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#2416503 08/13/10 01:14 PM
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Hello everyone... just found out about this website yesterday from our marriage counselor during our first session so here I am.

A little background... my wife and I have been married for 6 years and have a 5 year old daughter and 16 month old son. My wife told me last Saturday night that she just doesn't feel the same about me anymore and no longer wants to be married to me. She says she has felt this way for quite a while... maybe over a year but that is an estimation based on an event she described a year ago at counseling yesterday. Obviously I got her to agree to attend counseling, but she really doesn't think it's going to work, and she does not really even want to try. After some personal reflection, I realize that I did not show her enough emotional support and love that she needed in the relationship. Sure I did at first which is why she loved me in the beginning, but over time, and work, kids, and life took over, the magic disappeared, but I was never aware that she was unhappy until last Saturday.

Now onto my main concern... am I wasting my time and prolonging the inevitable if I try to show her that I can still be that man she fell in love with and provide her the happiness and love she desires so much. She says she doesn't think she will ever change the way she feels and it hurts to hear her say that. I don't want her to leave because I believe that in time we can work out our problems if both of us are willing to put in the effort. If she is not willing, then it looks as though I may be delaying the inevitable. Your thoughts are appreciated.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416527 08/13/10 01:42 PM
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Right now your wife's Love Bank is in a deficit situation. Her balance is negative. She does not feel in love with you and doesn't see how she can feel in love with you.
However, we here in the Marriage Builders community have seen over and over that if you start making deposts by truly meeting her Emotional Needs (ENs) and also stop making withdrawals with Love Busters, her Love Bank will be positive and she will feel in love with you. It is your responsiblity to keep her feeling in love with you by meeting her ENs...to do this you HAVE to change. You can do this because you have done it before...you got her to fall in love with you in the beginning.

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Wanna, I know you are right and I accept responsibility for bankrupting her love bank. I think I have been making deposits. Tuesday I sent her flowers, Wednesday I left her an I love you note before I left for work, every night when we go to bed and every morning before I leave I give her a kiss and tell her I love her. Today we took the kids to the zoo. Tomorrow we have a date night, movie, dinner, and dancing. Are these the deposits I need to be making or is there something I am missing. So far I haven't seemed to get anywhere and she still wants to leave. I know this problem didn't develop overnight, and it won't be fixed in a week or a month. But she still insists that no matter what I do, she is not going to change her mind.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416543 08/13/10 01:58 PM
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A few things to keep in mind:

1) Your wife's balance may be so low that even though you are making deposits you still have not gotten the balance to be over zero. So if her balance was -200 and you added 50, it would still be -150 and she would not feel in love.

2) You need to make sure that you are meeting her most important needs in the way she wants them met (use the Emotional Needs questionnaire)

3) You need to sustain this level of EN meeting...when you were initially wooing her, a week of interest and then nothing would not make her fall in love. Also, she does not trust you to make changes so you have to show that you are in this for the long haul.

4) I don't know about your case, but sometimes people don't allow you to meet their ENs because they have another person that they are having an Emotional or Physical affair with.

SteveinJAX #2416563 08/13/10 02:11 PM
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Feelings are a funny thing. They change constantly, and yet our mind convinces us that they are unchanging. I'm certain that on the day she married you she could never conceive of NOT loving you - or she wouldn't have married you.

Now she is at the opposite place. There have been so many withdrawals of love by you for so many years that she cannot conceive of loving you.

And even if she does - even if you change, there is always the fear that it is temporary. That old behaviors will revert.

You will have to affect a PERMANENT change to the way you view your marriage. You will have to establish completely new BEHAVIORS and consistently practice them FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

The trick isn't getting your wife to fall in love with you again, you CAN do that. The trick will be getting her to STAY in love with you and getting her to BELIEVE she will stay in love with you for the rest of your lives.

It took you 6 years to get to this point.

A couple of flowers and I love you notes this week is hardly a drop in the bucket.

There is A LOT of good information here for you.

Right now you need to ask your wife 2 questions:

-What am I doing the MOST that hurts the WORST? (This question addresses the love busters you commit - ANY answer she provides is a valid answer. You should not argue or defend yourself AT ALL, rather consider her response and eliminate the behavior that is hurtful)

-What can I do that makes you feel the most loved? (This question addresses her most important Emotional Needs. Again, any answer she provides is valid. You're wasting your time sending flowers if they don't make her feel loved. If what she needs is a hug every day to feel loved, then do THAT.)

Think back to when you were dating and fell in love. You didn't fall in love because the stars aligned - she fell in love with you because of WHAT YOU WERE DOING. HOW you were acting created feelings of love in her for you. YOU are responsible for the wife your love feels for you.

You need to be that man, again. You need to be the man she fell in love with.

One of the key ingredients to what made you fall in love then, and what will make you fall in love again is TIME. You absolutely MUST begin spending time together - at least 20 hours a week. You need to clear your schedule of ANY extra activities and devote time to focusing on HER.

Yeah, I know - you got kids and busy schedules. You will get NOWHERE if you don't spend time together.

This is a MUST.

Finally, and this is a precautionary step you MUST take - you need to be snooping on your wife. Typically, when there is a sudden sense of loss of love, it is because there is a new point of comparison. She feels less love for you because there is someone new around meeting her needs. Typically when women want out of a marriage it is after years of giving it their all and experiencing years of marital neglect. The #1 reason women leave men is for neglect. Not for abuse, or addiction, but neglect. And, typically, these women just LEAVE. There is no reasoning or rationalizing with them. They are DONE. So when a woman says it just 'isn't working' and she 'needs some space' or 'doesn't love you anymore' ALMOST all the time it is because there is another man in the picture.

You need to consider this possibility - because all the work you do will be wasted if there is another man in the picture.


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Vibrissa #2416584 08/13/10 02:32 PM
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If you review emotional needs then you will realize that gifts are not one of the top 5 emotinal needs. It is a love language, and it might not even be hers, it is probably yours.

I think it would be best if you find her top emotional needs and gear yourself to meeting those. For instance if it is affection find the way that she likes to feel affection. For my wife I just have to be touching her with a hand on the leg or giving her gifts. That is only one need out of 10 that need to be met.

On top of that you have to refrain from Love Busting her. Doing those things that deplete her love bank. Find out your worst LB moves. Your wife will readil ypoint these out. These are things like Disrespectful Judgements (even though you might think you are helping her, you can actually DJ her), Angry Outbursts, annoying habits.

Spend up to 15+ hours of undivided attention together each week. no movies no tv nothing that will take your attention off your wife. Use these hours together to meet ENs. Some of my favorite UA is getting the SF EN done....hint hint.

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Ok, so I printed out the EN questionnaire and presented it to my wife. I sat down with her at dinner and spoke of the Love Bank concept and how I have depleted her bank of love. I asked her to complete the questionnaire and I would complete one as well. She said she doesn't feel like completing it. So I calmly rephrased by saying it would mean a lot to me if you would take a few minutes to complete the questionnaire. She didn't respond, and I left it at that.

Thanks for the inputs so far. I will definitely ask her those questions, but I need to find a good time to do it. I think she is beginning to get really annoyed that I am trying so hard to fix something she is making clear she does not want to fix.

Wheels, her love languages are Receiving Gifts, Quality Time, and Words of Affirmation. If I get her to complete the EN questionnaire I will begin focusing on her primary ENs.

Vibrissa, I hear what you are saying about snooping, but I am not sure that snooping positively contributes to the love bank, especially in trust. To amplify, my wife recently went on a trip to Washington to attend her nephew's wedding. I could not attend because of work commitment. When she returned she did tell me that she met someone while she was there that made her fell wanted and appreciated. He lives in Arkansas. She had been calling him the first few days she was home, and she told me that. I did not find that out on my own. She told me that it was not fair on her part to do that to me so she said she called him and told him she would not call him anymore. So do I need to snoop. She had given me the password to her e-mail account many years ago, and she recently changed it, so maybe they are communicating by e-mail, I don't know. It sure sounds fishy, I know, but without the password I won't know, so I can't force myself to worry about whether or not she is communicating by e-mail. I have checked her cell phone log, and she has not called him anymore since the day she said she stopped calling him. I am pretty sure she does not know how to clear that log, because all of the other times she called him are still in the log.

Bottom line, if she is communicating with him, I am wasting my time, but since I don't know and can't know for sure I just have to assume that she is telling me the truth, since she was truthful by telling me about him the first time.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416706 08/13/10 08:09 PM
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AH, your WW is lining up your replacement. I bet she already did the deed before during or just after the wedding trip when you were home.

WW's usually pretend that there is no one else. But women do not usually get up and end a marriage unless they have MR Right No. 2 ready to go.

SteveinJAX #2416715 08/13/10 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
A little background... my wife and I have been married for 6 years and have a 5 year old daughter and 16 month old son. My wife told me last Saturday night that she just doesn't feel the same about me anymore and no longer wants to be married to me. She says she has felt this way for quite a while... maybe over a year but that is an estimation based on an event she described a year ago at counseling yesterday.

Steve, welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here. The problem is that your wife is having an affair. It was only AFTER she met this new man that she decided she wasn't in love with you. That is because she has a new point of comparison.

If there is an affair, all the need meetin' in the world will not save your marriage. What WILL save your marriage is if you get the true facts about her relationship with this man and come back to this board and let us help you.

My suggestion would be to not ask her, but quietly do some snooping. Put a keylogger on her computer [eblaster at spectorpro.com] flexispy on her phone and a GPS on her car. The fastest horse would be a PI if you can afford it. I strongly suspect you will find evidence of an affair.

Here is what Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders says about this:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.
Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings.
here





"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


SteveinJAX #2416716 08/13/10 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
Vibrissa, I hear what you are saying about snooping, but I am not sure that snooping positively contributes to the love bank, especially in trust.

She won't know about your snooping if you don't tell her, and you shouldn't tell her. Snooping is only a lovebuster to spouses who are hiding something.

And it has nothing to do with "trust." There is nothing untrustworthy about snooping on your wife. You have a right to know each and every thing she says and does. No one has the right to the privacy to have an affair.

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Bottom line, if she is communicating with him, I am wasting my time, but since I don't know and can't know for sure I just have to assume that she is telling me the truth, since she was truthful by telling me about him the first time.

it would not be wise at all to assume any such thing. Cheaters always lie about their affairs. And no, you are not wasting your time if she is having an affair and you catch her. Most marriages do not end over affairs and you can save the marriage.

BUT..you won't save it unless you have all the facts.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2416731 08/13/10 10:20 PM
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Ok, after we got the kids in bed, I sat down and talked with my wife. I will tell you that I probably did not say all the right things, but I was upset at some of the answers I received.

First I asked her, and I thought long and hard about this, because it felt like a question that would lead down a path hard to recover from, if she was so determined to leave then why is she still here. Her answer was because she needed to find a job in order to take care of the kids and pay bills on her own. I will tell you that she has not worked a day in her field, graduated college with accounting degree in 2004. I talked to her about the difficulties she would have trying to make it on her own with 2 children and entry level job income. That was an assumption on my part. All of that was really inconsequentional to the next question I asked... was she still talking to the guy she met in WA? She looked me in the eye and said yes. Even after telling me a five days ago that she had stopped talking to him. She apologized, but by this point I was not really wanting to be forgiving. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that qualifies as emotional spousal abuse. I suspect that she didn't have sex with him because she was on her period while she was there, and even in our best days we never had sex during that time. But the fact that she lied to me and continued a relationship with this guy downright got to me. She told me that she would call him right now and tell him it was over, delete him from e-mail, and facebook. I was skeptical at first. I went on by telling her that I didn't want her to leave here with the children, and that of course struck a nerve with her. She claimed I was a bully, trying to keep her here by threatening to take her kids away. I was not trying to threaten or bully her. I know that does me know good in trying to reconcile the marriage, which I know still can be done, and honestly I still would like to reconcile, but I am sure it will be much harder now. We sat in silence for about 5 minutes and then I told her I wouldn't say anything else and I would let her think about the road she wanted to go down and let me know. After a few minutes of silence she got up, grabbed her cell phone, and went outside and called the guy. I verified the phone log. Then she went to the computer and deleted him from facebook. I verified her friends list. Then she went into the bedroom and closed the door. And here we are.

So, Road you all were right... she was having an affair. Now I really don't know what to do. We are supposed to have a date night tomorrow evening, and I don't know whether to pursue that or not.

Thanks for listening and you advice. I really appreciate it.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416736 08/13/10 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
Ok. I went on by telling her that I didn't want her to leave here with the children, and that of course struck a nerve with her. She claimed I was a bully, trying to keep her here by threatening to take her kids away. I was not trying to threaten or bully her. I know that does me know good in trying to reconcile the marriage, which I know still can be done, and honestly I still would like to reconcile, but I am sure it will be much harder now.

What you did by telling her she can't take the kids is one of the wisest things you have done here. In order to pursue her fantasy, she needs you to cooperate with her intended destruction of the marriage and the family. The only thing you will get by doing that is a.............destroyed marriage.

Telling her she can't take the kids and that you will fight her tooth and nail in a divorce shocks most waywards and injects a huge dose of reality.

I think it is important for you to understand exactly WHAT a lovebuster is, becuase I think you have confused ENABLING with acts of love. cooperating with her divorce scheme would be enabling. Appeasing her bad behavior will not save your marriage, it will destroy it. Keep in mind that you are all your children have right now and they need you to fight for your marriage and protect their family.

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After a few minutes of silence she got up, grabbed her cell phone, and went outside and called the guy. I verified the phone log. Then she went to the computer and deleted him from facebook. I verified her friends list. Then she went into the bedroom and closed the door. And here we are.

ok, it is doubtful she ended the affair. This was all put on for show so she can go further underground. I assure you that all you did was tip your hand so she can become a better hider.

Your next step should be to QUIETLY [WITHOUT HER KNOWLEDGE] find out if the OM is married and get the phone # to his house. If he is married, you may be able to kill this affair with one phone call to his wife. Do not threaten to do this; it needs to be done with no forewarning.

In the meantime, I would suggest installing eblaster [spectorpro.com] on her computer and putting flexispy [flexispy.com] on her phone.

But please stop asking her about the affair. That is a useless endeaver. You will not get the truth from a liar.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2416775 08/14/10 01:00 AM
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Melody, thanks again. I just finished installing eblaster on her computer and tested it. Works great.

I'll leave her cell phone alone for now, since I am pretty sure she doesn't know how to delete call logs from it since every call she has made to him is still on the phone, so I'll go with that before I pay the $350 for it. Since she recently changed her e-mail password I suspect they were communicating via e-mail or chat, so with e-blaster I've got that covered.

I checked the guys facebook page and it says he's single. I'm not sure I want to call him out on that just yet.

I will stop asking her since I think I've got a good way of tracking her now.

Thanks for the reassurance that what I told her tonight was the right thing. Maybe it gave her a shock of reality of what's to come if she continues down this road. Only time will tell.

So, with all the new events of this evening, and the fact that I want to fight to keep our marriage together, I am not sure where to go from here. I know that casual conversation will be difficult, and we have a scheduled date later today.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416810 08/14/10 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
So, with all the new events of this evening, and the fact that I want to fight to keep our marriage together, I am not sure where to go from here. I know that casual conversation will be difficult, and we have a scheduled date later today.

Steve, just play it cool and tell her that you won't cooperate with any divorce or separation schemes and you won't let her take the kids without a court order. Focus your attention on gathering intel so you can find out what is going on.

See, most waywards fantasize about how easy it will be to just move on. That fantasy is contingent upon your cooperation. If you can politely, but firmly, tell her that she will be in the for the fight of her life, you will ruin her fantasy.

Another thing you can do is call up the OM yourself and ask him what his intentions are. Tell him you intend on fighting for your marriage and if this ever goes to court that you will file on grounds of adultery and have him hauled into court to testify under oath. Tell him to leave your wife alone, that there is no future in his affair because he will be eternally hated by your children and the inlaws. Most OM are pansies and will run at the first sign of trouble.

It is also very probable that your W has lied to him about the state of your marriage. Calling him will clear up any lies.

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I checked the guys facebook page and it says he's single. I'm not sure I want to call him out on that just yet.

Go on there today and copy all of his facebook contacts into a WORD doc before he removes his page. That way you will have it for safekeeping. Can you ID his parents from that page?

Once you get the goods, you will need this info for a nuclear exposure.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2416817 08/14/10 10:07 AM
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Melody is guiding you well. Also do not leave your home if she ever asks for space and wants you to move out.

Do not get mad if you discover something on the computer and say something to her. You must maintain your cool. Then you do a huge nuclear exposure to everyone. That's how she'll find out you know.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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We are getting ready to go on our date ina couple of hours. So far today conversations have only revolved around me bullying her about taking her kids away. She didn't sleep very well last night (we still sleep in the same bed). She says that after me threatening her to take her kids away from her that she has been thinking of how she can get a job and how much she needs to make in order to move out. In the meantime, she is stuck here in our home which gives us time, but she is determined right now that all she wants is to leave. She's tired of talking about it, and says we have already said everything we need to say, which I know is not true. I know I can't make her want to try, and I guess all I can do is allow her to follow the road she wants to go down and find out it's not what she thinks it's going to be. I am surely not going to make it easy for her. She knows she can't leave with the kids without a court order, and that I will delay divorce proceedings to keep dragging it out and running up her legal fees.

I don't want to sound like I am trying to threaten her, because that will get us no where in the long run, but I do want her to know that I am going to fight to save this marriage with more than just filling her emotional needs. I have to for my children's sakes.

I copied the guys friends list and saved it for future use if necessary. I was able to ID his mother. I asked her about what she said when she called the guy last night, and she told me she told him that she couldn't talk to him anymore since I threatened to take away her kids. Sounds like a delay tactic to me, but I'll be watching what she is doing on her phone and computer.


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416868 08/14/10 01:35 PM
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Oh and another thing... she says that she never regrets marrying me, but she thinks we are just not right for each other. What the heck does this mean?


Me: BH (35)
WW (29)
DD (5)
DS (1)
D-Day: EA 8/7/10
SteveinJAX #2416881 08/14/10 01:58 PM
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It means that your wife is in an affair. People in affairs say all kinds of wacky things; we call it the "wayward fog". Perhaps it is an emotional affair and not a physical one, but it is an affair nonetheless.

Listen closely to MelodyLane. She is an expect at marriagebuilder principles and breaking up affairs.

If you have not started reading the information in the articles on this site, take a look at them. Also, read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. It is full of useful information. On the surviving an affair forum, there is a thread for newbies. Read that, especially about the carrot and stick of breaking up an affair.

I am sorry this is happening to you and your family. But welcome to marriagbuilders. There is a wealth of information here about how to recover a marriage after an affair.

Last edited by armymama; 08/14/10 01:59 PM.

BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
armymama #2416882 08/14/10 02:03 PM
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I just have a second but look up on this site for Plan A. Have her fill out the Love Busters questionaire also. The idea is to start meeting her needs as she filled out on the emotional needs questionaire, stop doing those love busters she fills out on the love busters questionaire and spend 15 hours with her of undivided attention.

Remind her if/when she brings it up that you are not taking the kids away but that you are fighting for your family and your children are staying with you and they should be raised in an environment with you and she as the father and mother.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

SteveinJAX #2416916 08/14/10 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveinJAX
I know I can't make her want to try, and I guess all I can do is allow her to follow the road she wants to go down and find out it's not what she thinks it's going to be.

She will want to try if you can kill this affair. She is currently emotionally invested in the affair but if you kill that, you have a chance to get her back.

You can influence the outcome here if you gather intel and come back here and let us help you use it strategically. In the meantime, be as sweet as possible and continue to tell her you won't cooperate with any divorce shemes, won't allow her to take the kids without a court order, and won't give her any family money for an apartment.

The plan you should be in is Plan A, Steve. Plan A

And please get the book Surviving an Affair and read it as fast as you can. You can find it in bookstores or can buy it cheap on this website in the bookstore.

I would also click on "notify" on this post and ask the mods to move this thread to the Surviving an Affair forum.

Quote
I don't want to sound like I am trying to threaten her, because that will get us no where in the long run, but I do want her to know that I am going to fight to save this marriage with more than just filling her emotional needs. I have to for my children's sakes.

I would tell her it is not a "threat" it is a promise. You promise to do everything in your power to protect your children from her schemes.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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