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If he doesn't buy and read the book, it will make you angry.


Your anger will not kill him.

It is a natural consequence of his failure to hold up his end of the work of the relationship and its recovery.

People learn by natural consequences.


I did. You did.

CGIR has had too many people holding his bike up for him, and he needs to fall down and hit that pavement HARD. It will not kill him to scrape his knees.

Trust me, he can get back on the bike.

Ultimately, he will order the book and read it.

Because you will make it important enough.


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Originally Posted by brokenvase
Oh, and one last thing. Once I tried to register on e-harmony (years ago when it used to be free) when I was hurt by and angry with CGIR. I told him at the time I was doing this. I wanted to lash out, and, yet again, validate myself through others. But, here's the ironic part: after I spent hours and hours filling out all their surveys, e-harmony told me that a tiny percentage of people are unmatchable, and that I was one of them. Welcome to Leprosy Island.

I just wanted to mention something in passing here: Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce used to run a dating service, believe it or not. They found that most of their clients didn't want to date each other, and so they worked with them, Dr. Harley teaching the men to meet women's emotional needs of affection and conversation, and Joyce teaching the women to meet men's emotional needs of physical attractiveness and recreational companionship. The end result was that many of their clients got married, although not to each other; they learned how to make themselves attractive enough on the "marketplace" that they could bring about the happy relationships they wanted, and they got married.

If an "unmatchable" person learns to meet his or her partner's emotional needs, and eliminates love busters like selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, and independent behavior (not to mention dishonesty), he or she will transform from "unmatchable" to "a great catch."


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Today, CGIR went to a large, family wedding alone.

This is epic for the two of us for a number of reasons:

First, CGIR told his mother in advance that I would not be attending, because we were having problems in our marriage and it would be too painful for me to go. He also owned the problem, admitting to having an affair. In the past, he would have claimed that I was sick and couldn't go.

Second, I didn't change my mind, and CGIR didn't pressure me to do so. For once, I made a decision and followed through.

And finally, CGIR said he plans to tell his brothers the truth about why I was not there. CGIR's mother and her sister (the bride's mother) arranged to leave my chair at the table, so CGIR could tell everyone that I suddenly got sick and couldn't go. I don't know if he will actually have the integrity to do this, but it will go a LONG way in helping us if he does. I certainly don't expect him to dampen the bride's celebration by distracting and upsetting her guests with a "tell all," but I do expect him to tell the truth.

I told CGIR that today is his version of "A Christmas Carol." He is at a wedding, alone. He already lost his job, and a week ago, almost lost his home and his wife. Are these the shadows of the things that will be, or are they shadows of things that may be, only?

CGIR has the key to keeping me. The things he needs to do, while not easy, are crystal clear - no ambiguity. Tell me the truth, about events (past, present and future) and about his thoughts and feelings. Love me. Be my friend. That's it.

Can he change these shadows he's seeing, by an altered life?

I really hope so.




Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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How did the wedding go?


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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BV

I have a question for you.
From reading your thread, it appeared that you were all set to go your own way and then all of a sudden you seemed to change your mind.
May I ask what was the reason for the sudden turn around?

For me I am at the point of throwing in the towel, it is all just too much for me.
Open and honest is just showing me how much my life has been a farce. It is showing me how one sided the marriage was and now that I am able to tally the years it appears that for 30 years I was the only one in this marriage.

Just like CGIR though, his family has a poor opinion of me and this is as a result of opinions being formed by them that was based on lies which CGIR chose not to correct.
I doubt very much he has what it takes to correct the impressions out there.
I am starting to die inside, he sat down and spoke the other night, I did not get angry, did not ask too many questions, all I kept thinking inside is how much of MY life has been a total mockery.
At my age,(and his) I don't really see any hope for us, there is no more love there, I don't know if its possible for us to even be friends, I don't know, I am out of my depth.

I now understand why people go out and have revenge As. I could use one right now, if for no other reason than to have a small moment in time (whether its real or not) where I can feel things that I have not felt in 30 years, even if that feeling lasts for only an hour.
If I died tomorrow it would mean an untimely interruption to a life that was never fulfilled to one half of its potential.


BS me 55yrs
WH 59 yrs
M 34 yrs 6/26/2010
DD 25
D Day May 5, 2010
NC 5/12/2010
Duration of affair 5 years, but other affairs discovered on D Day
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Schoolbus:

Thank you for asking and thank you so much for the time you are investing in CGIR and me. He will be back online on Monday, with an un-annotated copy of Leadership and Self-Deception in hand.

CGIR said he was miserable at the wedding; ergo, it went great! ;-)

The most important thing that happened was that he told his brother the truth about why I didn't attend when his brother pulled CGIR aside to ask him how he was doing. CGIR didn't give him a full run-down, which I wouldn't have wanted him to at a wedding, but he did say that the problems we are having are extensive, encompass most of our past, are CGIR's fault and (this is a REALLY big deal for me) that CGIR LIED TO ME REPEATEDLY ABOUT THEM.

I hoped that CGIR would tell his brothers we were having problems and I hoped he would make a statement taking responsibility. I expected that he might decide to say I was sick and couldn't go. But I never thought that he would, on his own initiative, tell his brother that not only had he had lied to me, but that he had lied to me repeatedly.

I've been pretty confident that I am finally getting the truth about CGIR's past, but not as confident that CGIR was going to be open and honest with me going forward and not optimistic AT ALL that CGIR was going to be open and honest to anyone else but me (in certain circumstances). I've been thinking that the best I could hope for was full disclosure about the past, a genuine attempt by CGIR to not use pornography/Facebook, etc. to fill his time and a life together punctuated by discoveries, regret and promises, until I either became resigned to it or quit.

The wedding has made me much more hopeful that CGIR is really "getting it" and that we can actually have an intimate, reciprocal relationship going forward.

(Confidential to CGIR - thanks, and LOVE YOU!)

BV

Last edited by brokenvase; 10/11/10 02:24 AM. Reason: Messed up book title!

Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Originally Posted by teaser_8
BV

I have a question for you.
From reading your thread, it appeared that you were all set to go your own way and then all of a sudden you seemed to change your mind.
May I ask what was the reason for the sudden turn around?

Dear Teaser:

I hope you can follow my logic here.

A few years ago, CGIR and I had a cat that was terminally ill; the only treatment vets could offer was palliative.

This cat was our first pet together and we had had her for 14 years. We discussed putting her to sleep, but weren't sure if it was the right thing to do.

When talking to a friend who had been through a similar experience, she said that I would "know" when it was time.

This was decidedly unhelpful to me, because I constantly struggled with the decision. I just didn't "know." Some days, I thought we should, other days, I thought the opposite.

Well, the day CGIR put her to sleep, we KNEW, with 100% certainty, that it was time. We were sad - devastated, actually - but we acted immediately and with NO second thoughts.

I figured (and CGIR did, too) that I would KNOW when our relationship was too broken to be fixed. Last week, when we were talking about divorce, and beginning to divide our assets, I was at a dip in the roller coaster ride we've been on. Logically, I thought leaving was the right thing to do; staying did not pass "the girlfriend test, " not by a long shot (what advice would you give a girlfriend that was telling you your story). I thought I should leave, but I didn't KNOW I should leave. CGIR felt the same way; he didn't want to leave, but thought he had hurt me too much to deserve to ask me to stay.

But neither of us KNEW we should go.

Then, CGIR stepped up and really started to tell me "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." And I was able to believe it was (at LAST!) the truth, because, everything he was saying made SENSE. Everything - "evidence" I had gathered over the years, things I knew about CGIR, how I felt at the time - was finally fitting together.

The analogy for finally getting the truth is often finding missing pieces for a puzzle, but for me, it was more like taking out incorrect answers on a crossword puzzle. Once the wrong answer, and all the equally wrong answers linked to that first mistake, were erased, the correct answers came in one after another, all fitting together and each one contributing information to finally solve the puzzle.

And when I began to get the truth, I felt for the FIRST TIME EVER, that I actually could forgive CGIR at some point and have a relationship with him that was not stuck in the past and marred by bitterness and resentment.

But what has really convinced me to stay is that for many, many years, I struggled to see how I could possibly be special to CGIR. After all, he had his first affair almost as soon as we were married, and two subsequent affairs, including a ONS with a prostitute. How could I possibly be special to him if he could do that? Sure, he wants to be with me now, but if I were out of the picture, I could see how easily I would be replaced.

Now I feel that I am special to CGIR because I'm the first person in his life who he has told the truth to; the first person in his life who caused him to see that telling the truth is better than lying. And the events of this weekend (the wedding, above) have really given me hope that CGIR is finally starting to "get it." I also have the benefit of knowing that when CGIR gets something, he can make a change and maintain it - for example, he made one very significant change with SF about six years ago and has never wavered or slipped since that time.

We still have a way to go, because I'm still working on getting over the hurt (some things happened four years ago, but they're new to me; although they're in his past, they're now in my present), but I'm hopeful we can see our way out of this.

So, to summarize, why did I change my mind? Love. Truth. Forgiveness. Love. And hope.

I didn't think these things were possible, but now I think they are.

And I really hope I'm right.


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Hi BV

Thanks for you explanation.
Thats something I will have to give some serious thought to.

Perhaps then the problem for us is that I am not getting that feeling that I am being told the whole truth.

I am not feeling like I am the most important thing to him.

We were just in a conversation and I brought up the fact to him that there had been no SF between us for 19 years but that he was out there sleeping around with everyone else, his response? you want us to have sex tonight? like real sarcastic, you know, so I told him, the last time I asked you, your response was you can't work your mind up to it, especially if you're upset, please don't offer something you can't follow through on.

No BV, I don't feel special to him at all.


BS me 55yrs
WH 59 yrs
M 34 yrs 6/26/2010
DD 25
D Day May 5, 2010
NC 5/12/2010
Duration of affair 5 years, but other affairs discovered on D Day
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Today is my and CGIR's wedding anniversary - we were married 23 years ago.

I haven't celebrated our anniversary in about four years and don't plan to in the future. Nor do I wear rings.

CGIR has mentioned a few times over the years that maybe we could renew our vows some day, but I don't think I can do that - I can't promise to stay with CGIR for better or for worse. I've been through the worst and know that I don't have it in me to do it again.

I watched a video of the wedding CGIR attended yesterday, and it was sad for me. I'm most sad when I think that CGIR can only have a faithful marriage with another woman and never with me. The thing I most wanted, I can never have with the person I want to be with.

Oh well. Hopefully we can be friends, and hopefully we can find something special, whatever that might be, we can share someday.

BV





Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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BV

Squid took her wedding ring off during her A. She hurt her fingers in a karate competition which made them swell and she was unable to put it back on ( how convenient).

After discovery and exposure we were at lunch one day ( which was part of my plan A) and she noticed I still had my wedding ring on. She said " I don't know why you still have that on, seeing how I love somebody else now".

I replied " I promised 18 years ago before God and man when I took this ring from you that I'd love you for better or worse. This is "worse" but until the last moment that I can't be married to you any more I will not ever take off this ring".

She teared up and went to the bathroom.

She said since we recovered that it was a dagger in her heart when i said that but a motivational one.

I completely understand your reluctance to commit to your marriage, BV, and to wear the symbols of fidelity but I would advise from my own situation that at some point you'll need to commit to recovery or commit to divorce. Recovery and divorce both take commitment and right now you're committed only to licking your wounds. Entirely understandable, and I've been there myself, but just know nothing changes until your attitude does.

All blessings


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Hi BV

I know how you feel, my anniversary was about 6 weeks after D Day and I can still remember how low I felt on that day. You think back to the day you got married and how full of hopes and dreams you both were on that day and then you come crashing back to the present and wonder what the heack happened.

As an update, I told WH on Friday that I feel that it is best that we go our separate ways; after much discussion he has asked (and I ultimately agreed) if we could delay separation till December.

Last night I asked him what was it he hoped to accomplish between now and December, he says that he believes that he can make inroads with me so that I can see that there is hope for us. I told him that the problem as I see it ( and I got this from your response to my question) is that I don't FEEL like he is doing what is necessary to get us on the path to R.
Yeah, he has been taking me out, and he brings me coffee in the morning, but anyone can do that, thats the easy stuff. The open and honest part of it is an issue because, unlike you BV, I am not getting the sense that I am getting the story, I don't believe I even have the first piece to start to put the puzzle together.
At several points in different conversations that we have had, he has very confidently stated that he can get us back to where we need to bee, and something about that statement has always bothered me. Well, I dealt with it last night, I told him that apparently he has me confused with the bimbos he has been hanging out there with, you don't get to woo me with the whisper of sweet nothings and then I crumble. You have to work to get me back-and it will mean hard work and from where I am standing right now, I don't see any proof that you are up to the task. I have a lot more substance than that.
I still don't really believe that he has grasped the gravity of the damage he has done to me.
The funny thing is? when we start having our discussions, he ends up having a pity party, well last night, I called him on it. I asked him, aftyer all the crap tat I have discovered about yoy over the last 5 months, where do you get the nerve to feel sorry for yourself? I am totally baffled by that and I let him know in no uncertain words, I FEEL NO PITY FOR YOU. And I went on to tell him, perhaps its this very self pity that is hampering him from understanding what has happened and what he needs to do. I have no advice to offer him anymore, the ball is in his court. Earlier, I was the one doing research, finding MB. suggesting counselling, looking up articles. I am so done with that.

He had no problems finding the words necessary to get his whores into his (our) bed, let him use the same if not more energy to figure out what to do next.

If I end up alone, then hell, so be it!!!


BS me 55yrs
WH 59 yrs
M 34 yrs 6/26/2010
DD 25
D Day May 5, 2010
NC 5/12/2010
Duration of affair 5 years, but other affairs discovered on D Day
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Anniversaries, weddings, hearing wedding vows, wedding rings...are all triggers that send a dagger through the BSs heart. Every BS believes they are the only one who feels this way about these things, but you are not alone ~ we all do/did feel that way. It's par for the course. frown

The good news is ~ as with everything related to recovery ~ time really does help to heal this. We're 3.5 years into recovery and while some of these things to trigger me on occasion, it certainly isn't to the extent that they once did.

I hope this gives you both hope...I also hope you know that IF you follow the MB program, you WILL recover your M.

(((hugs))) to you both, brokenvase and teaser.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

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My H and I renewed our vows about 2 yrs after d-day. I wasn't sure about it either, but then he convinced me. He got down on one knee and proposed, for a new marriage.

I thought that since I was on board for a recovery, that I was committed to a marriage with him. That meant that I was committed - to the vows - the same vows that I took already. And he said he felt a sense of urgency, to start over, to make this fresh and right - because it meant an atonement of sorts for him, in a way, to get things right in his mind. To hear and to say those vows again, before everyone, to do it all again, was important to him.

So I did it. He cried.

It was worth it. It made him happy, and sad, and together we began anew in a way that made things feel different.

So maybe someday you might think about it.


As for rings, I took mine off, put it on, took it off, put it on...and finally, decided


I AM MARRIED. I WEAR THAT SYMBOL. IT MEANS SOMETHING TO ME.

His affair didn't change my vows. It also didn't erase what my marriage had meant over the many decades together, and what that ring meant to me. Besides, my finger felt funny without that ring-it had a place.

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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I took a couple of weeks off from posting to think; thank you BobPure, teaser_8, MarriedForever and Schoolbus for supporting me on my anniversary.

I finally have what I feel is the truth from CGIR. Some of the information I heard was not what I expected I would hear - some things were not as bad as I expected; other things were worse.

The good: CGIR told me a lot of things from his childhood (before we met) that made him vulnerable to embarrassment, that he didn't have to tell me.

For the past four years, I had always pictured CGIR's relationship with OW #2 as a deep, emotional relationship. I thought he loved her, wanted to be with her and only stayed with me due to guilt, obligation, fear of change, fear of what his family would say, etc. Minimally, I thought that he "loved" me but was "in love" with her and confused about what he wanted to do. CGIR had also told me at one point (in the past) that conversation with OW #2 was a "10," and (in a different conversation) that he didn't want to talk to me because all I ever talked about was "stupid sh**" (yes, those were his exact words).

If you ever saw the movie "Before Sunrise," that was *exactly* how I envisioned CGIR's relationship with OW #2. The traveling overseas together, the conversation - Julie Delpy, the star, even resembles OW #2. CGIR's comments about her conversation, my conversation, and my mental image of the two of them in this movie decimated my self-esteem and made me far too anxious to have conversations with CGIR - at my most anxious, I literally feel that my throat is frozen and I can't speak.

Well, I was very wrong. While CGIR enjoyed the "getting to know you" conversation he and OW #2 had during their first trip, the majority of their subsequent conversation was the same type of conversation CGIR would have with me at that time - he would talk for the purpose of hearing himself talk, and wait for his listener to agree with/validate his points. (Like Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction, he didn't listen, he waited to talk). OW #2 supported everything he said, so he loved talking to her; I tried to give him actual advice, so he just talked over me, dismissed my opinion(s) and walked away when he was done. (And before anyone comments that I should work on supporting CGIR during conversation, please note that at this time, CGIR and OW #2 mostly talked about work, and OW #2 was validating behavior that led to CGIR losing his job. CGIR said that if he had listened to me at that time, he would probably still be employed).The hours of cell phone conversations were just that - CGIR venting, and OW #2 singing the chorus. CGIR also said that he did NOT like when OW 2 talked about herself - she was a financial train wreck, an alcoholic, immature, unprofessional and actually DID talk about "stupid shi**."

So the relationship I imagined, and the paragon of conversation I constantly measured myself against never existed. Four years of anxiety that continue to this day didn't have to happen. The legacy of trickle truth.

The bad: CGIR initiated the physical relationships with both OW #1 and OW #2 (He lied in his first post on his thread).The only thing that stopped him from having intercourse with OW #2 was her reluctance and limited opportunity (she was a single mother). When he drove to her house with the idea of having sex with her, the thing that stopped him was fear of her rejection. If she, at any point, had given him a clear indication that she would have sex with him, he would have done it.

CGIR pursued sex with OW #2 as a game - he would "win" by getting her to give in. I believe this because this was a huge issue for me for about 2/3 of our relationship. I would tell CGIR that I didn't like something and he would aggressively do that very thing, to show that he could "make" me like it. Since I couldn't communicate with him effectively to get him to stop, I contributed to this cycle by "faking it," just so it would end. Fortunately, we discussed this in an early round of counseling (pre-MB) and CGIR did stop this behavior and has never returned to it. With me, anyway.

CGIR treated OW #2 badly. He asked her into his car, groped her, and since he felt it was not possible for them to have sex in the car, told her it was time to stop because he had to go home. (Wait, maybe this should be listed under "the good").

(Also under "the good," there was far less of a physical relationship than I originally thought, quantity-wise. Probably due to practical considerations, and probably due to the fact that CGIR treated OW #2 like [censored]).

In between OW #1-2, there was another work colleague who CGIR was friends with, and whom I was jealous of. The only thing that stopped her from becoming an OW was her own boundaries. Since she never showed that type of interest in CGIR, he never instigated a sexual relationship.

Between OW #1 AND #2, there was an approximately 15-year gap where CGIR did not have any EA/PA affairs (the ONS with the prostitute occurred during this time). However, in my opinion, CGIR was "an affair waiting to happen" - I think the reason he did not have an affair was simply because no opportunity presented itself.

The ugly: I'm having a few troubling thoughts right now, listed below in no particular order:

Originally, before "T(ruth)-day," I thought CGIR risked our relationship for a deep, emotional connection. Now I know he risked our relationship for...nothing. A stupid, manipulative game. I don't know which one is "worse."

The only reason CGIR told me the truth was because I told him I wanted a polygraph and he believed I was going to follow through. (I actually do still want one and am going to pursue one - I want to KNOW, as much as I possibly can, if the physical relationships CGIR described are accurate - no more omissions, no more trickle truth. I also want to know if there is anyone he "left out"). CGIR did not tell me the truth to begin an intimate relationship with me; he told me the truth to keep me in his life. And after 30 years, I'm part of a "package" that includes two steady paychecks, health benefits, a nice home, pets and recreational companionship. Oh, I'm a pretty easy lay and historically, I've been easy to manipulate - a doormat, some might say. But CGIR wants me to believe these things aren't relevant, and that he "loves" me.

CGIR admits he didn't "see" me before now. But now he does? How does this happen? This is actually really important for me to know. And how could he "love" me, when he didn't even see me? How does he even know who I am? I sure didn't know who he was.

Well, I guess that it's for now - as always, thanks for listening.

BV

Last edited by brokenvase; 10/25/10 12:31 AM. Reason: Edited subject line.

Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Your feelings and thoughts are just so "normal", I can't describe to you how much you sound like I did.

You are doing well, in your thinking this through. I understand completely the concept of your weighing why he might risk everything for an affair that was really

NOTHING.


You are asking the big question we all ask: WHY!?!?!?!?!?!



For me, when I realized I would never know "why", and came to something that could be called a "near-acceptance" of not knowing why, was when I finally felt like I could move ahead.


It took a long time.

You have lots to work through before you get there, which is the hard thing to say to you.


The better thing? You have come some distance since you first got here.

And,

My H had a time of about 28 years or so between his affairs. I, too, had the same questions about the span in between - did it reflect a "real" marriage? could he have loved me? how could he have lied? what did all this mean about our time together? did it negate the marriage?

all of it


we share in common


I asked my H about every woman he had ever met, and I mean EVERY WOMAN that I could think of, in exquisite detail.


It was torture for me and for him.


We did get through this.



Five year anniversary of d-day.....THIS WEEK.


Hang in there.


The "answers" to many questions do come, in time. In very strange ways.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Dear Schoolbus:
Thank you for your last post. Despite reading posts on this site for several years, I still feel like I'm the only one who thinks this way, especially when I read posts by those who've had great success with "thought-stopping," "re-claiming," etc.



It's been approximately two months since CGIR told me the facts of his three affairs. Before this, I had pinned all my hopes on knowing the (factual) truth - I believed this would finally allow me to move on. I was so desparate to move on that I even considered divorcing CGIR, hoping that after enough time had passed and he had re-married, he might tell me the truth. I wanted (NEEDED) the truth so badly that I was willing to give CGIR up in order to get it.

Before "T-Day," I spent a considerable amount of time EVERY DAY for FOUR YEARS doing pointless things (like using MapQuest to try to figure out how a few errands to some local stores could put 110 miles on an odometer) to see if I could find the truth myself. I thought if I knew the truth, I could spend my time doing things that would make me a better person instead of spending my time doing things that made me a confused, frustrated, depressed and anxious person.

After CGIR finally told me the truth, I did feel "free" for a short time. I can honestly say that I now spend little time dwelling on the facts of CGIR's affairs; accounts balanced and closed.

But I haven't been able to fill that time doing anything functional or productive - I lost who I used to be and I think that person is gone forever. Instead, cogitating trust (how can I ever trust CGIR again? did he tell me the WHOLE truth, or just a more reasonable, believable lie? is he telling me the truth about his thoughts and feelings, or just blowing smoke to smooth things over?) has expanded to filled the available time, and is even more pointless as these are questions without answers.

After a period of feeling optimistic, I just feel hopeless. I feel that CGIR's affairs have infected me with doubt, and now I have chronic illness that requires constant attention. I know MB advises betrayed spouses to focus on actions, but CGIR's affairs have taught me that there is no such thing as transparency - in 2010, a motivated person can hide any action from any person. There are things we can do to make another affair less likely (and more difficult to conduct), but an undercover affair is always possible. Only CGIR can prevent an affair, but I can never KNOW if he is taking the steps to do so. I can THINK he is; it can be LIKELY he is; I can HOPE he is; but I can never KNOW that he is. That is the nature of being infected with doubt - the constant awareness of the scope of what I don't and cannot KNOW.

Which leads me to a question I keep asking CGIR - if he didn't love me before (he says he did, but since he didn't show his love in actions, words or thoughts, I don't see how this is possible; I think it's more reasonable to say that he would like to believe that he loved me), how can he love me now, when I am distrustful, suspicious and resentful? Why am I better to him broken than I was (relatively) whole?

Sometimes I just don't see how it is possible to get through this. I can see settling, but I can't see recovering.

Thanks, as always, for listening.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Hi Brokenvase,

Quote
Only CGIR can prevent an affair, but I can never KNOW if he is taking the steps to do so. I can THINK he is; it can be LIKELY he is; I can HOPE he is; but I can never KNOW that he is.

I think that you can do it together. Here's what we did. We signed two papers: list of extraordinary precautions and a paper which states what will happen to the one who decides to have an affair again. We made the list of EPs together and we both had a chance to expand it, make it more detailed, did whatever we needed to feel good about it. This came out as a balanced list of what we won't do as well as what we will do in order to protect our marriage from now on. Another paper is basically a end document for the one who disregards the existing EPs' document and chooses to have an affair anyway, s\he practically loses everything we share together and more. Maybe this would work for you, too.


Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing

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BV,

You are a lot like I am. I think deeply into things, and then ask more questions, then more on top of those.

I consider possible scenarios, and then think them through, which is what you are doing regarding whether or not CGIR loves you, or ever did love you....or why he loves you now.


And you worry about what you "know" and don't know.


I have walked those very steps. I worried for years about how a man could have an affair, claim to love his wife, and then move forward with what that wife THOUGHT she had become (your idea of not being the same person as before).

Those are complicated questions.

My thoughts on this:


My husband was able to compartmentalize his behaviors. He kept the affair events separated in his own mind from the rest of his life. There was an artificial distance he created for himself - kind of like he was living the "regular" life, and then stepped outside of himself to conduct the affair.

His "logic" was that if he kept it all separate, it worked for him. He could avoid looking at the morality of it all, at the pain it might cause. He decided that if he kept it separated mentally, he could live with it all - and he justified it with weak ideas such as "what she doesn't know can never hurt her". He said he just KNEW he would never get caught. Only he did.


There was no contingency plan. There was just a ridiculous belief that he was immune to consequences of being caught - because he simply lived two separate lives and was extremely careful. So the two lives would never cross.


Did he stop loving me during the affair? He said that strangely enough he never stopped loving me, and somehow in his head he felt that he was protecting me with his secrecy. That he knew it was terrible and wrong to have the affair, but at the same time his secrecy kept me safe and kept him from having to reveal his bad inner self to me.

I had difficulty understanding this, for obvious reasons. His logic wasn't LOGICAL. It was what he was doing to keep himself safe, not to protect me. To me, it was a betrayal of love.

But in the end, I realized it doesn't mean that his feelings toward me changed. It was HIS weakness, and our relationship, that really led to all of the ingredients being right for the affair. It wasn't about love or lack of love.

It was about his needing something, his seeking something, and his failure to come to me for it.

My role? I had made the mood between us such that he felt frustrated and distrustful with his needs/desires and innermost thoughts. Basically we shared a home, but neglected our relationship.

How can he love me now that I am broken?
The fact is that he knew that HE DID THE BREAKING. On d-day, he began to snap back into the reality phase. He saw his "two lives" come crashing together like a mid-air collision of two 747's. He was snapped into the light of day, and somehow realized all that he had done

and that there was no justification that made any sense.


And those feelings that he had seen die down to just an ember in his heart came flaming up - because he stood to LOSE IT ALL.

At his own hand.


And he realized that what he thought about the relationship, and his own life

was all wrong.

That he had been completely blind, and stupid.


So he began to work pretty hard to fix things - that he broke - and to help me recover from the damage he did.


Because....

he did love me
and he loved me through his affair
and he loved me even though I was broken.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
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To continue:

Your own sense of "loss of self" is very common after being a betrayed spouse.

This is because you have (we all do) defined yourself by a variety of things - your relationships with your husband, your family status, your activities with your husband, your job, your experiences, your history....

And now, you are forced to review that history with the question in mind about which part might have been a lie, and which might have been "real".

You worry that things that happened might hold different meaning, because you do not know if his affair colored his interaction with you, or his participation in the event. You worry about what he was thinking - in his heart - during this moment or that event. You doubt what you have experienced, so you doubt yourself - who you are and what you "know".

The only real way to work through this is to ask him what he was thinking at a given point, or during an event. Only, you will doubt his answers....because you doubt much about what you knew of yourself, and of your life.

You are looking back to try to put pieces together. The truth is, you can never KNOW what another person thinks or feels, you can only observe their actions and over time get the Gestalt of how they feel or felt.


Your sense of self will re-emerge, I promise. It takes time to come through all of the feelings, the doubts, the thoughts. Work the MB plan, and the two of you will find those connections again. Your sense of the relationship will strengthen, and over time your ability to feel more trust will open up.

It takes time! A couple of years, minimum. This is a huge blow to you and your marriage, and your life

SHOULD CHANGE.

If it didn't, you would be doomed to repeat..................


Don't fear the changes you are sensing. Explore them, work through them, talk through them. They are normal, and as you assess things, you will come to your own conclusions about your life.


And just like you, I feel frustrated when I cannot KNOW something. Only

that is the truth of our lives. No one can ever really KNOW.


You are doing well, and CGIR looks to be exploring himself, too. He has made some mental changes - he is awakening.


It is not easy to recover a marriage. Hang in there!

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 987
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Originally Posted by schoolbus
BV,

You are a lot like I am. I think deeply into things, and then ask more questions, then more on top of those.

I consider possible scenarios, and then think them through, which is what you are doing regarding whether or not CGIR loves you, or ever did love you....or why he loves you now.


And you worry about what you "know" and don't know.


I have walked those very steps. I worried for years about how a man could have an affair, claim to love his wife, and then move forward with what that wife THOUGHT she had become (your idea of not being the same person as before).

Those are complicated questions.

My thoughts on this:


My husband was able to compartmentalize his behaviors. He kept the affair events separated in his own mind from the rest of his life. There was an artificial distance he created for himself - kind of like he was living the "regular" life, and then stepped outside of himself to conduct the affair.

His "logic" was that if he kept it all separate, it worked for him. He could avoid looking at the morality of it all, at the pain it might cause. He decided that if he kept it separated mentally, he could live with it all - and he justified it with weak ideas such as "what she doesn't know can never hurt her". He said he just KNEW he would never get caught. Only he did.


There was no contingency plan. There was just a ridiculous belief that he was immune to consequences of being caught - because he simply lived two separate lives and was extremely careful. So the two lives would never cross.


Did he stop loving me during the affair? He said that strangely enough he never stopped loving me, and somehow in his head he felt that he was protecting me with his secrecy. That he knew it was terrible and wrong to have the affair, but at the same time his secrecy kept me safe and kept him from having to reveal his bad inner self to me.

I had difficulty understanding this, for obvious reasons. His logic wasn't LOGICAL. It was what he was doing to keep himself safe, not to protect me. To me, it was a betrayal of love.

But in the end, I realized it doesn't mean that his feelings toward me changed. It was HIS weakness, and our relationship, that really led to all of the ingredients being right for the affair. It wasn't about love or lack of love.

It was about his needing something, his seeking something, and his failure to come to me for it.

My role? I had made the mood between us such that he felt frustrated and distrustful with his needs/desires and innermost thoughts. Basically we shared a home, but neglected our relationship.

How can he love me now that I am broken?
The fact is that he knew that HE DID THE BREAKING. On d-day, he began to snap back into the reality phase. He saw his "two lives" come crashing together like a mid-air collision of two 747's. He was snapped into the light of day, and somehow realized all that he had done

and that there was no justification that made any sense.


And those feelings that he had seen die down to just an ember in his heart came flaming up - because he stood to LOSE IT ALL.

At his own hand.


And he realized that what he thought about the relationship, and his own life

was all wrong.

That he had been completely blind, and stupid.


So he began to work pretty hard to fix things - that he broke - and to help me recover from the damage he did.


Because....

he did love me
and he loved me through his affair
and he loved me even though I was broken.


SB

hurray


Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
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