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#2429216 09/22/10 11:51 PM
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I do not believe in a blanket statement that all OP are selfish by definition. What about the case where an OP is truly unaware that there is a M to begin with? Is that OP selfish???

Melody,
I saw your comment on Captain's thread. I decided to respond here so as not to distract from his thread. You wrote:

"twe, any women who will screw a married man is by, definition, selfish and thoughtless. Vibrissa is absolutely right. Interfering in a child's family in such a grievous, disgusting manner speaks volumes about the OW. The OW throws the COM under the bus by crawling into the pig pen with her married father. You can put lipstick on that pig, but you still have a pig."

I guess you are calling me a pig -?

I have done things in the past that I am not proud of. However, I am grateful to have this little angel in my life. I make no apology for raising her. tew


Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! - my take on the old proverb.

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Separated from H 10/15/10 due to an issue regarding parenting issues
Back w/ MM
DD - 16 mine from previous R
DFSD 9 - Raising DD of XMM/XH - She may not be mine biologically, but she is in every way that counts.
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Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
I do not believe in a blanket statement that all OP are selfish by definition. What about the case where an OP is truly unaware that there is a M to begin with? Is that OP selfish???

Sorry, but screwing someone else's husband is profoundly selfish. And very thoughtless of his children. It is a fair characterization.

Quote
I guess you are calling me a pig -?

I have done things in the past that I am not proud of. However, I am grateful to have this little angel in my life. I make no apology for raising her. tew


How else would you define adultery? I agree it is insulting to pigs for the insulting comparison, but I can think of no better way to define adulterers.


I shudder to think what that child has been taught about adultery. Has she been trained to believe it is ok to behave like a skank with married men? The most critical part of raising a child is teaching her right from wrong. That can't very well take place in the context of immorality. Teaching children that wrong is right is a form of child abuse that causes moral confusion.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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ML,
Wow!!! So even when the OP has no idea the WS is married, they are still selfish. Interesting.

No need to worry about what she has been taught. She is doing just fine. She is 9-years-old now. She is a bright, well adjusted 4th grader. She makes the honor roll, is in the Girl Scouts & the Awana club, and plays soccer:)

I "shudder to think" where she would have ended up without me as it is quite obvious that neither one of her parents give a [censored] about her! And I am the one that is selfish.


Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! - my take on the old proverb.

WS
Separated from H 10/15/10 due to an issue regarding parenting issues
Back w/ MM
DD - 16 mine from previous R
DFSD 9 - Raising DD of XMM/XH - She may not be mine biologically, but she is in every way that counts.
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Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
ML,
Wow!!! So even when the OP has no idea the WS is married, they are still selfish. Interesting.

I view that comment as little more than an attempt to divert the subject. Rarely do women not know when a man is married. And if they don't know at first, they find out soon enough, don't they?

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No need to worry about what she has been taught. She is doing just fine. She is 9-years-old now. She is a bright, well adjusted 4th grader. She makes the honor roll, is in the Girl Scouts & the Awana club, and plays soccer:)

None of which amounts to a hill of beans if she has been raised in a morally corrupt environment with adults who are corrupt. All the soccer and Girl Scouts in the world will not compensate for immoral role modeling.

Quote
I "shudder to think" where she would have ended up without me as it is quite obvious that neither one of her parents give a [censored] about her! And I am the one that is selfish.

You didn't exactly "give a [censored]" when you were doing her father and seeking to break up her family. The high horse does not fit you well. Frankly, an OW is not in any position to be sanctimonious about anything, especially when she played a part in the breakup of the marriage and the little girls family.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Melody,
I was not attempting to "divert" the subject at all. I was merely asking whether you considered an OP selfish if he or she is or was unaware of the WS's M. I will concede that usually an OP is aware of the M.

FYI, I never intended to break up her family. In fact, MM had left. I was the one that encouraged him to go back as soon as BS informed about her pregnancy. I also was no longer engaging in a R w/ him anymore, except friendship - which I will also concede, according to MB's standards, was at least an EA. I will admit that when he left for good I played a part in making sure he had his rights in place (50/50) as a father.

Keep in mind that this was over 8 + years ago. I have very different views now then I did then. However, I will not take ownership of the fact that neither one of them turned out to be decent parents. That is and was their choice. I believe it is selfish to turn your back on your flesh and blood.

Nor am I on a high horse. I just state the facts. She has had a place in my heart from the very first time I kept her overnight. Her father was at work and she had gas on her tummy. I was up all night with her. If I had to do my life over, I admit that there are many choices I may have done differently. However, taking her into my heart and home will never be one of them.

I suppose I will just agree to disagree with you:) Although due to my recent surgery the medicine I am on makes it hard to be disgreeable at all. It also makes it hard to sleep:( Best wishes!



Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! - my take on the old proverb.

WS
Separated from H 10/15/10 due to an issue regarding parenting issues
Back w/ MM
DD - 16 mine from previous R
DFSD 9 - Raising DD of XMM/XH - She may not be mine biologically, but she is in every way that counts.
2 DS - grown and in the US Marines
H - has no kids.
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twe, I would think carefully about defending the indefensible on a marriage board. There is absolutely no excuse for being a homewrecker. There is no "agree to disagree;" there is right and there is wrong. There is truth and there is false. There is no excuse for having an affair with a married man and helping break up his marriage and destroying his childs family.

For you to take credit for her upbringing after you played a part in the break up of her family is sickening. That is like the arsonist taking credit for putting out the burning building that he just lit with a match.

The fact that you are on this site defending the indefensible and crowing about what a good OW you are is, frankly, astonishing.

This is not a place where you can celebrate the corruption of a little child and expect to get credit for it. You are clearly on the wrong board for that.

What business does an OW have on a website that promotes marriage?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sad part is she still to this day comprehend the destruction she wrought on this child's family.

I guess as long as she's a good mother negates the facts of adultery and her behavior.


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I am moving my response to you over here to not continue a thread jack:

Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
I disgaree w/ that statement. Not all OW are selfish, or will throw the COM under the bus. I am a FOW, that is actually raising the COM, from my FMM's (XH) M. I have been taking care of her for years. Neither of her "parents" support her financially, or in any other manner.


And yet, you harmed her grievously first. You played a part in the destruction of the ONE thing a child needs above all else: a safe and secure family and home.

You may make yourself feel better by caring for her now, her parents may have been basketcases BEFORE you came along but the fact remains that you didn't think to yourself "This child needs so much more than her parents are providing, I will sleep with her father and throw fuel onto the fire of the destruction of his marriage so that I can take care of the poor girl."

You felt it ok to sleep with a married man. At that time you thought of yourself and your desire for a relationship. You didn't care that you were, in essence, furthering the destruction of this poor girl's life. You DID throw her under the bus. It is admirable that you are caring for her now, but the fact remains that you have not always acted in her best interest and there was no guarantee that you WOULD act in her best interest as when this relationship started you were ONLY acting in your best interest at the EXPENSE of what this girl needed most: her family.

ETA: I also see that your married man is now your EX husband. The fact that he was untrustworthy enough to sleep with you while married didn't tip you off that he wasn't marriage material? And so you decided to marry him, setting this poor girl up for a second misery: the destruction of a second family after she'd tried to adjust.

Now she may be better off for having you in her life NOW, but you have harmed her just as much as you help her. And you could use the excuse that if it wasn't you, it would have been someone else. That is probably true, but it was YOU and that does matter.

__________

Also want to add: no, if you didn't know AT THE TIME the relationship started that he was a married man, of course you weren't selfish. Your selfishness kicked in when YOU FOUND OUT. Because, of course, you found out.

You may try to console yourself that you were 'just friends' after that, but we both know that wasn't the case. There was still an emotional connection that persisted, and continued contact contributed to the further destruction of the original marriage.

A woman of integrity and character would have been disgusted at the revelation of his married status, dumped him and removed him from her life, realizing him to be the morally deficient person he was and realizing that you shouldn't have those people in your life if you want to remain a woman of integrity and character.

You selfishly decided to keep him in your life, despite knowing his poor moral character, because it was what was best for YOU, not what was best for this man, his family, or this child you love so much.

You may console yourself with the fact that you 'encouraged' him to fix his marriage, but we both know that was impossible as long as you were in the picture. Your words said one thing, but your actions another, and actions are what count. You kept yourself in his life. If you REALLY wanted the marriage to survive, you would have completely cut yourself off from him.

But you got something from him and you selfishly chose to keep him in your life.

Then, you compounded the selfishness by marrying him after his divorce. You KNEW he was not marriage material, you KNEW he was morally deficient. Yet you selfishly lied to yourself that somehow you were different and this relationship would work, because you wanted it to. You selfishly put YOUR desire for a relationship with him ahead of the needs of his daughter. You knew he wouldn't be a good husband because of his past, and yet you began a relationship with him, and setting this child up for a second failed family.

No, you weren't selfish when you started seeing him - you didn't know better. But all the major decisions you made regarding this relationship AFTER you knew, have been selfish and in YOUR OWN best interest, not this little girl's.

Now I'm not saying you are a horrible or bad person. I'm saying you were a selfish destructive person then. You don't have to be that person, in fact you say you have grown since then. Part of growth is accepting the terrible things we did in our youth, understanding WHY we did them, accepting that they ARE terrible and ensuring those behaviors don't happen again.

And I'd encourage you to read Between Two Worlds: the inner lives of Children and Divorce. The children of broken homes are frequently GREAT liars. They are adept at portraying an 'all is fine, I'm healthy and happy" surface to reassure the adults in their lives, but the scars of divorce run deep and the pain shapes them throughout their lives.

I should know, my parents divorced when I was two over my mother's infidelity. My father's second marriage ended while I was a teen also over infidelity. I've gone to college, gotten a masters degree, have a home and happy family, a strong marriage of 5 years and a beautiful daughter. From the outside one would say I'm just fine. But I carry the scars of my shattered childhood burned deep onto my soul. I still feel the pain of those events, and I probably always will - though I have overcome them.


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twejtm or whatever your name is, please stop trolling on a Marriage Building site. Just go post on The Other Woman board where women who intrude on and destroy families can help you feel good about that.

It's not going to happen here. And I'm putting you on "ignore" so I don't have to see any more of your selfishness and stupidity here.

My wish for you is that you marry a man you love and then find out he's doing some skank on the side who was stupid enough to believe his lies. But you won't mind, right? I mean, you would NEVER get upset about that like the rest of us did. You would just want your husband to be happy.

You're not selfish and judgmental like we are. Right?


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Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
ML,
Wow!!! So even when the OP has no idea the WS is married, they are still selfish. Interesting.
Do you mean to tell me these women are unaware that these men are not their husbands?

Because even if they don't know HIS marital status, I'm pretty sure they would know if he's their husband or not.

Now you might argue that their personal moral code doesn't mandate no sex before marriage.

OK, but then that would just prove that they are selfish. After all, if they decide that they know better than God, or that there is no God so they can make up their own rules, well then that would make them pretty selfish.
Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
No need to worry about what she has been taught. She is doing just fine. She is 9-years-old now. She is a bright, well adjusted 4th grader. She makes the honor roll, is in the Girl Scouts & the Awana club, and plays soccer:)

I "shudder to think" where she would have ended up without me as it is quite obvious that neither one of her parents give a [censored] about her! And I am the one that is selfish.

Well, are you not the one looking for validation? You want someone to tell you good job.

Isn't that selfish?

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Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
Melody,
I was not attempting to "divert" the subject at all. I was merely asking whether you considered an OP selfish if he or she is or was unaware of the WS's M. I will concede that usually an OP is aware of the M.

FYI, I never intended to break up her family. In fact, MM had left. I was the one that encouraged him to go back as soon as BS informed about her pregnancy. I also was no longer engaging in a R w/ him anymore, except friendship - which I will also concede, according to MB's standards, was at least an EA. I will admit that when he left for good I played a part in making sure he had his rights in place (50/50) as a father.

Keep in mind that this was over 8 + years ago. I have very different views now then I did then. However, I will not take ownership of the fact that neither one of them turned out to be decent parents. That is and was their choice. I believe it is selfish to turn your back on your flesh and blood.

Nor am I on a high horse. I just state the facts. She has had a place in my heart from the very first time I kept her overnight. Her father was at work and she had gas on her tummy. I was up all night with her. If I had to do my life over, I admit that there are many choices I may have done differently. However, taking her into my heart and home will never be one of them.

I suppose I will just agree to disagree with you:) Although due to my recent surgery the medicine I am on makes it hard to be disgreeable at all. It also makes it hard to sleep:( Best wishes!

So what do you own?

There is a question many ask BETRAYED spouses. Has your spouse become a better or worse person for knowing you.

The same question is valid here. Did either your affair partner, or his betrayed wife become better people for knowing you?

My guess is no.

So the question is, what was your contribution to their downfall?

Some may say my values are old fashioned. Yet it seems life is a lot better with those sorts of values.

Love God.
Don't sleep with anyone who is not your spouse.
Love your spouse.
Work hard.
Be generous.
Treat others better than you treat yourself.
Spend less than you make.
Don't expect others to take care of you.

Seems we as a society have gotten away from these values. Now it's about "me."

Look at me. Look at my good works. Look at my brains. Look at my boobs, or whatever.

It's about about me, me, me today.

The fact that you are here seeking validation only proves my point. You are more about yourself than you are about the damage you've done to others.

I don't see you writing saying that what you did was horrific, how abusive it was to his wife or child.

Why not set a real standard and instead of as you put it, waiting until he left for good, saying you will have nothing to do with a man who refuses to honor his vows.

Why not set a real standard and say if he can't honor his vows, then why would he even consider himself a fit parent?

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Is OP always selfish?

Yes.

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selfish
adjective
(of a person, action, or motive)
lacking consideration for others;
concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure

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unselfish
adjective
willing to put the needs or wishes of others before one's own

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Originally Posted by tewjtm_dup1
I do not believe in a blanket statement that all OP are selfish by definition.

Who cares what you believe? Lots of people used to believe that the world was flat. Didn't make it true.

Yes, the OP is ALWAYS selfish. And this is coming from someone who used to be one.


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Vibrissa,

"And yet, you harmed her grievously first. You played a part in the destruction of the ONE thing a child needs above all else: a safe and secure family and home."

I will admit I played a part in the destruction of their M. Knowing what I now know about XH I can be reasonably sure he would have never took the initiative to leave a M, no matter what.

"You may make yourself feel better by caring for her now, her parents may have been basketcases BEFORE you came along but the fact remains that you didn't think to yourself "This child needs so much more than her parents are providing, I will sleep with her father and throw fuel onto the fire of the destruction of his marriage so that I can take care of the poor girl.""

I do not make myself feel better by caring for her. I care for her beacuase I love her, PERIOD.

At the time of the EMR I was SELFISH! No doubt. I also did not respect the institution of marriage. I HAVE changed my opinions considerably since then. There are a lot of decisions that I made that I wish I could change. However, I can't. All I can do is learn from them, move on, and make better decisions in the future.

"You felt it ok to sleep with a married man. At that time you thought of yourself and your desire for a relationship. You didn't care that you were, in essence, furthering the destruction of this poor girl's life."

I AGREE.

"You DID throw her under the bus. It is admirable that you are caring for her now, but the fact remains that you have not always acted in her best interest and there was no guarantee that you WOULD act in her best interest as when this relationship started you were ONLY acting in your best interest at the EXPENSE of what this girl needed most: her family."

This is what I struggle with. I do not care for her to atone for any wrong I have done in the past. I care for her b/c I love her. It is that simple. If you were to meet her, you would fall in love with her as well.

"ETA: I also see that your married man is now your EX husband. The fact that he was untrustworthy enough to sleep with you while married didn't tip you off that he wasn't marriage material? And so you decided to marry him, setting this poor girl up for a second misery: the destruction of a second family after she'd tried to adjust."

I SHOULD never have married him. AGREED. He was not marriage material. He had no interest in putting in the work it requires to be a good H or a decent father.

"Now she may be better off for having you in her life NOW, but you have harmed her just as much as you help her. And you could use the excuse that if it wasn't you, it would have been someone else. That is probably true, but it was YOU and that does matter."

I will agree with that also.
__________

"Also want to add: no, if you didn't know AT THE TIME the relationship started that he was a married man, of course you weren't selfish."

Thank you. I agree.

"Your selfishness kicked in when YOU FOUND OUT. Because, of course, you found out."

Again, I agree.

"You may try to console yourself that you were 'just friends' after that, but we both know that wasn't the case. There was still an emotional connection that persisted, and continued contact contributed to the further destruction of the original marriage."

I completely agree with the above.

"A woman of integrity and character would have been disgusted at the revelation of his married status, dumped him and removed him from her life, realizing him to be the morally deficient person he was and realizing that you shouldn't have those people in your life if you want to remain a woman of integrity and character."

Agree again.

"You selfishly decided to keep him in your life, despite knowing his poor moral character, because it was what was best for YOU, not what was best for this man, his family, or this child you love so much."

Agree.

"You may console yourself with the fact that you 'encouraged' him to fix his marriage, but we both know that was impossible as long as you were in the picture. Your words said one thing, but your actions another, and actions are what count. You kept yourself in his life. If you REALLY wanted the marriage to survive, you would have completely cut yourself off from him."

I agree. I should have stuck w/ the NC I began.

"But you got something from him and you selfishly chose to keep him in your life."

Yep, at the time I was reading from the OP script. No doubt.

"Then, you compounded the selfishness by marrying him after his divorce. You KNEW he was not marriage material, you KNEW he was morally deficient. Yet you selfishly lied to yourself that somehow you were different and this relationship would work, because you wanted it to. You selfishly put YOUR desire for a relationship with him ahead of the needs of his daughter. You knew he wouldn't be a good husband because of his past, and yet you began a relationship with him, and setting this child up for a second failed family."

Again I do agree with you. I wish I had a time machine. I wish I never married him. True. I can not change my past decisions though. I will say that I will NEVER make decisions like that again. Even if I were single today, I would run in the other direction if I learned a guy that was trying to go out w/ me was M. PERIOD, END OF STORY.

"Now I'm not saying you are a horrible or bad person. I'm saying you were a selfish destructive person then. You don't have to be that person, in fact you say you have grown since then. Part of growth is accepting the terrible things we did in our youth, understanding WHY we did them, accepting that they ARE terrible and ensuring those behaviors don't happen again."

Thank you and I agree. I have changed. I am living a moral life and it is amazingly simple to do so. Yes there is stress, but there is no drama or deception. It is very liberating. I am in a great M. We are going on 5 years in Feb. My H is a very loving, moral, and honorable man. He has taken on XHDD as his own. I did have DD go to counseling a few years back as I thought she may suffer due to lack of bio parents in her life. I will go to Amazon and order Between Two Worlds. I am an avid reader. I want to do all I can to ensure that she grows up to be a secure, balanced, and happy child.

I should know, my parents divorced when I was two over my mother's infidelity. My father's second marriage ended while I was a teen also over infidelity. I've gone to college, gotten a masters degree, have a home and happy family, a strong marriage of 5 years and a beautiful daughter. From the outside one would say I'm just fine. But I carry the scars of my shattered childhood burned deep onto my soul. I still feel the pain of those events, and I probably always will - though I have overcome them.

(((((Vibrissa)))))


Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! - my take on the old proverb.

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I think you have to deliver the same message to your child. Be clear, that you are happy to have your child. Yet you made some serious mistakes that unfortunately, the child has to pay for.

Just as you say, you carry the scars from your shattered childhood, your child too will carry similar scars, regardless how many times you tell us (or your child) that you are a loving mother.

I don't say that to tear you down. I say it in hopes that you'll deliver the message that the path you took should not be repeated.

Teaching your child that while you may be a great mom now, how you got there was a painful path and that your child should avoid the same path, choose carefully, have sex with their spouse and ONLY their spouse. Not with friends, no hookups, etc.

That way, if they are having sex with their spouse and only with their spouse, they won't be breaking up a marriage, they won't be worried about having a child out of wedlock, etc.

And they'll avoid passing on the scars that you carry and that you likely passed on to your child by having a child with the affair partner.

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Then it seems we are in agreement, tew. AT THE TIME you were the OW you WERE selfish. ALL affairees are selfish. It is the only way they can justify their actions to themselves.

But does that mean you will ALWAYS be selfish, that you will ALWAYS be wayward? That you will forever be condemned and vilified because of who you WERE?

No.

Because people can change. People can grow. People can overcome the mistakes of the past, they can stop being who they were and become someone better.

Are you selfish now? No.
Were you then? It seems we agree that you were.

AT THE TIME you were NOT a good person for this little girl's life, and a betting man would (for the safety of the child) have removed the girl from your life, because there are no garantees that a selfish person WILL change, though they CAN. To speak to Captian's situation, which spurred this conversation, yes it is possible that his OW can BECOME a better person, there is a Wayward woman who is working through her personal recovery on SAA. So it IS possible. But I would NEVER advise someone to take that risk with their children.

If you could go back and advise your EX MM having NO CLUE that you would become the woman you are now, would you have him risk his child's happiness on the mere POSSIBILITY (and a slim one at that) that you would change? If you truly love her like you say you do, there is no way you could say yes.

That is a MASSIVE risk for someone to take, not just with their lives, but with the lives of innocents.

It seems you are NOW a good influence on the life of this child, when she is bereft of others. But there is no guarantee that it was going to turn out this way.


Last edited by Vibrissa; 09/23/10 03:42 PM.

Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
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tew...

Please stop saying "at the time of the EMR" - Rephrase to "at the time of the ADULTERY" - Calling it what it really was will perhaps help YOU to see exactly how vile what you engaged in was, which will hopefully help you talk openly with your daughter about what you did and how she must take extraordinary precautions to make sure she never walks down that same road...The cycle repeats until someone works to actively stop it...

Calling adultery an "emr" waters it down - plus it creeps me out as that is what it's called at the other site you post on - Do you still post there? I sure hope not - If you are serious about being a changed woman, I would pray that you now see that place for exactly what it is...*shudder*

Am I correct that your name here means something akin to "the ends will justify the means"? If so, I would hope you are considering a change if your intent is to continue post here...That phrase is offensive - you see that, right?

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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tewjtm,

What made you post onto this site. I see in your tag line that you post in TOW as femalesargent.

What shifted you to come from there to here?


Me 55, XWH 53, M 22 years
D17, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09

Quote: "First thing you do is pray; when there is nothing else to do, continue to pray."
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