Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,879
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,879
Originally Posted By: jal7788
but the timing is not right.


I guess for her cheating on you in front of your face was not timing right either right?

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
jal,

Even if all contact has really ended, which I am doubtful of, because she is still hiding details of her A, it will keep her stuck and prevent you two from moving forward in a recovery.

I would sit her down and tell her that YOU are hopeful that you two can build a wonderful M, if but that you are going to require some things:
~ polygraph
~ NC letter
~ Establish EPs
~ spend 15 hrs UA minimum a week together, using the MB plan

She isn't going to like this at first because she is used to getting her way but she will respect you in the end for requiring more from her and more for your M.

You have to acknowledge that you are terrified to lose her and that that fear has paralyzed you to the point that you have allowed her to walk all over you in the past. You need to establish some boundaries and raise the bar for your R. Dr. H's requirements for recovery (under the basic concepts) is the template you should use for your Plan. The plan shouldn't be accepting the crumbs your WW throws at you...


Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,965
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,965
Quote:
No, agreed, I won't leave the house.


Then this has been a good day.

Get Surviving an Affair ASAP

Read up on Plan A here in the site and get started. See Scotlands thread for newbies. I think it has been bumped up in the last hour.

Get a GPS in her car ASAP.

Get a voice activated recorder in her car ASAP.

Others here have indicated that your WW is going along with things just a little to easy. I agree. Stay vigilant.

If she wants to go clubbing again soon and I expect she will, see if you can get a PI for that night. Yes I am serious.

What will your boundry be if she flaunts an OM in your face in your house again? You need a firm plan and the courage to enact it. Your daughters need you.

Plan A with very limited relationship talk.
Read.
Read.
Do.

Good luck jal.

Last edited by chrisner; 09/21/10 03:27 PM.

Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It aint just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 650
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 650
Quote:
but the most important thing I can do is forgive WW and move forward improving myself and investing more into this marriage.


You sound like you are afraid of your wife - why? She's cheating on you, if not with this guy, then with someone else. What has made you become a spectator on your own life?


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
J
jal7788 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
I've ordered three books--Surviving an Affair, His Needs, Her Needs and the third on romance. I guess I have quite a bit a reading and learning to do. I am very concerned it could happen again or the OM of a month ago can be revisited. It's not that I'm afraid but confused. I was caught totally off guard. I'm wondering if it has happened before? I've done a lot of business travel in the past. Polygraph? That's a bit extreme. What would I ask her?--she has already admitted the EA.

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
Polygraph is the only way to KNOW you get the truth. Your wife has had an affair, man. It's already extreme.

Polygraph is the only way to rule out a PA, which my instincts are saying occurred. Maybe not sex, but there was SOME physical act.


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
I can tell that you are overwhelmed. I am going to break it down for you...

Originally Posted By: jal7788
She has admitted she has "crossed" the line but shows no real remorse for it. She is not even sure if she wants to stay in the marriage or if she loves me anymore.

This with some other things that you have described is what we call FOG.

You are a few weeks into NC and you should see this lifting. When you don't, it is a big redflag redflag that 1) there is still contact/the A is still ongoing, 2) that you haven't gotten the whole truth yet or 3) both #1 + 2.


Originally Posted By: jal7788
So what do I do?

What is prescribed to help the de-fogging process is:
~ exposure
~ polygraph to make sure you have gotten the truth about whether there is any more contact and the full extent of the A
(when you request this, it also demonstrates to the WS that the BS isn't willing to settle for half-truths)
~ having some boundaries for what you will accept in R (Hint: USE DR HARLEY'S REQUIREMENTS FOR RECOVERY!!!)

Good luck!


Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
J
jal7788 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
Thank you for your continued input. What difference does it make if some physical act ocurred? Let say she passionately kissed the OM? Or held his hand? The fact is had an EA is bad enough, right? Do I adjust my reponse? I want to make my marriage better but she tells me she is not ready to make that committment. Now what? What leverage do I have? Move out and leave my children? I'm looking forward to the strategies in the books I've ordered. I guess she feels she is giving me enough by the fact that she has cut of contact. Of course I want more, but I can't force her to give more, can I?

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
No, the level of detail doesn't really affect the chances for recovery and we aren't saying you can't recover from a PA.

The problem is that if she is holding back secrets it will keep her foggy and also lead to a lack in intimacy. (Read the Policy of Radical Honesty)

We are not saying that you need to know every single detail of what they did either. But should you know if the A went PA? YES


Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
JAL,

You have been getting excellent advice. I will respond to your questions to me and others.

You asked the following questions
Quote:
No she hasn't requested forgiveness. She has admitted she has "crossed" the line but shows no real remorse for it. She is not even sure if she wants to stay in the marriage or if she loves me anymore. So what do I do? Leave? Rub her nose in her bad behavior? She has told me she has had NC and I have been able to verify, to some degree, this is the case especially through her actions and behaviors. I believe this was an EA. I could be wrong. What difference would it make? Shouldn't I forgive for my sake? Otherwise, I will make myself crazy.


NO you don't rub her nose in it, but you need to do an internal check and figure out what your boundaries are. Then you protect those boundaries. You sure don't leave, if anyone is leaving it should be her. What you do is seek good advice.

Personally, I would strongly encourage you to call the Harleys and set up a counseling appointment. This is what they do, and they do it well.

I would also sit down with your daughters and have a talk with them about this situation. You need to allow them to voice their opinions and thoughts on this matter as they are strongly affected by this affair.

You asked what difference it makes if it is an EA or a PA. For one a PA is often an indication of how deep the feelings for OM your W has. Most women attach emotionally before they go to PA. If that has happened then this is not just a 2 date wonder, and her actions indicate that she is deeply attached. She did this right in front of you and your daughters suggesting a deep attachment to OM and repudiation of you and your daughters. It is really for you to determine if it makes a difference.

As to forgiving for your sake, yep you should, but I repeat what are you forgiving? YOu don't know, and she has not sought forgiveness. It is not uncommon for a WS to never apologize but if they don't seek forgiveness then something is up.

As others have pointed out, she may be in withdrawal or the affair is continuing but in either case the WS is most often in the "fog" where they only think of themselves and no one else. Hence you really need to be there for your daughters.

I would strongly encourage good promarriage counseling.

God Bless,

JL

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
Stop talking about moving out!!!

Just stop it!

THAT is not your leverage.

Your leverage is your willingness to remain in the marriage. If the marriage ends you STILL DON'T LEAVE. You let your wife leave.

Cutting off contact isn't NEAR enough.

She needs to understand the level of betrayal she has committed. You need to understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

Going NC is the FIRST STEP to recovery.

After that you demand Extraordinary Precautions to preclude the resumption of an affair. In order to do this you need to know what boundaries were violated.

Then you must have a plan to restore the love in your marriage.

You can't force her to comply - but you can make complying a requisite for a chance to rebuild the mess she's made.

YOU have the power here, not her! TAKE IT!


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: jal7788
Thank you all for your input. I will invest in an VAR but the most important thing I can do is forgive WW


Jal, the most important thing for your marriage is for her to EARN your forgiveness. It is ok to be willing to FORGIVE, but it is inappropriate to forgive her while she is still in the process of robbing the bank [metaphorically]. She needs to know you will forgive her if she EARNS IT but it is not an entitlement for waywards.

There is a better way to achieve forgiveness that benefits your marriage:

From Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.
continued here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 688
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 688
**edit**

She had sex, something he said made her feel her age, and she probably called it off, but she WILL have another A, I'll garuantee it. She needs a polygraph. If she comes clean a year from now you will feel exactly like you did 4 weeks ago. You need to get her to come clean now! You also need for her to MB. The A is her fault, but she was lacking something that you haven't provided and you need to know what that is so you can put EP in place.

Last edited by Revera; 09/21/10 09:47 PM. Reason: TOS personal attack
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
J
jal7788 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
How do get her to understand the level of betrayal she has committed? Believe me I understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

Going NC is the FIRST STEP to recovery. I believe this has taken place but I am not naive enough to think it can't happen again.

How do I "demand" Extraordinary Precautions to preclude the resumption of an affair. I can't get her to talk about what boundaries were violated (not yet anyway).

Shouldn't I plan to restore the love in our marriage first to get to the previous queries?

I would love WW to want to earn forgiveness, but I don't think she understands how deeply she has hurt me.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 940
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 940
Originally Posted By: Vibrissa
She needs to understand the level of betrayal she has committed. You need to understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

This cannot be emphasized enough. My WW had an EA. To this day, she does not fully understand the level of betrayal and the amount of hurt that SHE caused. Please, do not ever think that you had a part in causing the affair between your wife and POSOM. You did not.

Also, when considering the depth of damage, keep in mind that BOTH of you have been damaged. Your WW has been damaged by her own actions and the actions of the POSOM. It is quite possible that you will start repairing the damage to yourself - and even recover to some extent - before WW does. I believe that my WW hasn't recovered from the EA simply because she has yet to understand that SHE was responsible for bringing another man into our marriage. This just hasn't sunk in, and only when it does will your WW (and mine) be able to ask for forgiveness and start the healing process for all.

I have been through a number of false recoveries over the past 11 months. Please listen to the advice that you're getting so that you don't have to suffer the same fate. I waited too long to demand respect. Don't make the same mistake.

God Bless


Me: BH 60 - Married 21 years
ExW had an EA beginning 09/09 (Facebook)
After a few false recoveries, I filed for D 05/11
D final 03/12

'Be Mindful of Your Many Blessings and Endeavor Daily to be Worthy of Them'
Jay Severin

'Life is a gift and it offers each of us the privilege, the opportunity and the responsibility to give something back by becoming something more'
Tony Robbins
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: jal7788
How do get her to understand the level of betrayal she has committed? Believe me I understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

Going NC is the FIRST STEP to recovery. I believe this has taken place but I am not naive enough to think it can't happen again.

How do I "demand" Extraordinary Precautions to preclude the resumption of an affair. I can't get her to talk about what boundaries were violated (not yet anyway).

Shouldn't I plan to restore the love in our marriage first to get to the previous queries?

I would love WW to want to earn forgiveness, but I don't think she understands how deeply she has hurt me.


Jal, I would set her down and tell her how devastating her affair has been to you and to the future of your marriage. It will be critical for you to use this time to raise the bar in your marriage or it won't recover. If you lower the bar and accept teh status quo, you will end up with a cripple marriage.

It won't recover by accident. There has to be a viable action plan otherwise your marriage will limp along critically wounded until she finds another affair partner.

You cannot restore the love in your marriage without a plan. It will not happen by magic.

The solution is to set her down and tell her that you are willing to forgive her and stay in the marriage only if she commits to the recovery of your marriage. OTHERWISE YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED.

As it is now, she probably believes that you will do nothing to stop her abusive behavior and that you have no boundaries whatsoever. If there is no PLAN of recovery, you are facing a slow death of a thousand cuts.

Tell her: "here is what it will take to keep me interested in this marriage":

1. a no contact letter to the OM

2. complete and total honesty about your affair

3. a change of the environment that led to the affair: ie clubbing, opposite sex friendships, etc

4. transparency of cell phones, email passwords, etc

5. committment to a recovery program that will restore the romantic love in our marriage

"Dear, if you would be willing to do these things, I would be willing to forgive you and stay in this marriage. But, I will not stay in a damaged, loveless marriage."

If you raise this bar in this way, she will likely wake up and meet your standards. If she doesn't meet these standards, your future is very bleak because a failure to recover from an affair means a crippled marriage that most often leads to repeat affairs.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
J
jal7788 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
The key then is to get the WW to acknowledge her damage. But HOW do you get her to do this IF she doesn't believe it was a BIG deal??

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,820
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,820
hi there,
we all understand that you don't want to break your family up and that you want and love your wife.....
but the affair has to stop and she has to understand how she got to the place where she could have an affair, and she needs to put a plan into place so she is never in any kind of position to ever repeat.
You have to communicate and fill each others needs and both work on fixing what is wrong in the marriage.
your wife is still in the affair fog and will be for a while.......she is acting like it and talking like it, they all do it......
she doesn't even seem to be to put off by your daughters reaction, and good for them by the way..........
she is seeing only what she wants right now......
complete no contact with OM is necessary.......
complete transparency on her part with all communication devices......all her time should be accounted for......
If she is not willing to abide by the rules, ask her to leave, tell her you love her and are willing to work on the marriage, but not while there is a 3rd person involved............
tell her this is not acceptable and it never will be.....tell her you will move on if her choice is the relationship with the Om and that she is free to go and find the happiness she thinks exists with him.
Expose to everyone around you.......take care of yourself and your girls financially. These things can be reversed easily but she will see you are serious about not putting up with the disrespect......
she is cake eating right now, getting something from both of you, let her feel what it would be like with the support of her family.....do you really think the OM is up to filling all her needs.......not on your life, he is only in for one thing, not responsibility, if he was in that position I'm sure he would run for the hills......


BW 56
WH 57
Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
DS 23, DS 25
D-Day Nov 23/09
NC Mar 1/10
Working on Recovery
Grateful for finding Marriage Builders
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
J
jal7788 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
Melody Lane:
I get that. I will do that (after I read the book I've ordered). I can anticipate what WW will say,

1. No I will not sent letter, I've already established NC (she will be embarrassed);

2. I've told you everything (WW wouldn't agree to polygraph);
3. (she might agree to this one);
4. you know all my passwords except one for work and I need some privacy (I have it anyway)
5. I don't know yet if I want to committment to recovery--I want to see how things go between us.

Like me, she won't leave the house.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Originally Posted By: jal7788
Thank you for your continued input. What difference does it make if some physical act ocurred? Let say she passionately kissed the OM? Or held his hand? The fact is had an EA is bad enough, right? Do I adjust my reponse? I want to make my marriage better but she tells me she is not ready to make that committment. Now what? What leverage do I have? Move out and leave my children? I'm looking forward to the strategies in the books I've ordered. I guess she feels she is giving me enough by the fact that she has cut of contact. Of course I want more, but I can't force her to give more, can I?


You tell us - would you rather your WW just 'talk dirty' to an OM? Would it be worse if she admitted giving him oral? Dropping her panties? What is your thought on that?

Are you content to have her be less than honest with you? Less than forthcoming with the one person in her life that she should be completely honest with? Do you want a shell of a M where deceit is the order of the day?

You are certainly within your rights to settle for crumbs from a WW.

Prepare for other A's, because you're both setting your M up for them.

Last edited by maritalbliss; 09/21/10 06:17 PM.

D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
2 members (anchorwatch, 1 invisible), 30 guests, and 53 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Spartan Point He, OnTheRocks, Alise245, CVT, Olivia 80
71,700 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,537
Posts2,322,693
Members71,700
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5