When you say that kind of crap it's as though you think your choice was somewhat more justifiable than MOST wayward spouses or something.

This is NOT an uncommon problem. Almost all fww's struggle with accepting 100% of the responsibility for making the choice to cheat. I heard Dr. Harley speak of it on one of his old radio programs wherein he stated something to the effect that even years out in seeming recovered marriages that former wayward wives still cling to some kind of notion that their cheating was, in whole or in part, their husband's fault.

They think....Had he not neglected them, had he fulfilled his husband duties to lead, protect, cherish, had he just been home more or been more jealous and protective of me, etc...
but for HIS failures...I, the former wayward wife, NEVER would have had an affair.


The TRUTH is you are 100% responsible for your choices to commit adultery. 100%. It happened and YOU choose it. You had other options besides cheating to address the issues in your marriage. Sure your husband may be 50% (or more) responsible for the issues in your marriage pre-affair, but he did not hold a gun to your head and make you cheat. It's ALL YOU.

Further...it's doubtful his LoveBank balance was very high for you pre-affair and it's certainly not high now post-affair.

There is NOTHING that he has ever done that gave you the right to make that choice to cheat.

Owning it...is a great place to start recovery.

Mr. Wondering

Amen. Great post, MrW!

I feel compelled to post a response here. You are learning that your actions have consequences, and that they extend to family and beyond. But SW, as people repeatedly remind me here on this forum, this is not about your feelings. Nope. Not at all. They are totally unimportant. You own up and live with this. You did it. Your only response should be not resentment or anger but dedication to helping your H and improving yourself and learning new ways to react to things that are not ego-protective. As long as he or your family sees you becoming resentful or angry about their feelings that are the result of the damage you did, they will not heal. Your reputation to friends and family means nothing in the larger sense. You will in the long run only be judged by any of them by the actions you take to improve yourself and dedicate yourself to the feelings of others. They already know that you are self-focused and ego-protective. That is who they have come to know. Their respect for you is not as great as you may like to think. They want to see something different, so you need to be something different. Yes, you feel humiliated, because what you did was humiliating. What is so inappropriate or wrong about that? Don't you want your children or friends or especially your husband to think that adultery is something other than humiliating?

The word "humiliate" means to be made humble. That is actually exactly what you need, right? When you are humble, people will have a chance to actually love you.

Thanks...

but whatta we know...

we're just a couple of old bitter betrayed spouses.



[actually I see saddist struggle as what would have been my own had I been the one that cheated on Mrs. Wondering. Attorney's don't admit fault...we argue and try to logic our way out of fault. Her "logic" has her pointing a finger at her husband right now oblivious to the fact that when she does that she literally has three fingers pointing back at herself. The fact she's sticking around and not fighting back now is encouraging. I probably would have been more stubborn or conflict avoided, i.e. -LONG GONE. She's got better listening skills than I.]

Hi SW

Just wanted to pop onto your thread and thank you for the comments you made earlier this week.

You were right I needed to get a grip and concentrate on knowing myself, I feel sooo much better and clearer and have a lovely weekend planned.

I have read through your thread today, jeez you have had some serious 2x4's, I reckon I got off lightly!

Hope all is going well with you. How you doing with your boundary setting?

Hitch x

I noticed that..... but I keep coming back for more.

Sometimes I think I have the boundary thing figured out and sometimes I feel like my head is going to explode.

I find it helps me to stop and say "who are you? Are you a liar or are you honest? Are you uncaring or are you compassionate and empathic? Are you mean or are you kind? Are you selfish or are you taking care of yourself?"

BTW -- on the self care thing, I didn't mean to suggest men don't live sacrificially as well. I think women are more prone to confuse selfish and self care -- my mother might have accidentally taught me those are the same things. One of my favorite sayings is "'No' is a complete sentence." Women feel the need to explain themselves because we are hard wired to nurture relationships and build consensus, but with explanations comes an invitation to cross whatever boundary we are trying to set. It happened with my OM -- "no, because I am married." The "because" was in invitation.

Maybe it is a generational thing -- I was in the first wave of female professionals told we could have a fulfilling and successful professional career and three babies and if you can't manage that, there is something wrong with you. Trying to juggle all that was impossible for me -- I lived a crisis driven life, and a crisis driven life does not lend itself to boundary setting. When I started practicing law, there were judges who required the women lawyers to wear a tie in their court. Maternity dresses were not made with ties. Being a woman was confusing.

It was an awkward situation because my H was sitting in the den behind us and could hear everything. I expected him to tell GF the password, and when he didn't, I wasn't sure what to do. H told me he doesn't want me to have his passwords because he doesn't trust me. Fair enough. I thought the truth was the best answer. In hindsight, maybe not.


None. Don't think I'm not grateful. I am.


I'm not really. I talk a good story, but in the end, I won't unless H asks me to. Sure, every once in a while I want to make a break for the door, but I tell you all that, not him.



I actually have a good friend who just ended a 7 year affair (how in the world someone could do it for 7 years is a mystery to me) and I am going to talk with her about this program as soon as I get back. Her H had an A ten years ago and she still attacks him, sometimes physically, about it. He has no idea about her A -- they never dealt with any of it, one reason I am so determined not to sweep this under our already full rug.



The issue wasn't so much the embarrassment of the moment. The issue was the flashback to times in the past. Sure, if I hadn't had the A this particular incident wouldn't have happened so it is my fault it did. But it was still an LB. Maybe I should have let it go.


I have a seriously slow "feeling" processing speed. I got thrown, I withdrew. Old habits die hard, but they can die.

We talked about the matter again this morning, so pull out your 2x4's.

I response to my embarrassment, H raised Mr.W's humiliation point -- i.e. "you, wife, humiliated me in front of your friends a thousand times worse than anything I have ever done. This is nothing in comparison."

I said "I did the worst possible thing a spouse can do to the other, I hurt you as deeply as it is possible to hurt you, I will regret it until the day I die, I am horribly sorry and I will do whatever I can to make it up to you. I will never, ever again hurt you that way. I know you can�t believe me right now, but I hope some day you will."

Got your 2x4's ready?

"BUT, you will ALWAYS have that card to play and it will ALWAYS trump whatever I am feeling. We have GOT to get out of this dynamic where we are collecting chits on each other and start taking care of each other instead. A win/lose model got us where we are today -- it flat doesn't work."

Is that not admitting fault and pointing a finger at H? I don�t know. That is a sincere question. If I don�t tell him when he is LBing, how is he to know? Should I not tell him? True, if I hadn�t had the A, none of this would have happened but I still have an LB and its still in the red and not telling him when he�s making withdrawals doesn�t seem right either.

I really didn�t view the discussion with H as being about the password. I am trying to get out of the win/lose model. In the end it was a good conversation.

Which brings me to the issue that I think GM is struggling with a bit -- how do you give from an empty plate?

I believe in the basic soundness of the MB system.

My LB has been in the red for YEARS.

I need to help my H heal.

I need to continue to meet his EN's. According to him, prior to the A I was doing a splendid job at that. Aside from the small matter of infidelity, I was a pretty good wife on the surface. I was a terrible wife in that I didn�t tell him what I needed from him in a way that he could hear.

I need to teach him how to meet my EN's.

I need to call him on his LB's, AO's and DJ's being the biggest. I need to tell him what my boundaries are and enforce them consistently and kindly.

Calling him on his LB's feels inconsistent with healing and meeting his EN�s.

There is a rhythm to this that I don�t have yet.


I�m glad you asked this as I have been feeling like I need to get back to the basics.

Trust: access to email, etc. Tell him where I am and when I am coming back. Not sure what else to do here.

EP�s: I�m still struggling with this one, believe it or not. I�ve only come up with two.

1. I will only talk to H, SteveH, or my pdoc about my M.
2. No girls� night out for a while.

I�ve asked H about this, and 1. is the only one he cares about. He doesn�t want GPS, keylogger or any of that stuff. He�s going dove hunting with S15 first weekend of Sept. I can�t go because they are staying 4 men in one hotel room. I don�t want him to worry � thoughts?

Romantic Love: H has a way higher EN for PA than I do so am focusing on that. I don�t have to feel it. I just have to do it. His biggest LB is O & H and am trying to do that too, although, as I set out above, I�m not sure how that is supposed to work at this juncture. SF, check.

I am talking to SteveH again next week � the cell phone coverage here is so spotty I decided to wait until we went home. After that, hopefully H will talk to him and we will both be more on the same page.

Do you think it would be OK for me to print out some of the posts here and ask him to read them?


GM, I can honestly say that not a single person in my life, including my H, would agree with that. I am a caregiver by nature. My empathy level is so high that on date night my H compared me to a submarine with state of the art sonar. Needs? What are those? I gave and gave and gave and gave and when my Taker came out, it was rapacious. I didn�t have the faintest idea who I was or what I stood for because I spent my childhood taking care of my mother�s needs, and my adult life taking care of my H and children�s needs. I was raised to believe that my value as a person was directly related to my GPA, SAT, and salary, and on some level I still believe that. Sure I have an intellectual ego � I�m smart. So what. That isn�t even on my list of core values.

I did a selfish thing. I am not a selfish person.

I did a cruel thing. I am not a mean person.

I did a dishonest thing. I am not a dishonest person.

All I can do � all anyone can do � is try to fix what I have broken.

I think he was asking how I knew OM -- didn't follow up though. Just shook my head and changed the subject.

I thought it was a little bold, but whatever.


Don�t be silly SusieQ. Waywards don�t think. And since we are super people who can scale buildings unaided and fly through the air and make ourselves invisible, we are never going to get caught so even if we we were to have the odd thought now and again, it wouldn�t matter.

Admittedly though, the impact the A was having on my ability to parent my kids was probably the most important factor in ending it and sticking with NC. I'm not sure it matters how I got there. The important thing was to get there.


Good to see you Mel � thought for sure you had me on ignore by now.

You completely misunderstood me. I am keenly, painfully, horribly, nauseatingly aware of the fact that it was me and me alone who put my kids in this position.

Exposure didn't come up in my case. I told my kids about the A early on because I think they deserve to know what the heck is going on and, more importantly, I do not want them blaming their father for any part of this. I knew they would tell their friends who would tell their parents, etc., and that is all, every bit of it, on me.

Some of the stuff I have read on exposing seems pretty global. I didn't mean to suggest that the exposer has any culpability -- just that if it can be done with an eye towards protecting the children from the inevitable fall out, that seems preferable. Sort of a "need to know" standard. It doesn't apply to me so I have no way of knowing how it might play out.

Teenagers are teenagers. I worry. It's really one of my best skills.

And now I really am going to go do the $%&$%^& laundry.

It seems like you are minimizing your previous statement criticizing those who expose.

The reason that exposure is so heavily advised here is pretty simple: It is the best shot a BS has of ending the A....hence a very good way to protect the child/teen/BS/family further pain and suffering...more fallout, however you want to say it.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "need to know" comment. What have you seen suggested other than giving an age appropriate explanation that the WS is having an A, that this is wrong, and it is the reason for tension in the home??

The ONLY thing that would be preferable is there not being an affair to begin with. And do not think for one moment that every BS doesn't worry about any fallout or reprocusions. It's what keeps many in FEAR of exposing to begin with. The only thing the BS needs to really worry about protecting their children from is the WS destructive behavior.

Your initial statement really echos YOUR shame masked behind concerns for children........

Not2fun

Ps.......when nearly all had come to light in my sitch, I told my H of a new email account that I had opened when I registered to MB. I of course, did NOT want my H to find out about this place as I was in the midst of battling his affair. I then gave him the password......it was "stupid p-ick". I am willing to bet many BS's weren't much different than your H and I........



Sort of a "need to know" standard. It doesn't apply to me so I have no way of knowing how it might play out.

It is "global" for good reason, though. The more people who know about the affair, the more people to hold the affairee accountable. More is better in this case. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so getting the word out is always a good thing.

Exposure is good "for the children" [love that bumper sticker ] because the more exposed an affair, the more likely the affair is killed and stays killed. A little minor embarrassment is a small price to pay for an intact family, which is the most likely result from exposure.

As Steve Harley once said about exposure, "do everything short of taking out a billboard."

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 76 Hi SW

Great post!! You are a 2x4 warrior!!

I am so patient right now its untrue. I came home tonight after having a bottle of wine with a girlfriend and my H is in the bedroom next door, it took all my strength not to lunge into his room and give him the biggest hug ever. I miss him

SW - Do you live in the US?

Hitch x

If this were true, I would not have voluntarily told my children. I would have allowed them to believe the very logical conclusion they had reached -- that I had decided to end the M because of the way my H treats me. That is what they believed, and I chose to set them straight.

Assuming that I am not trying to do the right thing IS NOT HELPING ME.

So... I'm trying so hard to get it, but I can't.

There is a great line out of the movie "Ordinary People" where the surviving son says "I don't want to feel anything because when I feel, all I feel is bad."

I don't feel much of anything, and when I think about the A, I don't feel the slightest bit bad.

I think H deserves this, every bit of it. I think it is his turn to suffer at my hands. I think the playing field might just now be leveled.

Yea, I let him treat me that way. So what? He had an obligation not to. He made a vow to love, honor and cherish me. I made a vow not to sleep with other men.

Why does one vow trump the other? Where is the flaw in the logic of "you treated me like an object so...."

I cannot disconnect the circumstances in the M from the A.

I cannot, I cannot, I cannot. And it is NOT from lack of effort.

I say to H "I am so sorry. I should have divorced you." And he HATES that. He says "no, you should have told me how unhappy you were and worked things out." I did that, over and over. It's like he sees some middle ground I could have taken but didn't.

I get why on a societal basis my A trumps everything. But I don't get it in my heart.

So, you are now operating under the assumption that two wrongs make a right?

You are engaged in the logical fallacy of binary thinking. Both your affair and the way he treated you can be wrong in the universe.

The difference is, you are here, at a site named Marriage Builders.

If you want to cry and moan about your husband, this probably is not the proper website for that.

If you don't want to fix your marriage, if you don't want to accept in your heart the damaging impact of your affair, you are free to do so.

However, to expect folks who are participants at a site called Marriage Builders to cheer you on is rather unrealistic.

Work on it or not, I really don't care. Feel it in your heart or not, again, it doesn't change my life or the lives of those responding to you here.

One thing that I think makes an affair a bit worse. Dr Harley says that those who have both been betrayed and have been raped say the betrayal by their spouse is the worst thing they've experienced.

So if you want to continue to claim that your husband had it coming, if that's what you believe in your heart, then do your husband and favor and leave him now so he can get relief from your abusive heart-set.

Saddest,

I feel so sad. YOu stated earlier that you were used to a win-lose type of life due to your profession. I can see that.

I also understand that how he treated you colored your thinking about him.

But, did how you think about him mean that you should think less of yourself? That your children should think less of you? That you should bring dishonor to yourself?

This is not about making things equal (leveling the playing field), it is at best about balance and that does not mean equal.

I think you are here because you are in anguish about what you did to...YOURSELF. You should be. You are not so much in anguish about what you did to your marriage or your H, because you did not think much of either. Now you see the possibility of relieving your anguish IF you can make the marriage good. But, that will only happen IF your H joins in on this.

You are right he should have paid more attention, been more into the marriage, less angry. What is he doing now? He was wrong in how he treated you, is he treating you better?

And you, young lady, how are you treating him?

You said There is NO MIDDLE GROUND Saddest, none. At least that is my opinion.

This whole thing is very much like breakfast. The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. Your H and you needed to be and now need to be committed to recovery. His statement is disenginous (sp?) It was not all up to you to solve HIS problems. In fact it was NEVER up to you to solve HIS problems or address his behavior other than to walk away.

Your A was a complete betrayal of YOURSELF and your marriage. Only you can take credit for that. BUT, now and the future is about how each of you treat the other. Now honesty is required.

I realize you are probably still in withdrawal as your No Contact with OM wasn't all that long ago. However, you both need to sit down and discuss (not what has happened or even what will happen) how each of you views a good an rewarding marriage. You (both of you) need to focus on setting the bar where it needs to be for both of you to be happy, and THEN you can begin to discuss how to get over that bar. Don't do this until you both see the vision of the marriage that makes you both happy.

Oh, and radical honesty is for your spouse. You don't owe outsiders an explanation of your marriage or your decisions.

Saddest, you were/are correct, this is not like a court case where someone has to win and the other lose. This is a case where you both need to win.

Hang in there girl.

God Bless,

JL

We are treating each other very carefully and kindly. It's very different. Communication, although imperfect, at least exists. I ask him how he is doing with things, and what I can do to make him feel safe which seems like the emergency tourniquet needed.

I know his biggest fear is that I am going to leave him.

I went to see my pdoc yesterday and then H and I had a telling conversation. He said next time he wants me to ask my pdoc what H should be doing differently to make me happy. Hours later I thought "I should be telling him what to do to make me happy -- it shouldn't be coming from my pdoc." So I need to think about what those things are and communicate them to my H. I think I'll do the EN Questionnaire again this weekend. And maybe ask him to do it again too?

We also had a Greenmile inspired conversation last night. I was telling him something I am afraid of in the future, and he tried to fix it by assuring me my fear would never come to pass, which I translate into "you are being irrational". This has historically been the biggest LBer for me. You can imagine how I react to the suggestion I am irrational. I told him that when he tries to fix my feelings I can't trust him with them, that I experienced that as a DJ, and that mostly I just want to be heard. So there is some progress. Having an emotional language helps enormously.


Understanding the self betrayal was huge -- I self sabotoge a lot. H says he doesn't want to get hit with any more shrapnel.

Maybe I need to let the "getting it" part go for now and focus on today and the future. I have been thinking that unless I "get it" in my heart that the M has no chance and Enlightened Ex is right and I should let H go. But that may be my linear, logical thinking getting in my way again -- check the "getting it" box and move on to step 3. H doesn't seem to need to talk about the A, nor does he seem to be terribly torn up about it, but you never know with men. H seems very focused on being a good husband. I am very focused on being a good wife. Maybe I am just screwing that up by obsessing about trying to feel something I just don't feel.

I am fearful that there is something terribly wrong with me morally/emotionally that I don't feel worse.

Maybe I should just accept where we are today, let go of the stuff from the past and think only on the future. I'm going to have a global conversation with H after we take our S19 to college and see if I can get him on board with MB. To date he has been skeptical. I need a power point presentation and a spreadsheet or something.

Talking to SteveH again on the 1st.

Thanks you all.

Saddest,

Your "feelings" will be the last thing to come. However, they will come faster if you decide what you need to have a rewarding marriage. They will come faster if you know what your H needs to have a rewarding marriage. You said This is great, in fact it is better than great.

Now the only thing left to do, is finally focus the intent on the part of both of productively so that neither of you are using your effort in ways that are not appreciated by the other. This is really Dr. H's thesis. Well intentioned people often don't understand their spouses needs and how they need them met, thus they work hard, but get frustrated because their efforts are not recognized.


Saddest, you will "get it" as you learn more about yourself and your H. You will "get it" as you focus on being a person he is happy with, and he works on being happy with you. You will "get it" when the time comes. You two are just starting recovery and Harley says it takes on average two years for people to recover from an affair. You are just getting started young lady. Have patience with yourself.

Now if you want a powerpoint presentation, I think we can arrange it. But, what I think you need more is a plan based on your desires and your H desires. Discuss that, outline it, and then put it in powerpoint, if it helps you remember what you are after.

Saddest, in someways people like you are the hardest to get to because you want to argue and put things into a contextual frame that is not consistent with your goals. On the other hand people like you often make the most successful recoveries and have the best marriages. You just need to see the positives in your situation and learn to really appreciate them.

Must go but think about this.

God Bless,

JL

This hit me like a ton of bricks. "People". I'm a person. I have to recover too. I thought it was only him.

Wow.


We talked about this last night. He has been giving me a lot of domestic support which I REALLY appreciate, so don't get me wrong.

However, my number one EN is for conversation. I would prefer H go do something that interests him and have something besides the M or the kids to talk about at the end of the day (I always have stuff to talk about, it just doesn't interest him.) H said he is concerned/worried that he doesn't have it in him to meet this need.

This is of grave concern because my EN for conversation has been met by my D 21 and S19 for many, many years. I read the books they read and helped them with papers, etc., and we talked about religion and politics and social issues for hours on end. D21 has been at college for a while. S19 is leaving this week. In hindsight, I pre-replaced S19 with OM.

My pdoc says I am going to have to get that need met through friends, but MB says that is a bad idea, and I think I agree.

Help.

We also talked today about the fact that much of what brings him the most joy -- hunting and watching sports on TV -- are things that he does without me and that I have zero, zippo, nada interest in doing.

The activities that bring me the most joy, besides conversation, are all solitary pursuits.

We both like to hike and snow ski, but I always feel bad because I fear I am slowing him down which sucks the fun out. Plus, that's not stuff you can do regularly.

I am all in favor of him hunting and watching sports. To meet my EN, at least short term, I am signing up for a writing and Spanish course (oops -- now that I write that, I realize I forgot to run it by him), and investigating a book club.

I don't have any idea how to find common ground. I have been through Dr. Harley's activities list, and not a single thing resonated.

I'm not interested in much of anything he is interested in and he is not interested in much of anything I am interested in. What do you do when the only thing you have in common is a lot of years and kids together?

Help, again.


I actually wasn't kidding. I am putting together a power point presentation. I am working on immediate, short term and long term goals. I would like to get it down to one piece of paper that I can laminate (I LOVE laminating stuff) and refer to as a cheat sheet.

The problem I am running into is that all of my long term personal goals are inconsistent with being married (and I don't mean dating) to H. But that is a post for another day.

Immediate wisdom needed:

S19 is going to college this week. He continues to be vocally in favor of H and I divorcing. He is worried about leaving S15 in a war zone -- even said to S15 in front of me "S15, are you scared that I am leaving you alone with Mom and Dad? You should be."

S19 is a very powerful person in our family, a distinction he has actually earned so it isn't teenage grandiosity. I can deal with S15. Do I say something to S19 before I leave him at college or let it go? He knows about the A. I told him it's over, but I don't think he believes me.

Did you and your husband fill out this yet???

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/rei.pdf