside, some people reach for alcohol or drugs to fill the void, he reached for sex. He is currently also taking meds for depression and anxiety. He has been to church with us every sunday since and wants to convert now. (said he feels he really has strayed from GOD and wants to clean his life up on every level. Now I am certainly not dumb, and definatly am not going to give myself any permission to take any of it with a grain of salt. I know full well that if this is a true addiction problem, he will be battling with it. I have already went to the doctors as soon as I found out and got tested, and made him get tested as well. Thank GOD he didnt give me anything when I was pregnant! I also have plans to open my own bank account and start stashing some money away so I wont be so vulnerable if this happens again. I am not 100% sure I can do this yet, but I do want to at least try to salvage my marriage. I feel that if he is willing to do the therepy,rehab, and church and be a fullfledged participating family member, and try as hard as I see he is, then maybe, we will have a chance to possibly get passed this enough to salvage something. I feel I must at least TRY to work this out so if one day it doesnt, and I leave, I will NEVER wonder "what if" and I will be able to honestly look my children in the eyes and tell them I tried my best. I can tell you though WITHOUT A DOUBT, that the minute I find out any of this is happening again, I will be out so fast his head will spin. I refuse to do it over and over. I also told him I dont even need proof...if he so much as looks guilty, I GONE. So he better walk a staight line, and stay away from ANY and ALL suspicious looking activity. I was very pleased to see some others here believe in the same GOD that I do. I have prayed so hard over this, and I feel like if both of us work hard and pray, GOD will bring us to where we need to be. God bless all of you here, and Thanks for all your support and opinions, and advice. You all have given me alot to think about, but I at least dont feel so alone anymore. I know I have a very long road ahead, and Im such a mess mentally right now, its so hard to hide it from my babies, but having a place here to come and let loose, is helping a great deal. God Bless All of us!

You're tough -- I like it!

This is yet another reason that I don't quite buy the "porn is great" routine. I have never personally known anyone for whom porn was a good thing. And it is like a drug, it needs to be weirder and weider after awhile.

I am hoping good things for y'all, but hold him to the fire. My H didn't give an inch for at least a year. AT LEAST. The WS's job is to be open, humble, responsible, and reassuring 24/7.

A search through the forum history for homosexuality and other similar words is very instructive.

Sounds like you have a very good plan. You are going to get through this.

Homosexuality is not a sin.
You are free to say whatever you want but I am free to tell you that this is ridiculous.
Plus, the god you talk about is pure LOVE. There is only one god and that equals love. God will not take away love from anyone including a homosexual. Form (us in the human form) expresses itself in many ways.
Your H has huge issues no more and no less than any ethero WS on this forum. No less than my WH for sure.
The only thing you are risking here is, as it has been said to you already, that your H truly will prefer men in the long run. NO straight guy will go for a man. That is a fact.

blessing

I'm not going to get into any sort of boxing match on the subject of homosexuality. I'm also not going to express any of my own opinions about it. When it comes to a question of sin vs. not sin, I look to the Bible. Sometimes I will find broad principles to guide me, and other times it is very clearly spelled out.

The Bible is very clear on God's love, and it's also very clear that clinging to known sin results in judgment and death, whether that sin is a big one, or something that seems small, like gossip.


There is more clear guidance in the Bible on the subject of homosexuality for anyone who cares to look.

Thank you, atena. SOMEONE had to say that...

To the OP, it IS a sin. She has already expressed her belief in and a relationship with God. To try and refute HER beliefs is not very helpful.

We each have our own beliefs and if we chose relationship with God.

I agree with PM that the OP feels that is wrong in God's eyes.

Based on that we need to figure out what will help her to recover her M if that is what she choses.

Her obstacle which has been pointed out again and again that H might chose this lifestyle in the future instead of full recovery.

I really believe that he is NOT gay. Although, I dont believe he is straight either, because as many of you pointed out, NO straight man would do what he did. That being said..we have discussed this in detail many times now, and in session with our counselor. He is NOT attracted to men, doesn't want and has NEVER wanted to do anything other then the oral. I think if he was gay and preferred men totally, he would have went further then the oral, and experimented with everything. He tells me that since he has not been watching porn or masturbating(at the advice of his counselor) he has noticed that those feelings have gone away. He doesnt have that urge to do that. Not to say it wont rear up again in a few years when this stress calms down a bit. The counselor said that is something he has to work on to figure out why he was depressed, and tried to reach for something to fill in the empty feelings inside him. I have heard a few stories now from other web sites that I am on, and I am noticing that my H is doing alot more then most WH when they get busted. The fact that he has really gotten involved with the church the way he has really encourages me to want to try. I feel as though he is working at this, when if he didnt want this marriage, he could so easily walk away and do whatever, and just send me the check. The facts have been beten to death. I want to try to stay and work on the marriage. I know full well what he has done, (dont really understand it) but I know what has happend already, and I really can tell you I believe we truely love each other. I just dont know how to move on with NO trust at this point. Also anger is really getting the best of me. I am sooooooooooo furious. I feel stupid, for not seeing things that are so clear now when I look back, and I feel hatefull for me being pregnant and very sick my whole pregnancy, and all he did was lay around in bed.(feel stupid that I didnt see that as depression) I really am just grasping for some advice to help me try to curb the anger and self loathing.

NW ~ I am going to respond to what you said on your H's thread, and I'm sorry if this has already been addressed but it's really really important that you understand this.>

You are going to need to eventually fully grasp how what you "did" in your M was not helpful and it wasn't even healthy.

By taking all responsibility away from your H, you added to his sense of entitlement [and I am not trying to beat you up here, I did the same thing in my M so I understand!]

So your H had no responsibility (or very little...no housework, no yardwork, no childcare)...AND he was able to go out and have fun/party like an 18-year-old. He was being treated like an irresponsible teenager and so he acted like one!

I know you thought you were being kind/loving/giving...but in hindsight do you see that you were not? It is not kind to take all responsibility from ANYONE...it sets them up for an enormous sense of entitlement.

And also...I would imagine you had at least SOME sort of resentment from this, I know I did. You need to begin getting to a place where anytime you feel any sort of resentment you are able to say tell your H this. Do not ever agree to anything that you will feel resentment for.

Resentment=disaster in a M.

I have spoken with my counselor many times about how I took all the responsibility in the relationship, and I get why that why that was bad in the logical sense, however, I still cant connect how he could do this emotionally. Especially since he never ever once let on that something was wrong. He always bragged to me that I was the "cool" wife, and he was glad I was not like all his friends and coworkers wives, always showered me with compliments and tried to build me up. I have a really LOW self esteem problem. I am really self conscious of how I look. He would always tell me I was hot, and always tell me if a friend or coworker would say so too. He would even get mad if I was particularly down on myself. Of course since the discovery, that hasnt changed just got way stronger, almost to the point of making me sick. My self esteem is through the floor right now. I mean not only was I not enough, but I was SO BAD Sexually that he had to find the ugliest fattest girl, and men to get what he needed. I mean at least if the girl was prettier,skinnier, or younger, I could maybe make some kind of sense of this, but this girl was not any of the above, and men....well I dont even have to go there. I am so so angry, and yet here I am staying, frozen, not knowing how to proceed. I love him, and I hate him. I dont want to make any big decisions until I find a way to cool down and think rationally. I just dont know how I am going to find ANY trust. I have seen a few posts where people have made it through this and say they trust again, and its wonderful now, ...but then my mind wonders, did the betrayed spouse just learn to hide it better? I am so scared that if I stay, I will miss it next time, he will hide it better, and what if he does it again, and I find out by getting a disease. I really want to make this work, but I just dont know how I will get passed the distrust. Right now I have NO affection for him AT ALL. He is doing what he is supposed to right now. He is more involved in family, housework, ect... and making himself TOTALLY transparent. However, sometimes seeing him 'bend over backwards" kinda pisses me off. Its like OH NOW you decided to do that, or it just reminds me of all the years of instead of helping me, he was out galavanting around. (Couldnt drive a mile from the house to get daughter from daycare, but sure enough could get in the truck and drive cross town for a BJ) He is working hard to show me he wants to stay, I have been pretty rotten to him, NO affection at all because sometimes I cant even look at his face I am so angry. Hugging makes me want to cringe. I am "lovebusting" all over the place. I know we cant move forward till that stops, but how do you do it? Most of the time I am on autopilot, how can I overcome the anger and hate to do the work it will take to move on?

NW- I think you're right to watch for when all the stress he's going through is over. The saying is there are no athiests in foxholes- extreme stress can change behavior, it's how it STAYS changed that matters.

NW, I know that me saying this won't automatically change anything, but what your H did was not your fault. Not your fault. It is not a sign that you aren't good enough, pretty enough, anything. People might say they cheat because of these things, but they don't. I didn't cheat because DH isn't handsome or good in bed or anything else. I cheated because I was selfish and callous and entitled. My cheating didn't say anything about my H; it said volumes about ME. Was our M perfect? No, but I did not have to choose to cheat. My H didn't choose to cheat, and he was in the same M I was in.

You tried your very best to be a good, lovong wife to your H. Did you makes some mistakes? Yes....I mean, you are a human being. But even after all you have been through, you are still here. You still love your H. Do you not realize how amazing that makes you? Yes, you both have work to do, but you actually want to do it. Try to give yourself some credit.

He did this because his sense of entitlement and grandiosity was fueled and HUGE due to him never having to take any responsibility for himself. A spoiled 18-year-old would throw his parents under the bus as well even though they had given him "everything" and had done "everything" for him.

The more we "get" without having earned it, the more we believe we are entitled to. It's human nature.

Bragging that you have a "cool" wife screams of immaturity to me.


It sounds like you are confusing self-esteem with self-confidence. Self-esteem is gained when someone is a good person, in and out, and does good things...does not screw up morally or ethically.

Self-confidence is what you are talking about in regards to how you look. All BSs go through what you are talking about, it's normal and I am sorry you are hurting. As time goes on and you get into a solid recovery this will get a lot better.


All WSs "affair down", it's par for the course. It had nothing to do with how you are sexually and certainly it had nothing to do with your physical attractiveness. This was ALL ABOUT YOUR WH's selfishness and entitlement, and nothing else. It wasn't even about the OW (or men)...it could have been Bozo the Clown. Eventually I hope you will see this.


As I said, they never are any of the above...not only that but it wouldn't matter even if she was...it is all very hurtful and mind-boggling. This wouldn't help you.


Go to SoCal12thman's thread and read the EPs he is working on with tst...you and your H need to use these same EPs. This will begin to make you feel safter.


You need to start working the MB program. Your best bet would be to coach with SH or Jennifer. If that isn't possible then order the books, begin reading them and implementing all of the concepts into your M. Right now you are just spinning your wheels...you need a PLAN. Coaching is best but if you can't swing it then start trying to do it on your own.

It's true, you really can have a great marriage but it isn't going to "just happen"...you have to MAKE it happen!