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My wife and I have been through a lot and we are still together, but in looking back I can see that the root cause of all our problems has always been my inability to meet her need for financial support. I imagine my wife would disagree with that assessment, but most fights we've had start over my financial support. I can't meet her need for financial support. We're comfortably middle class, but she wants more than that. It's in her nature to be driven, and she is what I classify as "high maintenance". That term has a negative connotation, but she'll freely admit that about herself. She want's nice stuff, nice trips/vacations, a nice car to drive, a nice house, etc. She didn't come from that type of background, her's was a middle class upbringing, but she was married once before and her first husband had money. That marriage only lasted about 3 years and they had an amicable divorce. My family is somewhat upper middle class and I am part of a business that is owned and operated by my father and I (I have a sister who also has an interest in the business through a family trust). This is what no doubt played a big part in my being acceptable to her when we first met and dated. Since our marriage my financial support has never met her expectations and furthermore she feels that there is a lot more I could be doing to force my father to make sure I fullfil her EN for financial support. So not only am I failing to meet her EN for financial support she also feels that I am not standing up for our family to my father so that we all can benefit financially. This is just as sore of a point in our marriage today as it ever has been and is the biggest single threat to our marriage. As we know from reading Dr. Harley an unfulfilled EN is a cancer that simply doesn't go away, and yet I can't control father nor the economy in order to met her need. Everything else I do to meet her EN's doesn't count because as long as she feels there is more I could do to meet her financial needs that will always overshadow everything else.

I suppose the only solution to my delimma is to convince her that I am doing everything possible to meet this need. My problem with this is that she wants me to have a major confrontation with my father over the business, get him out of it, and then proceed with us as the sole owners. I�m not opposed to sole ownership, and ultimately that is what will happen, but our two timetables aren�t the same. There is some validity to her position but she also isn�t the most savvy when it comes to financial and business decisions. There are good reasons for me to remain affiliated with my father in business, and she�s not opposed to that either, as long as I am able to meet her need for financial support, which as I�ve said I�ve always failed to do...

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Wow, Broom, that's really interesting. I heard an expression like that, that you can move up, but not back down. Based on my experience with MB, I think time together doing things you all like can really bring folks together. Does your W currently work in this business or in this field? Maybe there are some solutions that would work for all of you. Like you said, you are trying to convince her you are doing everything possible, but that'sa solo effort, I think you two need some more sollaboration, working together. I think it would be easier to brainstorm and see as a family what else you all want to be doing. What do you think?


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Hi Broom! Welcome to MB!

Originally Posted by Broom
I suppose the only solution to my delimma is to convince her that I am doing everything possible to meet this need.


You could do this, but her need STILL won't be met. You may say - but that is irrational. You want to try to rationalize her out of needing this need. The thing about needs is that they are irrational. They are based on feelings. You can reason all you want, the fact of the matter is, she has this need and you must fill it as best you can.

I know the economy is tough and things aren't great. The solution to meeting ENs is Negotiation. You use the The 4 Guidelines for Successful Negotiation.

Dr. Harley has said frequently, that a man must work to achieve the lifestyle his wife wants. Now this may require going back to school or retraining. Often a woman will agree to a temporary setback for the promise of a more secure financial future. So I would suggest that you two read through the guidelines and actually sit down and clearly define the problem as you both see it. Make sure you are on the same page. Often, in this phase DH and I will find out that our assumptions of what the other really wants is wrong or off in some way. It makes it hard to find a solution if you aren't absolutely CRYSTAL clear on what meeting the need for FS LOOKS like for your wife and why she wants that - what her values are on this issue.

Then brainstorm to find solutions. You want to brainstorm like crazy. Every hairbrained idea you can think of to achieve the financial goals you have. Going back to school. Building a new business on your own. A hybrid plan incorporating different elements over a plan of years. You may even need to spend a few weeks or so marinating ideas in the brainstorming phase. Schedule brainstorming sessions.

Watching you ACTIVELY look for a solution to meet her needs is much better than having you try to 'reason' with her. I would say that though this doesn't achieve the dollar amount she needs for FS, just the fact that you are seeing her need as valid and working to actually achieve that goal would probably be more meaningful than saying "This is the best I can do, you just need to wait until it gets better."

Together you need to come up with a timeline you can BOTH agree on.

Remember, this negotiation needs to be safe. You must ABSOLUTELY avoid Disrespectful Judgement like saying she isn't business savvy enough to figure this out. If you are uncomfortable with a solution, you can say that - but telling her a certain idea is 'naive' will get her back up.

The principle of the Policy of Joint Agreement needs to pervade the argument.

Somehow - the two of you need to find a way to meet this need in a way that satisfies both of you.

I don't know what that solution will be - but I have no doubt with the MB principles that the two of you could find the solution if you ACTIVELY work to find it.


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Also - I would implement the complete MB system. It creates a romantic love that makes solutions easier to find. This includes:

Meeting needs (all her other needs while you work on FS)
Avoiding lovebusters
15 hours+ of UA time every week
Radical Honesty.

That will get you a long way to a successful negotiation mindset.


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Broom;
Has you income stayed basically the same since you met/dated/married your wife?

What were her expectations for your M? You have always been a solid worker/ honest earner?

Do you have any emotional needs re; this issue? (supporting your family?) What emotional needs does your W continually meet for you?

IMHO, ...in this economy, it is totally foolish to ruin a buisness strategy/partnership that is solid, in hopes of creating an unproven strategy to increase cash flow.

Radical honesty. Do not provoke a "confrontation" with your father, for god's sake, based on a motive of greed.

You have made an excellent choice to come here, broom. You are at a very crutial point in your M. Take your time, learn the entire MB system and proceed with caution.



Last edited by barbiecat; 09/20/10 03:34 PM.

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Also the usual
Ages?
How long married?
Any children?
Ages?

Does your W work out of the home?
Is she in school?


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in my opinion she's spoiled, used to getting what she wants and when she wants, especially in her previous marriage...you're right, she probably pegged you as "rich" by being part ownership of a family business, which meant that she'll be able to pick up where she left off.

as a husband and father, if what you make as a salary is supporting your family comfortably, then you're doing your obligation as a husband and father...if that means she's not keeping up with the kardashians then so be it.

If she wants to drive the top of the line cars and vacation at the top end resorts and live a beverly hills lifestyle, then she needs to go back to school or get a better paying job herself...i'd be damned if i would work my azz off, change careers or go back to school to keep her happy, b/c truth be told...you'll never make her happy...she needs to learn to be happy and content with what she's got and thankful she has a husband who can provide what's needed for his family.

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Originally Posted by mr_anderson
in my opinion she's spoiled, used to getting what she wants and when she wants, especially in her previous marriage...you're right, she probably pegged you as "rich" by being part ownership of a family business, which meant that she'll be able to pick up where she left off.

as a husband and father, if what you make as a salary is supporting your family comfortably, then you're doing your obligation as a husband and father...if that means she's not keeping up with the kardashians then so be it.

If she wants to drive the top of the line cars and vacation at the top end resorts and live a beverly hills lifestyle, then she needs to go back to school or get a better paying job herself...i'd be damned if i would work my azz off, change careers or go back to school to keep her happy, b/c truth be told...you'll never make her happy...she needs to learn to be happy and content with what she's got and thankful she has a husband who can provide what's needed for his family.


Just so you know, Broom - ALL of this advice is a Disrespectful Judgement. It's fine for Mr. A to say all this and say how he'd act in this situation - but if YOU were to have this attitude, talk this way or act this way with your wife it would be a HUGE love buster. And I mean HUGE. This is absolutely NOT Marriage Builder's advice.

This advice will destroy love between you and your wife and will damage your marriage.

It isn't your job to 'teach' your wife how to 'learn' to be happy and content with what she got.

I fully believe you can find a way to meet her needs and maintain Romantic Love in your marriage USING MB.



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As a man in a very similar situation (does not meet wife's pre-marriage expectations for what I would be able to provide financially), I offer the following perspetive.

It doesn't matter whether you or anyone else would view her EN for FS as unreasonable or excessive. She feels how she feels. Which is not required to be rational or reasonable.

You have a few choices. You can work like heck to meet her need. Push push push every day in every way to maximize your wealth and income. Even if this causes friction with your father. Show her that her EN is very important to you. Because you love her and want her to be happy. You may never meet her EN for FS. But you will be secure in knowing you tried to satisfy her need. Who knows, you may surprise yourself and get there sooner than you expect!

You can tell yourself that her need is unreasonable. Refuse to push as hard as possible, in order to avoid conflict with your father, risk to the business, etc. Your marriage will suffer, because you are quite clearly not meeting one of her most important ENs. But you may view that as the lesser of 2 evils.

You can divorce her, because you simply cannot tolerate being burdened by her being so high maintenance. However, if you want to avoid conflict with your father, imagine how he is going to react when her divorce lawyer quite properly asks that she be given a piece of the business. Especially when her lawyer starts arguing "the father is basically retired, my husband does all the work, unrelated partners would already have arranged for the senior partner to be bought out by the junior partner, but this family has refused to do that so they can pay me less in our divorce settlement"!

I am not suggesting you have to do what she wants. But Dr. Harley is not wrong to assert that if you aren't even trying to address her concerns, then you can't be surprised if she isn't as romantically devoted to you as you wish she was. Remember, her material ambitions were probably not totally unknown to you before you got married. You agreed to marry a high maintenance woman. So this is not entirely her fault.


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Lets look at it from another viewpoint.

NEEDS.

There are many needs such as financial support, domestic support,, sexual needs, etc in a marriage.

Lets compare your wifes financial support need to sexual needs.

Your wife wants financial support but AT A HIGH LEVEL. She wants lots of money to blow and spend. If this is classified as a NEED and not a WANT then we should compare it with the sexual need.

Sex is a need in marriage. But what if a husband THINKS THAT HE NEEDS sex every day. What if he FEELS THAT HE NEEDS anal sex. What if he REALLY FEELS HE NEEDS three way sex. What if he FEELS LIKE HE NEEDS to go swinging and have sex there.

Are these valid NEEDS? Or not?

Needs are not just what one spouse FEELS or WANTS.

True needs are needs. Basic needs of life.

This wife is going way beyond needs, what she is asking could be harmful for the family just like this man in my example who needs to have anal sex every day. That could cause harm.

IF a need causes HARM, is it a good need or a bad need? Are there good and bad needs?

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If my husband suddenly came to me and told me he feels he has this great need for anal sex every night, I would not be able to meet this need. I would not attempt to meet this need. I would not want to meet this need. In fact I would question his "need".

If he became unhappy because i was not eagerly meeting this need then we would have to have a talk. "Need meeting" in marriage that causes pain, disruption or harm are not worth meeting.

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I agree bubbles- you should not let yourself be abused in order to meet needs- but that is not what I am suggesting. For a particular sex need you know rift away you aren't comfortable with it- but has this couple fully explored and negotiated and brainstorm to even see if there is a way to meet this need? I think they'd be surprised if they actually TALKED about this and negotiated honestly.


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Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Lets look at it from another viewpoint.

NEEDS.

There are many needs such as financial support, domestic support,, sexual needs, etc in a marriage.

Lets compare your wifes financial support need to sexual needs.

Your wife wants financial support but AT A HIGH LEVEL. She wants lots of money to blow and spend. If this is classified as a NEED and not a WANT then we should compare it with the sexual need.

Sex is a need in marriage. But what if a husband THINKS THAT HE NEEDS sex every day. What if he FEELS THAT HE NEEDS anal sex. What if he REALLY FEELS HE NEEDS three way sex. What if he FEELS LIKE HE NEEDS to go swinging and have sex there.

Are these valid NEEDS? Or not?

Needs are not just what one spouse FEELS or WANTS.

True needs are needs. Basic needs of life.

This wife is going way beyond needs, what she is asking could be harmful for the family just like this man in my example who needs to have anal sex every day. That could cause harm.

IF a need causes HARM, is it a good need or a bad need? Are there good and bad needs?
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Have you filled out the ENQ, did she give you a dollar amount that she wants you to make?

How about this one, the financial support inventory? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4504_fsi.html

Why do you say this:

Quote
I can see that the root cause of all our problems has always been my inability to meet her need for financial support. I imagine my wife would disagree with that assessment

and this:

Quote
she also feels that I am not standing up for our family to my father

I caution you to make sure you're focused on fixing the right thing. It may not be money; it may be that she needs you to be independent from your FOO to respect you as the head of your household.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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I agree bubbles- you should not let yourself be abused in order to meet needs


And see...I consider it "financial" abuse when a spouse wants above and beyond what is needed to be comfortable...literally off the back of someone else (their spouse).

also...

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My problem with this is that she wants me to have a major confrontation with my father over the business, get him out of it, and then proceed with us as the sole owners.


seriously???

Wrong..wrong...wrong.

I see character flaws in this woman.

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My problem with this is that she wants me to have a major confrontation with my father over the business, get him out of it, and then proceed with us as the sole owners.

That is not the only solution - that is her solution, but have the explored and REALLY brainstormed to find a solution they are both happy with? Obviously not.

I think there is one out there.

Quote
And see...I consider it "financial" abuse when a spouse wants above and beyond what is needed to be comfortable...literally off the back of someone else (their spouse).

That is because your definition of comfortable is different than this woman's. Personally it is way beyond my definition of comfortable, too. But - that is her definition of comfortable. It is a DJ to get her to change that definition.

Also I doubt it is abuse - as it seems she believes that when her husband takes over the business she will attain her level of comfort, which indicates to me that he has the earning potential to achieve what her comfort level is.

Is it abuse when a husband has a need for DS? He's gaining a clean house at the expense of his wife's time - often as she's on her hands and knees scrubbing the floors.

Thus - some Radical Honesty, Pure Negotiation, meeting of needs, etc, can get them a LONG way towards a mutually enthusiastic agreement.

There are many possible solutions. Often a woman with a high need for FS will agree to a temporary setback, or to get a job for a temporarily specified amount of time to achieve her comfort level of FS in the understanding that by a certain time, her husband will be able to provide that.

She MAY be willing to work, providing certain criteria and circumstances are met. For example, her husband speaks with his father and they lay out a time line for transitioning leadership of the company. That is one possible solution. I am sure there are others.

So what if this woman has character flaws - HE as her HUSBAND cannot iron them out - unless he wants to destroy the love they have in their marriage.

He CANNOT change her.

I think that

Quote
she also feels that I am not standing up for our family to my father


this has a lot more to do with it than just a dollar amount. This indicates she has a need for ambition and that is ok too. Dr. Harley recently addressed this in his radio show. Women sometimes want their husbands to have a certain level of ambition, coupled with FS.

He needs to have a radically honest and safe conversation where they explore WHAT precisely it is she needs and they negotiate how he can meet that need.


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Is it abuse when a husband has a need for DS? He's gaining a clean house at the expense of his wife's time - often as she's on her hands and knees scrubbing the floors.


I believe that his WAS an issue that a poster took to Dr. Harley. Husband wanted the house scoured for errant crumbs and the chairs lined up in a certain way. If I remember correctly Dr. Harley told the husband that if HE wanted it done to this degree...that it was on HIM to either do it or hire it out to be done. He couldn't expect his wife to do it to HIS degree.

So even Dr. Harley thinks that sometimes its on the person who wants it to get it done....and not expect the spouse to meet a need.

In the hands a user..the expectations of having needs met could be abused.

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This is true - which is why negotiation is necessary. It doesn't matter who meets the need but that it is met. If DS is a high need Dr. Harley advises hiring out for help.

A spouse should DO HIS BEST to meet the need and failing that find a way to ensure that need be met. All I am saying is that there are avenues that the OP has not explored. All possibilities have not been exhausted. There are indications that he isn't even clear on what exactly her need is.

They probably think they have negotiated, but seeing only 2 ways to solve the problem and arguing about them back and forth isn't negotiation.

The solution isn't to do it his way, or her way but find a way they both like. I don't think she is being abusive, this isn't anal sex, this is achieving a certain lifestyle. A lifestyle he IS capable of achieving.

He isn't a poor Mexican immigrant with no command of English that she is expecting to run a Fortune 500. (That would be an abusive equivalent, IMHO). Heck - it doesn't even sound like she wants him to work 80+ hours a week, which is equally abusive.

I wouldn't be surprised if she WERE willing to take a temporary setback or even work herself, if she had SOME indication that her husband were ACTIVELY addressing her needs instead of saying "This is the best I can do, I can't do anymore". Especially when he's not even clear on whether the best he can do is even remotely addressing the problem.

I'm not advocating he kill himself to meet her need.

I am advocating clear, loving discussion of what their expectations are and using MB style Negotiation to meet those expectations. There IS at least one avenue they haven't used to solve this problem: and that is MB. Until they've gone down this road and the wife says "I don't care if you kill yourself trying you MUST make X dollars and I refuse to do anything to help you" then lets give her the benefit of the doubt.

They need the whole MB package in order to do that right. But it can be done.

Last edited by Vibrissa; 09/21/10 10:08 AM.

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Originally Posted by committedandlovi
Quote
I agree bubbles- you should not let yourself be abused in order to meet needs


And see...I consider it "financial" abuse when a spouse wants above and beyond what is needed to be comfortable...literally off the back of someone else (their spouse).

also...

Quote
My problem with this is that she wants me to have a major confrontation with my father over the business, get him out of it, and then proceed with us as the sole owners.


seriously???

Wrong..wrong...wrong.

I see character flaws in this woman.

committed

Sometimes a spouse is just unreasonable. I had a similar situation in that my now XH wanted me to get a job and I just felt like it was the most ridiculous 'need' of his ever. He made a very excellent income but wanted me to work for ever changing reasons. A new boat. An expensive vacation. So I didn't 'sit on the internet all day.' There was no amount of convincing him that I was NOT sitting on the net all day. No amount of convincing him that my need to care for my home and family was just as important as him having a new boat.

I had people on here trying to convince me that I should get a job to make now XH happy....the trouble is I know him very very well and he would have never been happy. If I got a job it would then have been 'well you don't make enough.' And I would still have been doing all the DS and childcare...and he would expect that because of course my job would not be as important as his...

Sometimes there is just no pleasing people.

I would not destroy a FOO relationship for someone who clearly values things over people.

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Originally Posted by committedandlovi
[quote]

I believe that his WAS an issue that a poster took to Dr. Harley. Husband wanted the house scoured for errant crumbs and the chairs lined up in a certain way. If I remember correctly Dr. Harley told the husband that if HE wanted it done to this degree...that it was on HIM to either do it or hire it out to be done. He couldn't expect his wife to do it to HIS degree.

So even Dr. Harley thinks that sometimes its on the person who wants it to get it done....and not expect the spouse to meet a need.


committed
You do remember correctly. I was leaning tword Vibrissa on this one, (good advice VB). but this is an issue that stuck with me last night. It is the difference between a need and a want.


BROOM, first; hear this.... You are NOT your wifes x husband!. Toss that thought out a high window. You are not expected to be him, nor be like him, or provide like him. what a yucky idea. skeptical

You are your own man/husband/father (?) with needs, too. You have to use your gut and common sense to provide for your family.

Last edited by barbiecat; 09/21/10 10:31 AM.

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