baffled, I am a FWW, so realize from the get go I have never worn these shoes. But you and I do share one eternal thing in common - our faith. If you feel God impressing you to forgive someone....then doing your best to obey Him is the most important thing you can do. I admire your desire to do that, and I understand why even considering forgiveness would be very very hard.

There is no way I can get inside the mind and heart of the betrayed. So I will paste my DH'd words. They apply not only to me, but by his own statement, they also apply to the OM.

"Because I have been forgiven much, I too must forgive. But, I've also learned why Jesus suggested that we may need to forgive as many as seventy times seven. Sometimes the wound goes so deep that saying you forgive once and for all is simply not possible. It's like putting a bandaid over a stab wound. The hurt is so deep that it takes time and care. Such offenses cannot be forgiven just once, but must be forgiven over and over again. I'm thankful that God has the ability to forgive me once and for all. But, I'm not going to beat myself up for getting sad or angry again and again after a deep wound is inflicted on me. It is not a failure to be human and acknowledge the pain that is there. It is not a failure to realize that you need to lay it down again and forgive. I will make it a point to not pick at the wound. That will only cause the wound to become infected. That will hurt even more and will require much longer for healing. I will make it a point to put the balm of forgiveness on the wound each time it hurts me instead of picking at it. Eventually, the wound will heal. But, it must heal from the inside out, and that takes time. The scar will always be there as a reminder. But, the pain eases with each passing day. No, I may never be the same. But, I will one day be able to walk and leave it all behind. I will one day only remember the hurt when I see the scar. Then, I can be thankful that the pain is gone. When Jesus looks at his scars, does he think of me?"

Baffled, forgiveness is hard. It's not a one-time thing. And many many people - even experts - advise against it. But I have recently rediscovered that as a Christian.....there is really only one Book that I am accountable to follow to the letter. And the Person who wrote it has forgiven me of more than I can even describe.

Baffled

All I can say to you is welcome to this site. I wish that I had known about it before but, there is a reason why things happen the way they do.
Like you I am also Methodist. I keep begging God to see me through this very ugly time, I am not at the point of praying for WH, I am having too many conversations with God asking him to help me get through the next hour. I am only 4 months into my situation but I have discovered another side of me that I did not know existed, probably because I have never been so hurt in my life before by someone who I have trusted so implicitly. My world has changed and I know it will never ever be the same again, but I am at least starting to recognize that in many ways, that may be a a good thing.
Being able to come here and vent has been a source of great comfort although, sometimes I get no response and it only serves to maximize my pain.
But I keep on trying and so should you, just hang in there.

baffled, I don't agree that we are commanded to forgive without repentance. Jesus says otherwise: If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4)

Forgiving without repentance is not God's standard of forgivness for US, so it makes no sense to imagine that we have a higher - or different - standard than God. This is like saying we should forgive someone that even GOD has not forgiven. God does not hand out forgiveness like cheap candy to those who don't want it so why would we? Who are we to say that we are better than God and should forgive someone that he does not?

I agree that we should be willing to forgive those who ask and who are repentant but forgiving those who don't want or need our forgiveness is little more than an empty feel good measure that achieves nothing. It most certainly does not affect the offender in any way, shape or form. Empty, feel good, and meaningless.

The purpose of forgiveness is to reconcile with our brother. In the case of the OW, it would not be wise to ever reconcile with such a person.

Thankfully, one does not have to offer fake forgiveness to alleviate resentment. That can be done without an empty act of "forgiveness" that is unwanted or unneeded by the OW.

This subject is covered well in the book Bold Love by Dr Dan B Allender:

Biblical forgiveness is never unconditional and one-sided. It is not letting others go off scot-free, "forgiven", and enabled to do harm again without any consequence. Instead, forgiveness is an invitation to reconciliation, not the blind, cheap granting of it.

Jesus says, "...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4). Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is conditional. We are not to rebuke unless a sin has been committed, nor are we to forgive unless true repentance has occurred. This strikes many Christians as wrong...


The point for us is crucial. Reconciliation is not to be withheld when repentance-that is, deep, heart-changing acknowledgment of sin and a radical redirection of life-takes place in the one being rebuked. Nor is reconciliation to be extended to someone who has not repented. Forgiveness involves a heart that cancels the debt but does not lend new money until repentance occurs. ...cheap forgiveness-peace at any cost that sacrifices honesty, integrity, and passion-is not true forgiveness.
The authors go on to say that the Christian should remain open and receptive to forgiveness but forgiveness should not be cheap...

pages 162-163:

A forgiving heart opens the door to any who knock. But entry into the home (that is, the heart) does not occur until the muddy shoes and dirty coat have been take off.

So there remains a desire for forgiveness and redemption...

Forgiveness always involves the strongest emotions of the soul. It always beats with a fervor for the offender.....

Dr Harley, a bible believing Christian, touches on this subject in his article about forgiveness:

Try getting the OW out of the majority of your thoughts. But you do not have to "artificially" try and push yourself to FORGIVE HER!!!

Geeze. Would you forgive HITLAR????

You would be crazy to do that.

Your feelings of unforgiveness are very valid. Stick with them.

If she came crying and begging for forgiveness to you and you could see she was repentant, then...maybe then....only then....you could forgive her.

Baffled, I say again, the only Person you need to obey is the God you believe in...and the only book that really counts is His Word. I will never talk a person of faith out of a conviction God has given them....ever. Even if every citizen reports or ignores or whatever.

But wouldn't you challenge them to validate their "conviction" through the Bible? Our source is supposed to be the Bible, not our convictons. How else would I know that conviction comes from God unless I validate it? Believe me, I have had lots of convictions in my life, and some of them did not come from God! They came from my own wishful thinking.

As with any subject, there will be varying opinions on forgiveness. All I can say is that I tried to move on, get the continual and harassing thoughts of the OW out of my head, and I was not able to do it alone. And interestingly enough, Nancy DeMoss addresses Hitler and the Germans in her book, including excerpts from Jews who suffered greatly at their hands, but still forgave. In one instance a converted Dutch Jew, who struggled with his belief in forgiveness while in captivity, cries out to God, "I can't, Lord...how impossible is forgiveness of that magnitude!" But forgive he did, even going so far as to visit the dying commandant of his prison after the war, kissed his head, and brought him to Christ. Obviously, this was an extreme case in the grand scheme of things, but I tell you, thinking of forgiving the OW was as difficult for me as it must have been for this Jew! But as N. DeMoss continues, "For a Holocaust survivor, for you and for me, forgiveness is indeed a supernatural thing. It's not something we can do ourselves." And as I said above, I could not do it alone. This was MY way to release the anger and bitterness. If any of you is content to hold onto those, it's your choice. I just preferred not to. And as far as Dr. Harley's thoughts on forgiveness, and while I am very impressed with his approach to saving marriages and/or building strong ones, I think he's missing something on this subject. There's a difference between forgiving the wayward spouse and TRUSTING him/her. It seems to me that if one is constantly expecting "repayment" from the WS, never letting the WS forget the offense, then that marriage will constantly be filled with Love Busters and will eventually crash and burn. That doesn't mean that the WS is not held accountable, but if the OS is forever holding it over the WS's head, neither will move on. Forgiving allows the WS the opportunity to willingly an enthusiastically offer the OS the EN that were unmet in the first place. Now I haven't even decided myself if I want to reconcile with my WH. But if I do, it will NOT be in an atmosphere that continues to keep his As at the forefront of my thoughts, for then they continue to be on the forefront of his as well. Forgiving, for me, is just the best way of moving on - with or without my spouse. Forgiving doesn't mean that I have to ever be around the OW again or my H if that's what I choose. It means I free myself of carrying their sins around with me the rest of my life. Who wants that?

MelodyLane, Obviously, I am basing my thoughts on my own belief-system and specific authors who have helped me, just as I'm sure you are. In comparison,but also similarily, John MacArthur writes, "How can forgiveness between fellow sinners be compared with the forgiveness of an offended deity?...Scripture instructs us to forgive in the same manner as we have been forgiven. This idea occurs in two verses: Ephesians 4:32 "Forgive each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you", and Col 3:13 "just as the Lord fogave you." Some take the position that this teaches forgiveness should always be conditional. Their rationale goes like this: God forgives only those who repent. Therefore, if we are going to forgive in the same manner as we have been forgiven, we should withhold forgiveness from all who are unrepentent...To make conditionality the gist of Christlike forgiving seems to miss the whole point of what Scripture is saying. When Scripture instructs us to forgive in the manner we have been forgiven, what is in view in NOT the idea of withholding forgiveness until the offender expresses repentance. (Matt 6:12, 14-15;James 2:13;Matt 18:35; Luke 6:36-38. The emphasis is on forgiving freely, generously, willingly, eagerly, and speedily - and from the heart. The attitude of the forgiver is where the focus of the Scripture lies not the terms of forgiveness. Most of those who hold that forgiveness is conditional portray forgiveness as a formal transaction in which the forgiven one must repent and the offended party promises never to bring up the sin again. If this transaction has not occured, they say real forgiveness has not taken place. In some cases the offender may repent and ask forgiveness without prompting and forgiveness should be granted on the spot...but in most cases... the offended party must confront the offender and formally solicit repentance before he/she can forgive. In short, no act of forgiveness can occur until the offender asks for forgiveness. Sadly I have seen people who hold this opinion and become obsessive confronters...others nurse grudges, refuse to relinquish bitterness...justifying such attitudes because they are convinced they have no duty to forgive until the offender repents. While it is often true that forgiveness involves a two-way transaction, it is not tru of ALL forgiveness. There are times when forgiveness should be unconditional and unilateral, and there are other times when forgiveness must be withheld until the offender repents.

baffled, I think its important to ask oneself exactly WHY you want to adopt this brand of cheap forgiveness. I once believed as you did. As anyone else who believes it, they will be the first to admit that this type is forgiveness achieves one thing and one thing only: good feelings for SELF. ["i wanted to feel better"]

Like you said, it was to get harassing thoughts of the OW out of your head. It benefited the OW in absolutely no way, shape or form. It is a selfish act to forgive one against their will. It is purely for SELF.

I say that as one who once mis-used the gift of forgiveness in this way.

I will admit that when I did this one-sided forgiveness, I always made sure that others knew I had done it so I could get credit and attention for it. More of the same "feel good" behavior....for SELF.

Forgiveness by definition is a two way street leading to restoration of a relationship. It requires someone who is willing to be forgiven and someone is wanting to forgive. If you are to forgive me, I must be repentant; otherwise there will be no restoration of fellowship.

WE can't suppose that our standard is higher than God's. Who are we to forgive someone that God does not? God does not force his forgiveness on us like cheap candy, against our will. He objectively offers us forgiveness and the restoration of fellowship, but his forgiveness is not subjectively realized until we repent.

It was this verse that really made me think: LUKE 17:3-4
3 "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, `I repent,' you shall forgive him."

This is exactly true. And we both know that God does not force his forgivness on people against their will when they refuse to repent. Like I posted before, we should never suppose we have a higher standard than God.

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, `I repent,' you shall forgive him."

Continuing, MacArthur details the differences between the two kinds of forgiveness, which is where he connects with what you were saying MelodyLane. "It is a mistake to assume that verses like Luke 17:3 and Matt 18:15 are absolute prescriptions for every kind of transgression." MacArthur then addresses the kinds of misdeeds that require unconditional, unilateral forgiveness. If forgiveness is defined as a two-way transaction then no room is left for unconditional forgiveness. However, in believing in distinguishing the two, MacArthur details when to forgive unilaterally and when confrontaion with the expectation of repentance is expected - which is of course more serious offenses like adultery. "Sins that require confrontaion because of their potential for harm to the sinning person include serious doctrinal error, moral failure, repeated instances of the same offense, sinful habits, or destructive tendancies, or any other serious transgressions that poses a serious threat to the offender's spiritual well-being. In such cases, confrontation should be motivated by love and a desire for the offender's good. Such confrontation should never be used to gratify a thirst for personal vengeance, to punish the offender, or to fulfill any other self-aggrandizing purposes. That is why Gal 6:1 expressly says that those who are spiritual should deal with the sinning individuual...Open sin is always a scandal in the church and must be dealt with. it is not our perrogative to forgive those intent on living in flagrant disobedience." Another chapter goes into the steps involved when sin needs confrontaion including, confrontation in private, taking witnesses, telling the church, and the unfortunate regarding the offfender as an unbeliever if he/she doesn't repent, which is what I think you were addressing, MelodyLane.
But for me, MacArthur's folowing words are what I took to heart for my recovery; "Forgiveness certainly does not come naturally for fallen creatures. We tend to be driven too much by our feelings. Those who indulge themselves in bitter felings will find forgiveness does not easily germinate in such soil. Instead, the root that springs up is a defiling influence. It is hurtful not only to the bitter person, but to many others as well. (Heb 12:15) Forgiveness is often frustrated by negative emotions, lingering resentments, and unquelched anger. Some imagine, wrongly, that thay cannot forgive if they don't "feel" like forgiving...but forgiveness is not a feeling. Those who insist on being driven by passion will find forgiveness very hard indeed, because forgiveness often involves a deliberate choice that runs contrary to our feelings. Bitter emotions tell us to dwell on the offense. In contrast, forgiveness is a voluntary, rational choice to set the offense aside..brooding over an offense is no less a sin than lust or covetousness or any other heart-sin. A willful choice must be made to turn away from that kind of thinking...those who forgive invariably find that the proper emotions will follow: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you" (Luke 6:27:28) - those are all willful, deliberate, rational acts, not emotional reflexes...Forgiveness results in the lifting of many burdens. To grant someone forgiveness when he/she repents is to lift the burden of guilt from that person. But to forgive when forgiveness is unilateral and unconditional liberates the forgiver to enjoy the even greater mercies given in return by a generous heavenly Father,..."
And with that, I'll conclude my thoughts. This is what worked for ME. I don't expect everyone to agree. I'm not a debator or theologian. I just try to seek God in ALL things, even the heartache that comes from adultery, and this is how I have found peace.

Baffled, you have used many of the Scriptures I was referring to, so thanks for posting those. I think that the divergence comes sometimes when we think that forgiveness requires reconciliation. In other words, if a relationship cannot be restored, there can be no forgiveness. I think about the family friend who repeatedly molested me. He was like a second father. He never asked forgiveness, and I am certainly not going to seek a relationship with him. But I have forgiven him. And it is not something I shout from the rooftops. It just is. In the same way that some wear their "cheap forgiveness" as a kind of cloak of righteousness, some exude unforgiveness as a bitterness that can be seen, heard, and even felt.

I do not hold to the exact view of forgiveness as everyone else, not do I believe they have to hold to mine, just like the definitions of modesty, social drinking, the evilness of Harry Potter, and such may vary from Christian to Christian. I was not always this way. I grew up in a church where there was only one right way to do everything. Only one acceptable way to think. And with my addictive personality, I ate it up. It shook my faith a bit the first time I realized that someone who listened to rock and roll music could still love Jesus But we are going to share eternity with a whole lot of people who do not see every single thing the way we do, and you know, that really is okay.

I say all that, baffled, to say that I have recently been down this road on another topic, and I finally realized that I could either do what a human insisted I do, or I could do and be what I KNOW God wants me to do. Because of what I have been reading in the Bible. That got me some flak, and it will likely continue to do so. But I also realized that hiding in the corner in shame over what I KNOW to be right is not the answer.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide God wants you to do.

Thanks for your perspective, baffled. I don't agree for the reasons I gave, but we don't have to agree. Thanks for the discussion.

I will never forgive her. The wrong was to great, the remorse...there was none.

This thread couldn't have come at a better time for me.

My attitude from the start was that I would never be able to forgive OW. I don't even know when it happened, but I think I got to a place where I didn't think about her too much and (mostly) didn't feel angry when I did think of her.

But a few weeks ago, I heard a broadcast sermon (for work reasons) about how Jesus taught us about forgiveness and wants us to forgive those who have sinned against us.

Ever since then, I have been thinking a lot about it. I have prayed about it. I tried to tell myself since I wasn't bitter anymore that I did "forgive" her...I even said it out loud to myself. But afterwards I have been struggling w/conflicting feelings. I thought that maybe I had triggered myself and that was the cause for all these emotions.

No, it is because I can't force myself to forgive her nor should I. That was just causing me to feel MORE resentment, not less.

Thank you Mel for that post. I am at peace with the idea that should she ever ask for my forgiveness and shows remorse I can reconsider at that time. I feel so much better!

MelodyLane, I, in no way meant to start a great debate on forgiveness or to elevate myself to some higher standard than others by expressing my thoughts. And I certainly have not chosen, or am WORKING ON the path of forgiveness, just for SELF. Until this forum, and except in the privacy of my counselor, have I even addressed my forgiveness, or lack thereof with another person. I hoped that by explaining how I released the toxic burden of my husband's affairs, that maybe someone else might benefit. I certainly didn't expect to be attacked for my beliefs. My forgiveness is not cheap nor has it come cheaply. Unlike you, I did not attempt to make myself feel better by advertising that I'm a forgiving being and it wasn't done to benefit the OW, however I do hope they've repented. To quote MacArthur one last time, and then I'm just going to agree to disagree: "Unforgiveness is a toxin. It poisons the heart and mind with bitterness, distorting one's whole perspective on life. Anger, resentment, and sorrow begin to overshadow and overwhelm the unforgiving person - a kind of soul-pollution that enflames evil appetites and evil emotions. Forgiveness is the only antidote. Forgiveness is a healthy, wholesome, virtuous, liberating act. Forgiveness unleashes joy...God finds no pleasure in unending or excessive despair...Refusing to forgive is a sin. And it is a sin that is doubly destructive to Christian joy, because it not only destroys the original offender's joy, but it also diminishes the joy of the one who is refusing to forgive...it hinders worship and creates disunity in the fellowship. It is an extremely destructive kind of sin...unforgiveness hinders humility, mercy, joy, love, obedience, and fellowship...forgiveness is an essential part of undoing Satan's schemes...forgiveness is both a blessing and a means to further blessings. Those who refuse to forgive forfeit the multiple blessings of forgiveness. But those who forgive unleash multiple divine blessings, not only on those whom they forgive, but also on themselves. This is the very thing to which we are called." Who would CHOOSE unforgiveness??
If there are those who prefer to hang onto all of the negative feelings and destructive thoughts that stem from unforgiveness, then I hope they find a way to deal with them. But I can speak from experience, nobody wants to be around that bitter person,
and your mind and heart will never be at rest. Again, this is what worked for me. I'm a better person because of it, I can be the mother my daughters deserve by releasing the bitterness, I can hope for the future again. I can only wish the same for others.

I agree with this, Susie. Forcing a one-sided forgiveness does not resolve the problem. The key is to release bitterness and anger, which can be done without a one-sided forgiveness. I am not bitter and not angry and I have never forgiven the OW.

thanks lurioos2. I never dreamed my words could generate such division on forgiveness!! Your words just verified what I was trying to say...not all forgiveness comes with repentence from the offender. Many choose to forgive someone from their past who is long since deceased - can't hold out for their repentence then!!My desire for my husband's reconciliation with God is greater than for his reconciliation with me, while that would be nice. Ijust want ANYONE who has suffered the incredible pain of adultery to have that pain eased. Forgiveness helped to do that for me. Do I ever hope to see these other women out somewhere? No. But if for no other reason, I hope they repent so they don't do this to someone else!! As I said before, I couldn't get past the hurt and anger alone. Some choose a bottle of Jack Daniels, lots of chocolate, or spending sprees to dull the pain... I chose God, and forgiveness was just part of His instruction to me. Believe me, I am no saint and I have had to repent of my own sin, an on-going, crippling depression, not to mention those terrible thoughts I had about what I was going to do to the OW! And they were BAD! I ask God to give me the ABILITY to forgive as He does because I cannot do it on my own. I rejoice that you have been able to forgive your abuser. Forgiveness really does give us freedom for peace again, doesn't it?