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MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

For all you know, that man read my post and said "wow, here is a WW telling me what I need to do to help my wife -- I'm now convinced."

I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's -- probably in the range of 90% or higher, and, in turn, the vast majority of those -- probably in the range of 80% or higher, are BW's. The WS are likely split about 80/20 WH/WS, and of those I am guessing 99% of the WH were brought here by their BW.

My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW. The WW's who show up either are quickly guided into line, or they leave. I have done neither because I know there is wisdom here but I am not going to fall into line to achieve a false sense of accomplishment.

Hang on, this is actually not a rant and headed somewhere.

With me, it is real, real time and frequently terminally stupid. But I show up because I am trying to learn a different language, a different way of being.

If there is another WW who has had the c*** beaten out of her and come back day after day spewing her nonsense like I have, I haven't found the thread -- but I'm actively looking.

There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs, and I found not one word suggesting that my feelings are irrelevant or offensive, that if my H wants the "gory details", I must tell him that moment, or that all those "Extraordinary Measures" have the MB imprimatur, or would be even remotely helpful. What I read was this:

"But what most people don't realize is that the wayward spouse... [is] also hurt by the experience. The almost always suffer from acute depression, often with thoughts of suicide." P. 16.

"Instead of focusing on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks." p. 85.

"Demands carry the threat of punishment.... In other words, you may disline doing what I want, but if your don't do it, I'll see that you suffer even greater pain ... demands depend on power." p. 95

"Never expect the other person to suffer or sacrifice so that your need can be met." p. 120

"No spouse has the right to punish the other spouse." p. 157.

"If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to the Rule of Honesty and the Rule of Protection, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, despite past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and learns how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement... it's only a matter of time before the person's spouse trusts them again." p. 160

GPS units, cameras, keyloggers-- not mentioned and actively hostile to the underlying message of SAA, but I'm told by this forum that they are an essential part of the MB Surviving an Affair recovery program and that because I am resistant to doing those things, "Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude." (quote from not2fun)

Huh??? With a couple of exceptions, Extraordinary Measures were presented to me as a requirement for going forward, and the coercive punitive nature could not be farther from the spirit of SAA.

You say I shouldn't post on other forums until I have my own house in order. You say I need to conform to MB principles when I post. Please show me where in the MB principles you find the content of the posts from not2fun and black-raven to me above. Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

The MB affair survival program, which I think is absolutely brilliant and am absolutely committed to, is set up for a BW or the BH to take the lead -- in fact the first two posts I got back were "send your H here". But he wasn't the one showing up begging for help. I was.

You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.



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Originally Posted by saddestwife
You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.

All you were told was to pls refrain from giving advice until you had sorted your own mess out. Very good advice indeed


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Originally Posted by saddestwife
of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation.

Hmmm... I, for one, do not see myself this way, and I find that pretty offensive. I know a lot of other FWW's on this forum who do not fit the above mold either. If you would like help, you may want to stop making personal attacks against the people who are trying to help you. Many of your posts come across as condescending.


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Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

For all you know, that man read my post and said "wow, here is a WW telling me what I need to do to help my wife -- I'm now convinced."

I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's -- probably in the range of 90% or higher, and, in turn, the vast majority of those -- probably in the range of 80% or higher, are BW's. The WS are likely split about 80/20 WH/WS, and of those I am guessing 99% of the WH were brought here by their BW.

My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW. The WW's who show up either are quickly guided into line, or they leave. I have done neither because I know there is wisdom here but I am not going to fall into line to achieve a false sense of accomplishment.

Hang on, this is actually not a rant and headed somewhere.

With me, it is real, real time and frequently terminally stupid. But I show up because I am trying to learn a different language, a different way of being.

If there is another WW who has had the c*** beaten out of her and come back day after day spewing her nonsense like I have, I haven't found the thread -- but I'm actively looking.

There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs, and I found not one word suggesting that my feelings are irrelevant or offensive, that if my H wants the "gory details", I must tell him that moment, or that all those "Extraordinary Measures" have the MB imprimatur, or would be even remotely helpful. What I read was this:

"But what most people don't realize is that the wayward spouse... [is] also hurt by the experience. The almost always suffer from acute depression, often with thoughts of suicide." P. 16.

"Instead of focusing on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks." p. 85.

"Demands carry the threat of punishment.... In other words, you may disline doing what I want, but if your don't do it, I'll see that you suffer even greater pain ... demands depend on power." p. 95

"Never expect the other person to suffer or sacrifice so that your need can be met." p. 120

"No spouse has the right to punish the other spouse." p. 157.

"If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to the Rule of Honesty and the Rule of Protection, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, despite past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and learns how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement... it's only a matter of time before the person's spouse trusts them again." p. 160

GPS units, cameras, keyloggers-- not mentioned and actively hostile to the underlying message of SAA, but I'm told by this forum that they are an essential part of the MB Surviving an Affair recovery program and that because I am resistant to doing those things, "Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude." (quote from not2fun)

Huh??? With a couple of exceptions, Extraordinary Measures were presented to me as a requirement for going forward, and the coercive punitive nature could not be farther from the spirit of SAA.

You say I shouldn't post on other forums until I have my own house in order. You say I need to conform to MB principles when I post. Please show me where in the MB principles you find the content of the posts from not2fun and black-raven to me above. Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

The MB affair survival program, which I think is absolutely brilliant and am absolutely committed to, is set up for a BW or the BH to take the lead -- in fact the first two posts I got back were "send your H here". But he wasn't the one showing up begging for help. I was.

You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.


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Originally Posted by saddestwife
There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs, and I found not one word suggesting that my feelings are irrelevant or offensive, that if my H wants the "gory details", I must tell him that moment, or that all those "Extraordinary Measures" have the MB imprimatur, or would be even remotely helpful. What I read was this:

You're nitpicking apart MB. Just so you know that we're not just making this stuff up, go to this link
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html


Quote
Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

The link above goes into thi. And, again, you're putting responsibility on your spouse to ensure that you do not have an affair. If my wife was a witch and I felt she was emotionally abusive, that still does not give me a right to go out and have an affair. I can't say, "well, if you're not nice to me, I'm going to cheat on you." What happens is if a spouse refuses to meet the needs of another spouse, Dr. Harley talks about when it's time to call it quits. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2397872

Again, the way to affair proof your marriage is with extraordinary precautions. You don't get to barter for fidelity.

Quote
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not.


What they're saying is MB has a notoriously large success rate. But the success comes from using MB principles. When we deviate from the principles of MB, then we are deviating from a successful program.

And I will say that while each of us is a bit different from each other and some of us have different stories to tell, nobody is really truely unique. There isn't a situation or even that hasn't already been addressed, posted, or experienced in this forum.

If you'll read a few of the threads here you'll see that a very good number of the women that were waywards are very headstrong and stubborn. They're not the meek, docile people you seem to think they are.


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Daughter 21
Daughter 19
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Daughter 10
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Your complete bastardization of SAA is quite disgusting.

Considering its your REFUSAL to do even the bare minimium to save your marriage, is the very REASON I suggest you divorcing your BH.

You want empathy for your position as the adulteress and cheating wife, yet you lack that very SAME empathy for your BETRAYED HUSBAND. The TRUE victim in this mess YOU have created.

And whenever we suggest and tell what NEEDS to be done, you pull out the "emotionally abused victim" card. Its rather repulsive. Not to mention an insult to those who are true abusive victims.

But all of that PALES in comparison of the dribble you wrote above.......

Not2fun

ps...and IF you want to quote me, you SHOULD do it right...I am not responsible for "Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude." (quote from not2fun)".....though, I would have loved to claim that. That honor goes to Black Raven.....

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SW,

I'm very impressed with your ability to cherry pick and take things out of context to construct a straw man that you can point to and say "This is what MB says!"

You're definitely a lawyer, and it seems a pretty good one. The bad news for you is that we can't be eliminated during voire dire. We're not a jury. This group is made up of people who have been where you are right now, either on the offending end, or as the victim of said behavior. We know how destructive A's are, and the high cost of breaking the vows of your M.

But we also know that hard work and following the principles deduced by Dr. Harley through his years of research can result in a M that is fully recovered. The program needs to be taken as a whole, however, since each of the parts compliments the other and is synergistic in its results.

Of course, if all you're interested in is making excuses and trying to justify your behavior, go right ahead. All it does is confirm that old joke about lawyers that ends in the line "A good start."

So just keep on keeping on. You're not going to improve your M situation this way. You might feel better for your justifications, but you're not going to get a hallelujah chorus from the folks who post here. The folks who post here, whether a BH like me, or a BW, or a FWW, or a FWH -- we've seen this crap before, or even spewed it ourselves.

We know it's b.s. because we lived it. And you're going to get called on it. Sorry to bust up your little orgy of self-serving rhetoric.

Spend less time on rationalizing your bad behavior and more on trying to fix what you broke, and you'll actually get somewhere. When you get to that point, we're here to help, because we really want to aid people in getting their M's fixed.


BH 52
FWW 50
S26 S24
EA 3/07-1/09
PA 5/07-10/08
NC finally established after eight false starts: 1/23/09
Final Version of Events 6/09
In a solid Recovery, and lucky beyond belief.
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"But what most people don't realize is that the wayward spouse... [is] also hurt by the experience. The almost always suffer from acute depression, often with thoughts of suicide." P. 16. Yes, Saddest, this is true. Most of the BSs here have never felt a WS's pain. And most WSs have never felt the pain of the people whom they betray. But only one of those groups consists of people who broke their vows of fidelity. I and other WSs can tell you 'I feel your pain' all you want. And I do. But that isn't gonna save your marriage. Saving your marriage is what this site is about.

"Instead of focusing on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks." p. 85. And it's a LB for your H every time you trot out your years-long spreadsheet listing all the wrongs you perceive he's ever done you.

"Demands carry the threat of punishment.... In other words, you may dislike doing what I want, but if your don't do it, I'll see that you suffer even greater pain ... demands depend on power." p. 95 What demands is your husband making of you now? What demands are you making from him? (This is not a rhetorical question. What say ye?)

"Never expect the other person to suffer or sacrifice so that your need can be met." p. 120 It cuts both ways.

"No spouse has the right to punish the other spouse." p. 157. You punished your H for his List of Wrongs by cheating on him. That's the punishment that should bother you most.

"If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to the Rule of Honesty and the Rule of Protection, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, despite past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and learns how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement... it's only a matter of time before the person's spouse trusts them again." p. 160 You did a good thing by POJA'ing with your H re: the Boston trip. That's a step forward. Now stick with it.

Quote
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us.
Right now, your place is to rescue your marriage. Through that experience, you will find a voice to which people will listen & from which they can draw useful insight. You're not there yet. One of your posts to Redeem_Me was totally out-of-line with what she needs to hear. (That's what I came on here last night to say - I deleted that post b/c Mel beat me to it.)

Quote
We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too.
Would you say your marriage is "rebuilt" the way you want it? Then what "experience" are you talking about? You'll have experience rebuilding a marriage once you've done it.

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I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.
I'm not here to affirm you. I'm here to try to help you save your marriage. On Day 1, one of the first things we advised you was "humility" -- and here you are, bragging about how you're "stubborn and strong." Don't you find that a little rich?

Saddest, people here care for you & your marriage. My wife even came out of semi-retirement to post to you yesterday, and that almost never happens anymore. We're not here to hear you say what you think we want to hear you say. We're here because we think it's possible for you to have the relationship with your H that you say you want. But he is deeply wounded, and for now you need to do the heavy lifting without expecting day-to-day payoffs & concessions.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Again, not impressed. And if you venture out of SAA forums, you will see that I am another FWW who does not just say what someone wants to hear. And I am not going to say what you want to hear, which is "yes, cheating is wrong, but kudos to you for not cheating sooner and for admitting you did it. Now, don't let your H speak of it again and make sure he's nice to you this time around." Not happening. Pride, defensiveness, word-twisting, and The People vs. My Rights will not help you save your M. Neither will drawing a line in the sand. You are in the acute phase here. The trauma 1 unit. It isn't time for physical therapy to exercise those marital muscles yet. You're still in danger of amputation.

There, that's enough metaphor for one post. Humility and patience are what is needed. And as far as desperation goes, a little desperation to fix the damage that you inflicted might actually be helpful. It's funny. I read SAA too....and the message I took from it was, "Luri, you have just destroyed your M, and your DH doesn't even know. You had better tell him and do whatever it takes to stop the madness you have created." I didn't read anything about asserting my rights over the man I had pummeled while blaming him for the beating. I guess it's all about perspective.

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Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

You've been asked to refrain from helping others because you are still DEEPLY in the fog. You thought processes are still rooted in defending the indefensible. WSs having a tendency to feed off of one another and remain in the fog if they validate on another's opinion. Not to mention you have a TON of work to do to save your own M.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's -- probably in the range of 90% or higher, and, in turn, the vast majority of those -- probably in the range of 80% or higher, are BW's. The WS are likely split about 80/20 WH/WS, and of those I am guessing 99% of the WH were brought here by their BW.

My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW. The WW's who show up either are quickly guided into line, or they leave. I have done neither because I know there is wisdom here but I am not going to fall into line to achieve a false sense of accomplishment.

No one is asking you to fall in line. You are being told how you can best help your BH heal enough to WANT to R your M. In all this your are still overlooking one very likely outcome if you continue down the path you are on. He can still choose to divorce you. It's really up to you....you can take off the "trial laywer hat" for a few minutes and quit approaching your situation like its a case you can win and get repentant, humble and appreciative that your BH is even willing to consider the possibilty of reconcilation with you or you can dig in your heels, be stubborn and argumentative which will likely land you in divorce court. It's your choice brought about by your actions.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdo for you too.


Actually, SW we do want your voice here and more importantly we want your M to R. There is absolutley NOTHING unique about your experiences or thoughts. We've heard it all before and in fact it's TEXTBOOK WS dribble. You will go to any lengths to dig in your heals and avoid taking the look in the mirror and REALLY seeing the person YOU have allowed yourself to become. Nothing is gonna change until you get humble and take that honest look without justification or excuses...

It's up to you SW...we can't force you to do it, but we will continue pointing out what needs to happen for you to have the best chance to grow as a person and ultimately try to save your M.

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Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

The falling down drunks are shown to the door, they most certainly are not given the floor. All they know how to do is get drunk. Heck, a MONKEY knows how to do that. But what they don't know how to do is get sober. You don't know how to get sober. The blind can't lead the blind.

You are still a falling down drunk. So I will tell you what they told me when I was new in AA:

take the cotton of your ears and put it in your mouth.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favor and fix yourself before you commence to help others. You have nothing to share yet. Stay off the threads of newcomers!

The rest of your post is nothing more than fogbabble and not deserving of my time so I will pass.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
take the cotton of your ears and put it in your mouth.


Ah Mel, you beat me to it.



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Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong --

rotflmao


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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SW, it's sad but not surprising what you got out of SAA. You missed a great deal of information in there.

However, several of the people posting to you have not only read Dr. H books, they have attended the MB weekend and have been helped directly by Dr. H in recovering their marriages. Some have counseled personally with his son, Steve Harley, or his daughter, Dr. Jennifer Harley-Chalmers.

Dr. H, Steve, and Jennifer all make it very clear that EPs are the foundation of saving a marriage, and they have helped the couples create appropriate EPs. Heck, Dr. H even says spouses should never spend a single night apart from each other...ever. And the Dr. lives by those types of stringent EPs, not because he had an affair, but because he values his marriage so much that he refuses to ever leave open an opportunity.

EPs are not punishment for an affair. They are the security systems for marriages. They are how we should have been living all along.



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Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I

I'll tell you what, you fix your marriage like we have and then come back and talk to us.

Until then you are the falling down drunk who lectures sober, recovering adults about staying sober. It looks pretty ridiculous, sw. You need to listen to us, not the other way around. You know how to screw up a marriage; we know how to fix them.

Simple as that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Secondly, meeting ENs does not affair proof a marriage. It may lessen the vulnerability to an affair, but it will not solely protect the marriage. Dr. H says that even in marriages where ENs are met, an affair can happen.

How can that be?

Because EPs were not in place to prevent someone access to you.

If EPs are met, the likelihood of an affair is reduced, but not eliminated.

Dr. Chalmers explained that to my husband during counseling. While they were creating his EPs, she told him that he needed to create solid EPs because there may come a time when one spouse is UNABLE to meet ENs. You see, it's EPs that protect the marriage, not ENs.

If a spouse becomes critically ill, they most likely cannot meet ENs. Due to high-risk pregnancies, I could not meet some of my H's ENs for several months. The reality of life is that sometimes ENs won't get met. That is not an excuse for an affair because if boundaries are in place to keep others out of your marriage an affair will never, ever happen.

My husband has a very long, detailed list of EPs on here. That list was created by him with the help of Dr. Chalmers during our counseling. They examined every area of his life where he had left a door open for someone else other than me to meet his ENs. Then they formulated an EP to close that door. Somewhere on this board, there is a thread he started about EPs. The information he used to create that thread he didn't just make up. It came directly from his counseling with Dr. Chalmers.





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SW, is there a reason why you are not coaching with the Harley's?



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saddest,

Lets see if this analogy makes sense to you. You advising new members on how to fix their marriage, at this point in the process, is akin to a high school student trying to explain habeas corpus after hearing the words for the first time without a definition.

You are still a student in this process, and your interpretation of the "Laws" in this process are still in their infancy of understanding.

If you read this disclaimer at the top of the forum page it says

"Many of our members have been in shoes similar if not the same as yours. They begin by asking questions and, with the help of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, other members point them in a direction that will solve their problem. After their problem is solved, they often stay on to help new members with their own experience, perspective, and opinion.

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts. "


Me - BS
Him - WS
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Quote
EPs are not punishment for an affair. They are the security systems for marriages. They are how we should have been living all along.

Thank you SMB, this is exactly the right thing to say.

Saddest, my FWH has a list pages long that includes every situation he could think of. Steve Harley started that with him very quickly after we started talking with him. For the longest time my FWH's job was to heal me, Steve kept me alive from week to week but my FWH healed me. He was not defensive, he just followed the directions given to him by Steve and this forum. I can tell you there is not once chance in H*** I would still be here if not for the council of both. He read the books and we attended the weekend and even then it was hard for me.

My FWH wrote all those EP's himself, several pages of them. He spent a great deal of time on the forum and with Steve and with personal help (thanks HPB aka tst). This forum pounded him daily until he got it, it was pretty brutal but he knew they were right. Your job is to suck it up and heal your H until you can both look at things and move forward. You will have your chance to say what the problems are (I said are not were) and the two of you will work it all out but he can't do that while he is laying on the floor bleeding from an open chest wound. SUCK IT UP and heal the man, he is not capable of doing that himself and coming out the other side with many positive feelings about you or your M. If you want to R your M pay attention, get humble and be remorseful and show that to your H. If you do those things well he will most likely come along nicely.

Write the EP's and show them to us. We can and will help you make them what he will need. Then present them to him, it IS a gift. I promise you he will feel better once he knows and sees what you are trying to do to make him feel that you are a safe W now and someone he can start to feel good about again.


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I haven't been following your thread, but I have read most of it...

I am a FWW, all I can say about that is, it still hurts, the pain and anguish I gave to my DH wheels, he did not deserve what I had done to him. Even though it was an EA the emotions are still the SAME! The pain, the guilt, the depression...etc.

When I first came to this site I wanted to help those BS, but yet I still needed to learn, I read, read, read, and read more! I still might get some things wrong, but I still keep going.

If you want to read my story...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2405040&page=1

There are a lot of FWW on MB, you would be surprise....I would probably change the percentage to 60% 40% (BS/WS)

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