saddest,

you want you BH to "be nice" to you after you have ripped his heart out and stomped it into the ground? But you are not willing to put EP's in place to fix your M, because he is upset with you.....


WOW! You are still in the FOG. Have you recently been in contact with OM?

A few days ago you seemed to recognize that it was your weaknesses that lead to the A. Now it is your H's fault again?

You said that being on the forum was your way of "Not texting" and now you want to take a "break"?

Ok you said your H is not being nice to you. How much UA time are you spending together? In SAA Dr. Harley says that not spending enough time together can lead to irritability. It may not affect your relationship today, but the time will affect your relationship down the road. But he also said it takes a while to rebuild your lovebank after an affair. If you have read it, you have read about Sue and John. He said it took them several months to be comfortable again after the A and that was only after they consistently spent enough UA time together doing things that were enjoyable.

Have the 2 of you started recreational companionship? Are your most enjoyable moments being spent with your BH, or with yourself? If they are with yourself, then you need to cut it out and spend that time with him.

Don't let yourself off the hook. By having an affair, you've proven that you are as abusive as you assert your H is, so don't deflect by pointing out his faults.

You can only control your own behavior, not his.

Perhaps you should. If you are unable to promise to be a safe, non-abusive person towards your husband, then yes, it may be better to divorce him, than risk exposing him to your further abuse.
Really? Let's look at this. You are saying your behavior is a result of his behavior.

Are you willing to give him the same formula? After all, if he said the only way to abuse proof the marriage is for you to find a way to be nice to him, would you accept that? Probably not.

So what you are saying here is it's ok for you to blame shift, but he's not allowed.

I call BS. Own your own behavior. If you can't promise and deliver on the promise not to further abuse him with more affairs, then you are not marriage material.

Think about it. Any argument you use, you have to be willing to live with your husband using the same construct. Otherwise, it's a double standard. So if you blame your affairs on him, then you have to be willing to taking the blame for the abuse you say he perpetrates.

Since I'm confident you are not willing to take the blame for his behavior, have the character not to blame him for your mis-behavior, present, past or even future behaviors.
Perhaps it's because you are looking external. You are blaming your husband for both his bad behavior and your bad behavior. Why not do something different and own your own behavior. Stop blaming him for your affair, and stop saying that your fidelity is hinged on his behavior.

Your fidelity is hinged on nothing more than your personal character.
That's the POJA, you develop solutions you both can agree upon. So what is preventing you from developing a solution?

He has a legitimate need to build trust. If you don't want a GPS tracker, then provide something that he will agree to that guarantees he can trust you.

The problem is trust. The problem is not a GPS tracker. So what can you offer that promotes trust? If you are not willing to prove you are a trustworthy spouse, then yes, he would be better off not being married to you anymore.
Largely because he's not here. It doesn't do any of us any good to tell you what he should or shouldn't be doing. The largest rock in the jar is your affair right now. You just went nuclear in a conventional war.

We don't even know if he's really abusing you, or if you are re-writing history. I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but frankly, you are still so foggy, I'm not sure I'd trust you with my German Shepherd dog who can take care of himself.
I'm sure you have. Unfortunately, you've done something to him that has an emotional weight greater than any abuse or even rape. So to expect him to be nice to you right now is about as realistic as expecting a rape victim to be nice to her attacker.

If you wanted him to be nice, you picked an odd way to realize that goal by emotionally destroying your husband.
Based on what you've written so far, I think you need to look inside yourself and decide if you can be a safe partner for your husband. The largest part of your problem is that you are the criminal right now, and you are looking to your victim for compensation for your hurts. You have no apparent regard for your victim. Therefore, YOU are the one who is the most unsafe partner at this time.

Yet you insist on focusing on his faults, his short comings. I wouldn't blame him if he dumped you. In fact, I'd advise him to do so. At this point, you are not marriage material. You are "ME" material. It's all about you, your hurts, your disappointments, your regrets.

So if you can't meet your husbands needs, protect him from your LB's, and put into place extra ordinary precautions to protect him from further abuse, you should let him go and let him find someone who will do those things.
More blame. If you file, it's because YOU'VE given up. If you choose to file, it falls 100% on you. You cannot go through life blaming others for the choices you make. If you are unwilling to love your husband, that's 100% on you. If you are unwilling to pledge fidelity, that's 100% on you. If you are unwilling to come to grips with the abusive nature of your affair and the damage that it has done, that's 100% on you.

You will fall into the same pattern if you continue to live your life blaming others for your choices and circumstances.


But you didn't do that, so you have to live with the path you've chosen.

No one is saying you are a bad person, or deserve bad. What folks are trying to tell you is that you are responsible for the choices you make. If you choose to betray your spouse, you have the heaviest lifting to clean up the mess.

He didn't choose the affair, so to expect him to do the majority of the work is insane. Again, it's expecting the victim of a crime to cater to the criminal.

You can have the marriage you are or were dreaming about, but only if you are willing to do the work. It appears you are not. So maybe the best thing to do, based on your displayed attitude is to tell your husband that you are not marriage material and that you would like to free him from your selfish abuse.

Because if you choose to divorce and abandon him after what you've done to him, that's exactly what you are doing with your actions.

The choice is yours. You can honor your vows, clean up the mess you made and work towards the marriage you say you want. Or you can blame shift and bail on your commitment.

I can tell you, if you choose to bail, any subsequent marriages will likely end up the same way, you blaming your spouse for your faults, and eventually you'll once again feel entitled to any means of obtaining gratification.

If you want to end up here again in the future, quit the program now. If you don't, then do the hard work needed to Marriage Build.

This isn't hard. This is about pride. And way too much time in the courtroom. Guess what? This isn't Law and Order. There are no plea bargains or mitigating circumstances. You cheated. And it was wrong. And not only do you have too much pride to really step up to this truth...I believe you honestly think that prowess in the courtroom ranks you above strangers in a forum. Well, from one MENSA member to another, let me tell you you are grossly misinformed.

You can lay down the arrogance and debate 101 tricks...or you can lose your marriage and spend the rest of your life telling yourself it was all your H's fault.

The prosecution rests.

More blame shifting and history rewrite.

WHERE did someone say "sit there and take it"?

I went back and in the first few pages saw several people addressing your complaints about your H abusing you, ranging from asking for clarification on what exactly was happening...to calling the coaching center...to having your H post here... ALL OF WHICH WAS IGNORED as far as I could see.

And since the problem with your H lovebusting was as simple as requesting that he stop, the problem should be solved, right?

"I cheated, and it was wrong, but I am less wrong than my H, and all of you are not logical to expect me to humble myself. I will continue assert my rights until I win. And make no mistake, I always win."

This is what I hear. This is a recipe for divorce. This may intimidate a witness, but it will not intimidate people who have walked the path.

I can't figure out how you do that block thing to respond to parts of posts.

I don't think I am smarter than the members of this forum -- if I were I wouldn't be in this mess. I grew up in a family where intellectual accomplishment wasn't A measure of worth -- it was the ONLY measure of worth. Two brothers who are doctors and me and my sister lawyers. Statistically improbable. I don't intellectualize because I think I am smarter. I do it because it is safe. Emotions are scary, messy things to me. I am learning a new language here.

Susieq -- you are exactly right. Which is why I keep showing up and spouting off my nonsense. What I hear from my H is sometimes also not what is being said -- a function of, among other things, years of defenses.

But enough of ancient history and theoretical BS. I have a real problem I have been tap dancing around and I need HELP.

This trip to Boston to help my 83 year old dad while my 80 year old mother, whom I despise, has two heart surgeries is a land mine. If ever I am going to contact OM, it will be during this week -- it is too soon for me to be in this position. My dad gets confused and needs help with cabs, etc. They both need help understanding what the doctors are saying. My mother is an emotional vampire who could teach Passive/Aggressive Behavior As An Art Form at a post graduate level. She is furious with me for virtually cutting off contact with her several months ago (a decision reached with my therapist) and I can hardly wait to see how that is manifested. I'm going to be spending a lot of emotional capital on dealing with her that I need for my H.

My flight instincts with my H are still strong -- I told him something that made me feel vulnerable last night and when I found myself tearing up, I unconsciously reached for the seat belt to get out of the car which was going 75 miles an hour.

My sister and I have historically handled our parents health issues as a team -- when we are both there, it keeps my mother in line and when one of us is worn out with her, the other can pick up the ball. But my sister just started a new job after over a year of being unemployed. One brother cut off contact with my mother years ago, and has openly declared he will not be a source of support of any sort in her old age. The other brother is an ER professor at a medical school and can't get the time off. So I'm it.

My instincts tell me this is something I need to deal with on my own, but I'm pretty sure my instincts are dead wrong and I need to talk to my H about my fears. The thought of that conversation fills me with existential dread -- I don't know what's there, but I don't want to find out. I need to know the words to say to bring it up, and be ready for what his responses might be.

I don't see how I can go, but I don't see how I cannot go. It is very serious -- if my mother dies, my dad will be there all alone. I don't see that as an option, but maybe it is.

And I'm really curious whether this post will be received as another "me me me" post.

Help!

Can your H accompany you on the trip?

Have you asked your BH to go with you? Say, 'BH, I am not accustomed to asking for help, but I am trying to change bad patterns so I am asking you, please come to Boston and help me with my parents. Help me by being with me during this very emotionally exhausting trip.'

Saddest,

Let't take care of the easy stuff first. To quote someone you can type the following (i'll use parenthesis rather than the block which makes it work. (quote) copy in anything you want and then (/unquote). If you sub [ for ( you will get it to work. You will also notice a quotation mark at the top of the input window. Click on that and you will see the proper (quote) (/quote) pair show up. Cut and paste anything you want and it will be a quote.

There are some other ways to do this and some that will also list who made the quote.

You may want to understand that the Harleys consider what they do as "coaching" rather than counseling. They address what you are and aren't doing as well as your H, to make the marriage better. They rarely spend much time delving into one's past emotional history, but please do ask them about this whole thing. I believe you and your H will be surprised...plesantly so.


JL

saddestwife,

You really don't have to know how to quote to tell folks they are right. You really don't have to know how to quote to say, "Yes, I can see how I come across as selfish, foggy, etc."

You don't have to know how to quote to accept the reality of folks who have been on one side or the other of an affair.

You have both here. You have folks who've engaged in the affair who are responding to you. You have folks who've been on the receiving end of a betrayal.

Both are telling you the same thing.

So no more excuses. You don't need to quote anyone to say, yes I understand that I alone am responsible for my behavior, and I alone am responsible for my behavior in the future as well.


No need for any technical background to write those words.


They are a lot harder to live. But it starts with saying them and believing them.

Hi Saddest. I have been following your thread but haven't commented til now.

Just wanted to say that adult kids ARE allowed to not be there for every illness their parents experience. Obviously your siblings feel okay with that, and you are in a very bad spot right now. Going without your husband is a bad idea. Going to a stressful, emotional environment when you are still foggy may be too much. So have you and your siblings looked into having someone come in to care for your parents during this time? I believe you said your parents are in the Boston area. It shouldn't be too hard to find a reputable company in an urban area like that and since you all are professionals, the cost shouldn't be overwhelming cut 4 ways. Your mom may not like it, but its not like it will damage your relationship more than she already has. Just a thought.

This situation is what POJAs are all about: working thru a dilemma with your spouse to come to an acceptable solution for you both. Time to start practicing!

SadW:

It sounds like your mother trained you well.

As well as your brothers and sisters.

And stop engaging. It takes TWO to have an arguement.

If your mother calls you selfish, or whatever see does to provoke you, just say "thank you". Then pause and ask; "Would you like me to change your diaper?" Or whatever you are there to do for her and your dad. "Can I get you some tea, or a snack? Or your pain medicine?

Or, how about this: have your parents hire a "full time" care giver. Someone who will stay with them, has some medical experience, and can take them to Drs, therapy, manage RX'S, Etc. You and hour siblings can split the cost.

It will be a lot easier for you.

And your description of your R with your mother sounds like why you get the squirmys when you try to discuss something that is personal... if you said to your mother: "I feel...", or "I think..." YOU would probably get raked over the coals by your mother, so, it was easier to hide it, wasn't it? And since this worked @ 7 years old, its ok to still use it.

NO ITS NOT.

Your behaviors TODAY are selected TODAY. Sure things in the past may have conditioned you to act certain ways, but you do not HAVE to act those ways anymore.

Just so you know, MB could stand for Modified Behaviors, because THAT is what it teaches. Doing the smae things over and over and expecting different results is insanity. So STOP the insanity.

Do things different.

Ask your HUSBAND WHAT he would suggest would be the right thing to do about your mom. And then consider that. Let HIM finish his thoughts. It may have been awhile.

And MB is NOT about navel gazing. If your BH had NEVER been nice to you for 24 hours, then you be the sweetest woman you can be for three days and see what happens.

Change and Own your own behaviors, then start expexting different behaviors from your BH.

Change your phone number. So WHAT if it is a "GREAT" number. It is your great big blinking sign to OM. "You can still reach ME!!!!!"

LG

I've talked with my H at length about this. He doesn't want me to go because he doesn't want me to have to go through that with my mother and he knows what a state I will be in when I get back. He says he will be here to help me through it, but really, is that reasonable to expect? Seems like we will both be spending emotional resources desperately needed out of a sense of duty.

But H wants it to be my decision -- he is visibly trying. Astonishing really how quickly my resentment is fades when I see his effort to listen and be sensitive and caring. It all feels awkward and stilted, but that's to be expected.

The day I ended the A was my mother's 80th birthday. I knew I had to get out of there and be with my H, so I skipped the birthday and got on a plane. This did not go over well with my mother who views it as picking H over her, and that is not allowed. So in addition to all the previous stuff, she now has an agenda on my choice re: my M, which I THINK everyone here would agree was the right one.

Lousygolfer, I would fall on my knees and weep in relief if my mother were to be so honest as to call me selfish. It doesn't work that way -- the message is in how she says it, not what she says. The words sound OK -- but the delivery tells another story. I am so phone adverse because I had to learn at an early age how to read visual clues -- one of the things that made me a good trial lawyer.

I don't think I'm going to go. I think it is too dangerous on too many levels. Or, to put it in MB terms, going would be a decision of mutually unenthusiastic agreement.

You are not enthusiastic about going, neither is he. He may allow it, but he's not enthusiastic about it.

So don't go.

I know, easier for me to say than for you to do. But the POJA requires enthusiasm, and I don't get that from what you've written here.

Saddest,

Despite our disagreement yesterday over the attitude of younger women (and an oops because for some reason I thought you were really younger like in early 30s - but then did notice you have been married 25 years - and this is Not meant to be an affront), I think you should go.

Look, this may not be MB, but I now feel for you in that you have an older parent, no matter your R with you mom, who is at some risk, and so is your Dad. What you posted here now leads me to feel some disregard for you H. No matter how I felt about my W, and no matter what, I would not and could not feel I could even try to disuade my W from visiting her mom when she died 6 years ago. She was not in an affair or revovering from it at time, but even if she was I would not stand in way of parent and child.

So, you have an older son and dau. Could not one of them accompany you? The are your family. I understand the distance by your siblings. That does not mean they could not help you financially with the trip or to have at least a caregive fly with you or meet you there in Boston.

I think you are stronger than this quite frankly. I do believe if something happened to your mom or your dad at this time it would result in a serious resentment toward your husband for perhaps the rest of your life. Your concern about your husband over his feelings needs to stand down at this time; your need to be with you parents needs to be foremost. Please reconsider what You need to do..Okay.

Sorry about yesterday, but best regards.

Tom

How Noble.

saddest, just a suggestion. Please focus on fixing your own marriage before you start posting to newcomers. People come here in dire straits to save their marriages using Marriage Builders concepts. You have no experience in that!

I know you want to help, but it only causes confusion and disrupts threads when you substitute personal opinion for MB concepts.

Please fix yourself FIRST. Thanks, Mel

As someone who has a.....boundary challenged mother myself, I think that trying to find someone to care for your mom and you staying put is a good call. I hear you about "how" your mother says things. My mom's favorites were/are "I guess you just need to do what YOU think is right" or "Is THAT what you're wearing/going to do/thinking?" And I knew exactly what it meant. Sick as she may be physically....she will probably try to get inside your head, which isn't good.

And anyway, once we say I Do it is a given that a spouse comes first.

Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude.

That's ONLY if he is nice to her, HPB. After all, its only because her H is so mean that she even climbed into another married man's bed.....

Not