I recently found out my fiancee (together 5 years)has engaged in some lying that has completely shattered my trust. As a result, I did a little more digging (he's a cop...so this is very difficult) and found out some other issues.

We met many years ago....I was about a year out of divorce that contained other types of betrayals...mostly financial. Everything looked good with this new man...he did a lot of Plan A...lol Very, very skittish as I have children and dated slowy...introduced them slowly...All seemed well. We had some ups and downs as people do...especially blending into a family (though he had never been married, no children).

We went through a tough period last year and we decided to take a break...we had some guidelines on the break, which included not seeing others...staying committed until we decided together otherwise. We worked out our differences, and have been together ever since...We had been planning recntly to purchas a home, he selling his and a rental property, mine on the market...

He is pretty guarded generally, some personally related some professional...he recently left his laptop at home, something he rarely does...he uses it with some of his work related duties...carries back and forth some. Anyway, I decided to take a look because I have been burned before in my prior relationship...checked his thumb drives and found out a listing of passwords, accounts etc...Had some soft porn photos on there...but thats it..

Of special interest were two email accounts he had of which I was unaware...ironic...he never, EVER, emails me...doesn't everyone email? Anyway, I checked out the accounts and found some old exchanges and IM chats with a couple of girls back during our "time out", and one in particular...he clearly "saw her"...He also had an active eharmony account and was communicating with two women, one of whom he asked "when are we going to get together"...Mostly, the exchanges were harmless...but my stomach turned when I saw that...he represented himself as single...The girl he saw on our break, as more and more info came to bear...actually had been on our recently purchased boat!!!

When confronted, he claimed the boat girl was a girl a friend brought to a group thing...and they hung out...no contact, no sex no nothing...I figured he was lying...but had no way to confirm. Checked his phone records (I have friends), saw there reallty wasn't any contact in the last year, but I sent her a text anyway telling her to back off, he was in a relationship...and quit contacting...She played dumb and said, "what? he's just someone I hung out with at a thing...and Im married now..." Confronted him about the eharmony stuff...I told him he could come get his things, he was clearly interested in being single...he flew home from work (while on duty...he was home in like 5 mintues...)He was tearful..said he was sorry...he knew it looked bad... said it was just playful banter...when he got bored or when things difficult between us it was something "easy"....blah blah blah...i was very calm and told him to kiss my [censored]...Anyway, he committed to accountability, opened up all the accounts so I could monitor, shut down the eharmony...No activity since...

Okay..but I still smelled a rat...dug a little deeper..went on the account he emailed boat girl...and pretended I was him...she practically hyperspaced emailed back to me...so I started checking things out..in my exchanges..I learned she not only had been on my boat, but slept in the bed on my boat...saying "my favorite thing was being rocked to sleep"...Confronted him again with the emails...he was furious! "Said it was int he past, all over, he didn't do anything...why bring up trouble now...we trying to get past.." I said it fresh now cuz you didn't tell me all...I want toknow if they had sex, and he will deny...so I get back on to try and discuss with boat girl..and low and behold, the account shuts down...he changed the passwords...which I was smart enough to just go in and re-change...

Now, things are horrible...I have no idea where I stand...he seems to have a flirtation problem, especially under stress...but he IS weird about sex and diseases and I am not totally convinced he would just have a one night stand...

He is pissed right now, is totally now blaming me for minor relationship issues that are causing him to question...and it's all a mess...

Crappy thing is that 90% life is good...we enjoy our time, have fun, great sex life...he's awesome with the kids...we function like a little family. I am so confused...

Had him followed by a PI the other day, but he picked it up immediately...even told the PI he is a cop and to be careful...

I could use some help!!
Blueline3

It sounds like your fiancee feels entitled to a Secret Second Life. That is a breeding ground for affairs.

His complaint that this should be in the past is BS - it isn't in YOUR past, you JUST found out - this is your present!

Are you two living together? I really hope you aren't.

You need to lay out what it is you expect - complete and total transparency for LIFE. You know all his email account passwords, have access to his cell phone records, everything. He absolutely CANNOT build a SSL.

No - you weren't married when he cheated, and yes you were on a break - but the fact of the matter is he lies to you and sees no problem with it. THAT is troublesome. Along with his behavior which shows he will go outside of your relationship to get his needs met when things get rough.

These are all signs that this guy is not marriage material.

Have you had yourself checked for STDs?

I would advise you to read this thread

It is someone in a similar situation as yours - though not as deeply entrenched in the relationship.

Do you really want to go through the effort to restore a relationship with a liar and cheater who shows little remorse or desire to rebuild the relationship? Someone who is persisting in maintaining his second life?

If he is blaming you?

Kick him out

He is not trust worthy

He just failed your interview for husband material

changed his passwords again? Thats because he is hiding something.

Threatened your PI? Because he is hiding something.

Tell him if he doesn't change meaning, no more lies, no more blaming, and really wants to get married then he has to LEAVE and go do a plan B.

Bet you anything he'll move in with that "boat" girl

Are you friggen kidding me? You're even on here asking? I'd sever his sorry a$$, you aren't married! I sure wouldn't marry someone that was already having affairs! That's crazy! Are you scared of being alone or something? Show yourself some respect and cut him loose! What are you waiting for!

Blueline,

If you had a daughter or a good friend in this situation, what would you tell her? If you had a son in this situation what would you tell him?

This is not the basis for a good marriage if secrecy is the main method of operating.

I think you know the answer to this. I look forward to your response.

JL

Unless you want to be back on Marriagebuilders in two years I suggest you turn his butt out.

If this is how he treats you when dating do you think it will change with a ring on your finger.

I've read so many post where the BS has admitted that their boyfriend cheated on them before the marriage and they married them any way knowing this only to be cheated on later on in the marriage.

Ok. I am newly married and also a former bw by my ex husband.

Take it from me, if it walks like a darn duck, it's a duck. And with this duck, I'd say to "duck and run" as he is lying his butt off to you.

Of course they had sex. Remember the saying "it's the motion of the ocean"? That's what she meant (the ow).

Of course she willl lie, she has been probably told to lie and she showed you she was of course still in communication with him.

Unless he commits to serious couples' therapy and individual therapy with a mb counselor and is in recovery from this for over six months, I wouldn't give the man a snowball's chance in hell. But that's me. I lived and I learned the hard way.

You're like me, a divorced mom, and the LAST thing we need to ever do is put our kids thru any kind of trauma ever again or in a negative home environment.

I'd confront him as he is 100 percent doing the shift and blame game and see how you can recoup some of that $ wasted on his little loveboat. Get your money back on that now while the guy still has some shame.

Spending a night with a married woman tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about this man.

DUMP HIS @$$

Thank you for your responses...I appreciate your feedback...

Let me clarify a few points...

The "boat girl" was not and never has been married...was not at the time and I have now learned she still is single. She was telling me she was married "currently' to get me off her back by implying she had moved on and wasn't interested in my bf...

He did not threaten the PI.... I myself told the PI himself to be careful, that the bf was a cop and would be more hip to this kind of thin and so more stealth might need to be used. There was never any kind of confrontation or communication between them

Tempers have died down again and more productive discussion ensued. I advised the behavior is unacceptable and inconsistent with what I want and need in a relationship. It is inconsistent with my values and does not coincide with the type of environment I want for my children...

BF accepted responsibility and agreed to pursue consultation on the issue. This consultation resulted in disclosure of that time and he answered every single one of my questions, non defensively. He denies sexual intercourse. (I did get tested tho at last appt and all is clear)...He said he had her at the boat on a single, weekend overnight...lunch twice before that....He said he felt very conflicted, and stayed up drinking with his friends on the dock (they are like big patios, big screen tvs, lots of people...many nights people ARE up all night hanging out)...She allegedly had drunk quite a bit and wanted to sleep, so she went down to the cabin. A female friend, who knew we were sort of on a "break" but didn't know the details, confirmed she was there and saw him up with the guys..He mostly was quiet...She then said he and the boat girl left fairly early the next day...She said she never saw her out there again...She and her husband are out there fairly frequently. He does say, at one point during the evening, she had been drinking a lot, got "touchy", hugged him and kissed him on the lips. He said he felt "weird" and started to distance himself from her for the night... Note: I was watching this girl on Facebook and at one point last year she was pissed because "the guy" wasn't returning her emails, calls, or texts...and then made some bizarre comment about going back to her "cheatin ways" Good lord...nice Also note, most contact over the last year was her pinging him via text...on occasion there was single ping...then lot's of pings from her...and no more from him....


He apologized for his actions and advised he understood much would need to take place to try and think of repair...He apologized for his anger response, and disclosed the shifting of blame was due to his discomfort in facing his mistakes...and he knows he has a hard time hearing that feedback...

He admitted he was ashamed of his behavior...and was committed to resolving some of his conflicts because he doesn't want to represent in this way, that it was unhealthy for me, the children, and himself... He engaged the consultant in some processing of his early family life (punitive, unloving marriage between parents....surrounded by colleagues who complain and "hate" their marriages, lived single so long and developed bad habit of removing himself from conflict rather than withstand the difficulty of working to resolve, among other things...too easy to take focus of us, and the "easier" route of a new flirtation...basically developed a pessimistic view of marriage but believes now he needs to think for me, and for himself...and that their experience doesn't define us or him..)

He agreed to accountability...all accounts are open...cell...everything...He agreed to enforce identified boundaries, engage in protective maneauevers to contain this issue, as well as future...He agreed to continue to process the event...provide comfort and reassurance...He also said he knows he has difficulty revealing issues that trouble him, fearing they simply will "start trouble" and have no result anyway...He finds the relationship has some vulnerabilities, but rather than make quiet decisions about it, he would like to air them, work together to try and find resolution...even if it is hard...

That was all I could take in...

So I am kinda numb...My issue really comes down to this...I am trying to just reason out what has happened....and balance that with...I don't know..ideas about mistakes, forgiveness...benchmarks...Is this crisis more catastrophic than other crises you face as a couple...how do you work with failings and mistakes, profound regrets and hurt....Kick it away? Work with it? Watch it and see? I guess I can hard [censored] it and kick him out...problem solved...One person asked me a very important question...what would tell my children? Do I want THEM to see me as a one strike your out Mom? Or someone who loves, and will coach, mentor, help them become whom I know they can be? Tough question...Everyone has their "this is it" moment...My ego isn't defined by this...it is HIS issue...it hurts, it is a violation that has a whole host of implications...but ultimately do I want to be seen as a resource when things get tough, or the "I showed his sorry [censored]"...I think there may be a "this won't be tolerated, you have committed a felony offense, and will see what you do and we'll provide support...this is an ultimate benchmark that shows you cannot be loving to us in a functional way...further failure will cause you to be placed on the outside"....you know?

What do you think?

I have been hesitant to post here, as my advice is most definitely colored by having been the wayward spouse. However, Blue, your latest post is along the lines of what I was thinking/hoping.

I would suggest a "sleep with one eye open" approach. He does the work, you see if you want to work to rebuild the relationship. However, if it any point in the future any of these things come up, he cheats, whatever, he is out. He has had his chance.

The risk, obviously, is what if he does do this again. Ask any betrayed spouse here, ask the Harleys, and I think you will find that the betrayal is worse than anything else. I can't advise you on whether or not that's a risk you should take. That's for you to decide.

Here is some history for you. In college, I told a guy - not my DH (boyfriend at the time) - that I loved him. Not because I really did, but because I had weak boundaries, weak character, selfish and entitled behavior, you name it. I liked the attention and I wanted to "hedge my bets" if things didn't work out with DH.

DH forgave me, we moved past it, we thought we addressed it. Obviously, I didn't address it appropriately - just a handful of years later, I had a full-blown affair.

What do you think went through DH's mind after D-day?

I tell you this because you're at a fork. This isn't advice, not sure why I'm posting other than feeling compelled to say "give him a chance" and also "consider this a warning." You can use this opportunity to make sure he learns, he gets it, and he has one final shot moving forward. Or this can be a warning, as all of the previous posters have said, and you should head for the hills.

I don't know. I'm on my last chance, and I'd give anything to have "gotten it" after my first lapse so that a second didn't happen.

You'll have to be the judge.

I vote for punting.

I like the visual.

Knowing what you now know about his character, do you want to marry him? The whole thing about your kids and the one-strike mom thing is, imho, a load of BS. Your kids don't want to see you hurting and they don't want to be in an unsecure environment. The BEST thing you can do is take swift action when your family is threatened. You can show them how to forgive from afar. Send away the sinner and pray for their redemption.

It's not your responsibility to fix him or give him a second chance. You're not his mommy or life coach. You should be viewing him with a critical eye as to whether or not he is worthy to become your husband and kids' stepdad. And unless you like lots of drama in your relationships my vote is for--NEXT!

Mrs. Vanilla: I am glad to have your feedback...so thanks for providing....I know I am uninterested in living a life of anxiety worrying about the security of my relationship...Don't get me wrong, I think vigilance is needed, constant attention to maintain a loving partnership, but I don't want to be constantly questioning is he even IN the game....What made you jump in...to "get it" now...? What did your husband do to help you turn the corner....He sounds like a pretty restrained, giving person....much to appreciate there...

Blue, "restrained" and "giving" barely scratch the surface of The Awesome That Is My DH.

I'll try and answer the questions you posed, but first I wanted to revisit the idea I was discussing earlier. (Sorry, I'm not the most articulate at times. Verbose, yes. Articulate? Not so much.)

I think it boils down to this:

* I am 100x the wife, mother, person now than I was before my affair. In my husband's own words, everything I am and do now would be above and beyond what he would have desired previously. As I am now, with me "getting it," we would ostensibly have it all.

* Even with all that, what we have now (regardless of its taint from adultery) is in no way worth the pain of betrayal.

* I think you are at a point where you can still have the first without the pain of the second. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's wishful thinking.

So that's clarification on that. Probably more for my own benefit than anything else.

As for your questions, see the following post(s).

First, I should note that a WW is often a vastly different creature from a WH as far as how entrenched the affair is, de-fogging, and "getting it" in perpetuity. So all of the things that worked for me - seeing my DH's emotional responses to my betrayal, e.g. - may just drive a WH away.

Also, a timeline is important, I think, for you to see if there is any significance for you in my experience. I confessed my infidelity to my BH. Prior to that, things were craaaazy in our relationship/home in ways that only a WS can create. Without knowing about MB, my DH Plan A'd me. It was HUGELY important. Even if it made me intensely uncomfortable and upset with him, it still registered. It made me feel there was a safe harbor, there was love, there was hope. That was important in both my decision in confess and how we've navigated recovery since.

I was essentially NC w/ the OM, (not knowing that crossing paths at the gym broke NC), and that was driven more by OM at first than me. So I was already disillusioned with the A, and was starting to look around at what I had done to my life and think "WTH am I doing?"

All this to say: The biggest thing about "getting it" is that the WS has to be ready for it. Does that make sense? I wasn't ready for it, I didn't appreciate or know nearly enough w/ my first betrayal in college. The WS has to hit bottom.

What helped me get it this time, though, what helped me hit bottom, were the very real consequences of my actions. I knew there was no messing around. My DH's reaction to D-day showed very clearly that my foggy assumptions and history rewrites were most certainly not the case - he let me see his hurt, his anger, his love. And there would be no fantasy. It was very obvious just how much I would lose if I didn't shape up - no caring spouse, no family, no FS, no ENs met, nothing. We got a legal divorce so he would know I was not sticking around for $, and that divorce included provisions for his primary custody of the kids.

That example actually illustrates 2 points: 1) that's how much the WS has to be willing to risk to try compensating for their infidelity**, and 2) I know what's waiting for me if I think of messing up again.

(**Disclaimer: certainly a divorce is NOT very Marriage Builders at all, and many, many here discouraged me from going along with it. Heck, I went back and forth on it so much anyway. But it is what it is, and DH has said he probably would not have stuck around if we hadn't done it that way.)

ANYway. There is only so much you can do to help them "get it." At your juncture, I would say your BF could turn things around. You have to have your own boundaries, he has to know there are consequences that you will enforce, and, most importantly, he has to be on board with recovering from this and demonstrate - by his actions - that he "gets it."

Ugh, I feel unqualified and unhelpful. Sorry . You may find the boards a little less helpful in your situation w/ the WBF (and not a WH), but you should definitely read, read, read.

Are you able to counsel directly with the Harleys?

I opt for the punt too. Whatever you get a taste of while single will be your diet while married and that's not the kind of menu I'd like. You go ahead and do what you think is best, but I stand on saying he's shown you a glimpse, now I'd pay attention to it.

I like the way Maya Angelou puts it: "When people tell you who they are, believe them."

Mrs. Vanilla:

I find your insight very helpful...I do get a bit confused when I consider all the feedback...everyone says basically kick his a$$ out..which seems contrary to the theory governing the site...but, perhaps because we aren't married somehow the committment seems less...I don't view it that way...I mean, if I am in, I am in...and we are working as partners...

I think my guy is chewing on things deeply...We met for dinner last night...and he talked for hours...something he rarely does...talked a lot about the conditions that set up his vulnerability, his lack of protection...he admitted to the selfishness inherent in his action...that a "drift" in attention certainly could cause a momentary uplift, but the future completely unpredictable and unknown...stupid really...doesn't solve anything and certainly puts our situation in a precarious position...complicating everything...

He opened up about his concerns...how he experiences difficulty with balancing his EN for time (I have four children...and you KNOW there isn't a lot...but I am aware of it and work to meet that need), affirmation ( he understands now when he distances, it confuses me...I don't react super well probably, going quiet myself...only fueling LESS affirmation..it's all a cycle...add to that the fact I don't trust now, well...investing is difficult...everyone pulls back)...All good information...It was clear he has a strong "self" orientation...and he admits that...that he struggles with what he wants with what we all need...We were talking actually about my little guys...My son's play football and they really want him to come to their games...He is reluctant because he and my ex have not "blended" well..lol...In order to protect them against anything inappropr and also keep him comfortable, he rarely goes...This is an example of his focus on self, it adds distance to the relationship, makes us feel less "together", and we feel a little rejected....In order to love me, he has to be with all of "us"...ultimately, the demands of "all of us" may not be tolerated...He has been alone a really long time, able to focus on himself, his pursuits, all his resources and energies...He never has had to be a "giver"....I think, at this age, he is finding out that he is missing some enduring love and companionship...and he is simply wrestling with it...Combined with an unloving childhood and family...in some ways I think this is new for both of us...

It just may be he can't do "we"...and that won't work for us.

He did say in order to do "we" he needed to reorient his thinking to protect, and enact stronger boundaries, and work with me to express when he feels difficulty to identify if there is a vulnerability in a direct and honest way, address it together, and evaluate...Sounds good...just have to see...

One thing he said though..which I thought was fascinating...He was talking about how, in the past, he had dated women with children, but their time wasn't so split. He felt they could drop everything and travel, or go to a last minute concert or whatever...He added, "they were not good Mom's though...and you are..." It was so odd...like ...why would you want to be with a woman who wouldn't priortize her children (like his Mom..)...My example is a caring, loving person to those important to her...including him. And it means sometimes his needs are delayed...but that is life with children.

So, he is on notice inapprop relationships will not be tolerated. And he said he will work to protect against that...

Now, for the larger issues...if he can adapt to less "self" and I can get even less sleep to meet his EN...that is the next issue...lol

CWMI:

Of course, but I also wonder about the evolution of people...as time passes and experience is gained, conditions change...mistakes are made...do we accommmodate and work with it...or dump it...How can we ever coach for change unless we are willing to be givers? I am not saying taking abuse...but even criminals get the chance at rehabilitation...lol

Because this place is MARRIAGE builders, not RELATIONSHIP builders or TWO PEOPLE SHACKED UP builders.

There is a WORLD of difference between dating and living together that our society has worked to erode, and the end result is situations like yours, and a few others that show up around here occasionally.

Some definitions:
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

To YOU you've made a marriage-like commitment, which is a 'buyers' agreement. It seems like your fiancee waffles between being a renter and a buyer.

Living together ENCOURAGES a renter's agreement, which is detrimental to the long-term health of a marriage. Renter's habits which form during a living-together situation are not sustainable in marriage and will actively undermine it's strength.

As people grow, mistakes ARE made, but a buyer mentality creates interdependent change between two people, a renter mentality makes it so eventually people outgrow each other.

You never bothered to get a REAL commitment from him, and so he acted like the free agent he is. Dating and 'living' together is a TRAIL period. It is to DETERMINE if someone is marriage material. It is a job interview for marriage. When you unnaturally extend dating into living together, when you create a hybrid between dating and marriage, it is a recipe for hurt and failure. Because dating is TEMPORARY.

When someone decides to steal from the cash register during a job interview, do you GIVE them the job? Of course not, you'd be crazy to do so. And if you do, don't be surprised if they steal from you while they work for you.

Similarly - you are NOT married and you've made no 'real' deeper commitment than to live together to SEE if you're marriage material.

He cheated.

He isn't.

Like the store owner with the thieving applicant, the smart thing to do is walk away.

Now - if you'd actually cared enough about your relationship and each other to MAKE a real commitment, not a shallow shadow of a marriage commitment, but the ACTUAL get-up-in-front-of-God-and-everybody commitment to marriage, then your situation would be more like finding out a long-term employee is stealing from the register. Now, you may still want to fire him, but maybe not, maybe you feel bad for some difficult circumstances that employee is going through and so you decide to give him a break.

Your boyfriend can't handle fidelity in the 'job interview' that leaves little hope that he can handle it in REAL marriage.

Here is an article detailing the dangers of living together before marriage:

Living Together Before Marriage

And a few posts that deal with the importance of marriage in our society:


And why advise when dating is different than advice when married:


Could your fiancee BECOME marriage material, sure. Should you stay with him? That's for you to decide. I wouldn't.

But there are valid reasons why you are encouraged to leave him. We want to strengthen MARRIAGES. Sometimes that includes telling people when it is a BAD idea to get married.

I hope things work out for you.