Grace,

I think I remember you. Did you leave right after the session ended on Sat?

I agree with your assessment. I think it is really difficult unless both partners are willing to commit 100% to MB concepts. Before we went to the weekend, we were working the home study course. When we did the Dishonesty course, H said he did not know if he would be able to be 100% honest. Of course, the problem was the he still was withholding information about the A. It was not until that first week in Feb. that H really opened up. And this time, we have not even worked any of the LB courses. We have worked on affection, conversation, recreation and sexual fulfillment. And things are much better.

AM

Yes, that was likely us. We had to leave FAST to catch a plane home! So far we've done RC, Conversation, Affection and now H & O. Phew! it takes lots of time!

Last night we talked. Had its highs and lows. My husband says he wants to recover the marriage. He's uncertain MB program will work. He finally admitted to not making a full effort. He says he will not contactt his woman at his old dojo. but says he will repsond if she contacts him. Basically when questioned it got down to he does not know how to shut down the back and forth interaction. He said he had contacted her two weeks ago becuz he was feeling bad to lose the friendship. He said he didn't perceive he was losing his friendship with me. He finally agreed we would work together to write a no contact letter to this woman. He claims the relationship had not gotten to a love interest. He claims to be just attracted and enjoy karate together. I asked if he thought her husband would be upset by their communications. He did not think so because it was only about karate.

Finally he agreed we'd work the program. He said today he felt like we were starting over with the program today. I appreciated that. We are going to re-review our emotional needs questionnaires and update if need be. And he plans to complete or re-do the H&O questionnaire. So hopefully we've turned the corner. Still, I'm not feeling completely trustful. I think time will have to tell.

Dr Harley wrote to say he'd have Sandy call my husband. He agreed the way my husband had writtent he H&O questionnaire he was not planning to be honest.

Thanks for the support. It means the world right now. I can't dsay I have anyone locally to talk to about this.

Grace,
I think it might help you to understand your situation if you stop thinking of this as a "fantasy EA." You only have your H's statements that OW does not know of his thoughts about her. Your H says that the OW's H probably would not be bothered by their communication as it is only about karate. I doubt very much that all this is accurate.

Waywards have ways of talking to each other that is.....wayward. I suspect that this OW knows that there is a romantic tension or wayward tension between her and your H. It is likely that she is not being honest with her BH about the nature of the relationship.

I am just trying to describe to you that this is an EA, not a fantasy EA. People in an EA do not always openly profess their care/love for each other. It is still an EA. The wayward tension can be just as big or even bigger in an EA where the two waywards are kidding on the square.

Grace,

Your H may think he can have you and whatever with karate woman. His reluctance to go no contact with her is very telling. And lake is right. You really don't have anything other than his word (and he admits to not being honest) about his feelings for OW, the nature of their conversations and whether is was starting to go further.

As I said earlier, my H continued to lie and omit things for a long time. Of course, he had an 8-9 month PA. It was only after we attended the MB weekend and H had about a 40 minute conversation with Sandy, that he stopped lying (well, I think so anyway). He was not fully onboard with the program until Feb 2010 (note our D-day was April of 2008) and we were not getting anywhere before then.

H&O is such an important need - if it is not being met.

I hope the conversation with Sandy goes well.

AM

I agree with you both. There has to be more to this then what he is saying to me. Yes, I do feel this woman has an attraction. I feel engaging my husband is like getting a boost as is advancing in the belts at the dojo.

Here is what I wrote to my husband last night:

Dear ____,
It would help me to know if the things I'm thinking are affectionate or loving towards you and would benefit our relationship are perhaps not really of such great value to you. I guess I'm pretty confused. Here are a few things I can think of lately I thought you would like or enjoy that I've done with enthusiasm and care just in the past month. If I'm off the mark I'd like some heads up so I can put my energy elsewhere. Maybe you can highlight what you don't like or is of little value. I'm sort of frustrated because I thought I was on the right track and it seemed things were looking up. I don't have any idea how to invest myself anymore.

pick up candy bar and cookie while out and place on your desk.
manage financial affairs at the office
deal with new building issues and designs
Started to LLC company with you.
prepare meals and various domestic duties
hikes
camping
join karate and practice with you
go to ginghis khan exhibit w/you
travel to africa
lose weight
getting in shape
wear make-up in a way I thought you liked
go out with your friends (Richard)
SF
dinners out
movies
touch and attention as stated on your questionnaire
Or perhaps you can let me know what I'm doing that's a lovebuster. I am delighted and appreciate however you want to re-start the MB program with renewed enthusiasm and interest.
Love,


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So my husband claimed we would talk about this after we got home last night. But he found distractions and did not talk with me about this message to him. I went to bed. I feel he has trouble with confronting and talking H&O and thus I wanted him to initiate conversation.
########################################################

I've written to Sandy to tell her I want to give myself a short timeframe to continue in this vein, maybe two weeks. I will not talk about this or threaten him prior I'll just do it. After that if my husband does not turn the corner I will write him a note and explain I have moved out. He can only contact me when he is ready to work on the marriage using the MB program. This is how I'm looking at it right now. This means I will discontinue working in his office and managing our business affairs , moving forward with the LLC and the helping to fund the building for his practice.

I've decided to start the packing up process. I'm suppose to be meeting an architect this afternoon at my husbands office to review building plans for our new facility. It seems a ruse to put energy into something we will own together and I will be tied to financially for years to come while my husband continues to indulge his fantacy relationship with this woman. I've yet to hear from Sandy.

Grace,

Can you call Sandy? I have found her to be really responsive with questions/issues.

It sounds as though you have pretty much had enough. When that happened to me and I was screaming on this forum that I was tired of doing the heavy lifting in the M, the advice from the vets was to "get some self care" - a massage, a facial, long bubble bath, something self pampering. Maybe it will help if you did something like that today.

One of my conversations with H was not funny at the time, but makes me smile now. Last fall, when he was in contact with OW and trying to take another military deployment away from home, I said something close to what follows. It was close to "What you would like is to work in DC, come home once or twice a month for a weekend, have pumpkin pie and SF!" H excitedly said, "YES". That's when I told him that it would not work for me and that if he proceeded with his plan that I never wanted to see of speak to him again. I would pack up all his stuff and send it to him, but I did not want him to return home." I think that is when the fog of his A finally started to lift. If he wanted to maintain his fantasy world, continue to engage with OW, he was going to lose everything else. The hard work started afterwards.

I hope you can wait, at least until you talk to Sandy.

AM

Yes, I do feel like I need to do something for myself today. As I started to fill up laundry baskets with my clothing and personal items thinking I'd continue to see how this lastest effort my husband has claimed he'd make to work on our marriage would fly and then see if it necessary to set out. You see, I'd figured my husband would not notice that I'd packed up my closet into baskets and had them lying in the guest bedroom. But as I was packing I've started wondering why I should wait and continue to suffer. Go thru allowing myself to get excited and put more and more effort out while my husband vasilates in his head and me sensing he isn't really interested and get more and more depressed and rely on pills to keep me going. There is nothing that tells me this is the moment things will be different. My husband had told me yesterday he would agree to not contact this woman but he would respond (email) if she wrote to him. I've made it very clear just how emotional damaging and offensive this is to me. He'd written to her two weeks ago because he'd felt sad about the loss of a friendship with her because he quit the dojo he'd attended with her to supposedly recover our marriage. He expressed all this emapathy and caring concern for her. He makes it sound like I'm being awful to not allow something innocent such as a friendship to not continue. He told me directly when I asked if he was worried about losing a friendship with me. He said he was not. He's sorry I'm in so much pain and feels he is the cause but does not have a sense of empathy for my feelings. I wrote and called Sandy two times today. She must be off or gone or busy today. I've placed my belonging in the car and have no idea where I'm going.

Grace,

At a minimum, this is an emotional affair. Why are you leaving? I am guessing you have been working a pretty good plan A since attending the MB weekend. If you think it is time to go to plan B, pack up your H's stuff and make him leave. He is the one not working on the M or even committing to work on the M.

I read some of your older posts and one in which Dr. Harley recommended Plan B if your H would not give up OW or karate. If I read his response correctly, he seemed to think your H was involved in an A with the karate woman. Did I misunderstand his post?

Do you know the basics of Plan B?

By the way, NC is essential. Your H contacted OW less than 2 weeks ago. He will not commit to NC if OW contacts him. This is the main problem. He does not want to give her up and he thinks he can keep both her (whatever their relationship is and I think it is far, far more than he has disclosed to you) as well as you.

AM

AM,
You are correct. My husband should leave as he is not giving up something whatever it happens to be. But I have this fight or flight feeling right now. I want to go and simply rest. Read and cozy up with my puppy. Lower my stress and anxiety levels for a short period anyway. Not have to look at my husband this weekend and know he is gone really.

So, are you going away for just the weekend or are you leaving for a longer period of time - going into plan B or D?

If you are going plan B, it takes some planning and coordination.

I am sorry you are feeling so bad right now. I hope things turn around soon.

AM

I want to recover the marriage. This is an impulsive plan b. I don't know how much time I'll take. I'm scared but I'm so hurt and in so much pain from this past 6 months.

I spent last night at crumbie hotel. I'd left my husband a note. I wondered this AM why I should be the one staying in such a place with my puppy. I came home and talked with my husband.

My husband again says this woman is a casual aquintance. He says he is not in love with me. His independent lifestyle with various hobbies and no accountability for his time is too appealing of a habit to give up. He can't decide to recover the marriage or let the marriage go and enjoy doing what he wants when he wants to. He feels M was a goner for a long time. Does not feel much interest in working on the marriage. Much easier to let it go and enjoy himself then to keep working on the marriage. Said he feels he has two choices. 1. separation or divorce. 2. fake it like he's been doing since starting MB etc. He says he thought about separating/ moving out himself and see how that went.

I said the faking it thing is certainly a problem as he's not being open and honest and readily working things out with me and building an integrated relationship and compatibility. I believe he feels we are no longer compatible. Its going to be hard work. It was very painful for me. I'm depressed. But husband did agree to calling Steve H himself and talking with him. I asked if he wanted me to see an attorney to find out how much this avenue would cost. He says he is not ready for this. This is so hard and painful. But I want to move forward one way or another. I'm really scared.

Grace,

Just a quick comment. I think it's time to expose to OWH. I would take the phone or email and say something like
'OWH, I need to tell you that my H has fallen in love with your wife. He tells me this is not reciprocated but nevertheless this has caused such strong feelings in him that he is considering walking away from our 30 year long M. I question the truth of what he is saying and so, because I believe in M, I feel obliged to inform you so that you can take the necessary measures to protect your family. I am sorry if I am causing you any unnecessary or unfounded anxiety. Any indications you might be able to give me to help me to save my own M would be welcome.'
What do you think?

Dead right! Go home and occupy the territory!
Convey the attitude 'You have the right to leave my life (crazy as that is) but you don't have the right to kick me out of mine.'

graceful - anytime a WS says "I don't know what I want," you can be sure it means only one thing: "I want both the convenience of marriage AND the fun of dating, and I'm going to manipulate you into going along with this for just as long as I possibly can.

His words about "maybe I shouldn't work on the marriage" are meant to scare you into backing off and leaving him alone. He DOES know what he wants. He wants BOTH of you. And he will bribe you, bully you and frighten you any way he can into putting up with that arrangement.

Oh, and that stuff about "the OW doesn't know anything about this" has to belong in the Liar's Hall of Fame.

Thank you very much Mulan and Tully. I've certainly been thinking of this approach ie writing to this woman's husband. I looked up his email account at the company he works for. When my husband told me this AM the relatinship he has with this woman is simply an acquiantance I said I have reason to believe otherwise. He said OK. And that was all. I ageee he's cake eating. I look forward to talking w/Sandy on Monday hopefully. I've got to tell you though, it seems they have been rather mambie-pambie regarding giving my husband a wide berth and not giving me a heads up. Its been very compelling to take my husbands word.

For my husband, he has me in a negative loop. IB is an oasis and working on marriage and the hard work does not spell fun. He doubts Dr Harley's word that anyone can develop love toward another if follow the MB principles. He also doubts his own ability to have an intimate relationship with anyone. I said I've seen him numerous times get excited and passionate towards anything he set his mind to becoming an expert at. It takes conviction and he knows how to do this. He did agree with this. I find it so very sad he can cause so much pain for me and watch me in pain and be so callous like he gets off on it.

I believe my husband's interest in IB far out weights his interest in this woman. Its not as simple as an exposure in our case. Because of this I'm having a difficult time finding support here or anywhere. My husband is the oldest of 4 boys and two girls. The entire family is self possessed. All the boys have a bigger interest in IB then anything else. My husband has one brother that never married. His past relationships failed due to IB and eventually he gave up on intimate relationships. He's now 50 years old. He had a booming chiropractic practice and got sick of the IRS taking such a huge cut. He sold his practice and worldly possessions and now lives with very little and his elderly dog in an RV. He day trades and spends his entire day on the internet. More recently after becoming over weight he started exercising again. Back in his 20's he was a body builder. Now he tries various diet and exercise programs and currently follows them like a religion. ie. he stops what he's doing at any point in the day like he has to turn to mecca and does what some book tells him to do. He worries about every nickel. He goes to his elderly parents house and does laundry about once per week. When he's done he just leaves and does not say a word to anyone. Apparenty this is the kind of life my husband dreams of. Its like a weird way to have control in a world there is really not much control. This brother took off in this direction after a cancer diagnosis. He's now over 5 years out. This families youngest daughter/sister died when she was 40 of a rare cancer. And not much later I became very ill with a life threatening illness too. I believe it was during all these tragic occurrences my husband became more and more disconnected to me.

Tell OWH. Your WH is a THREAT to OWH and HIS family. You need to tell OWH so he can save his family from your WH. THAT is the FIRST thing you should do.

You should tell OWH.