Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
We definitely need marriage counselling and that will be one of the first things to arrange when I get over there. Would you recommend a specialist marriage counsellor or it is more important for the counsellor to be a Christian, although not necessarily specialised in relationships?

dutchcourage, I would find a Christian counselor who specializes in Marriage Builders. OR get counseling directly from MB. They have an online program and do international phone coaching. MB is completely different from traditional marriage counseling in that it actually works. Traditional marriage counseling has an 84% failure is destructive to marriages. They don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and are rarely pro-marriage. They don't understand the dynamics of adultery and fail to counsel the couple to protect their marriage from a repeat.

The difference between them and MB is that the goal of MB is to restore the romantic love to your marriage and implement sane boundaries that protect it from an affair. They don't believe in endless counseling sessions, but in a solid plan of ACTION to recover your marriage. They are action oriented, not feeling oriented.

Quote
I wholeheartedely agree with you statement that forgiveness of my wife is a MUST. How can I expect to be forgiven if I cannot forgive others. My wife knows I have forgiven her already. The last thing I would want is for her salvation to be at risk. That is more important to me now than even our marriage.

The Bible commands forgiveness with repentance. That is what Dr Harley describes. Using just compensation, she repents by turning away from her sin. THAT is the best for your marriage. Please read the article. Dr Harley is a Bible believing Christian and there is nothing in his suggestions that conflicts with our Bible.

The recovery of your marriage DEPENDS on her turning away from her sin and protecting the marriage from the affair continuing. PLEASE don't ignore this step.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
Thanks for the encouragement.

Maybe I am still in shock, or just being naive, but I really do believe her when she tells me she didn't want this to happen. She says that she missed my presence and affection and attention, and was caught out at a vulnerable time. She felt hopeless because there was no definite timeframe of us being reunited.
If this is truly how she feels I believe you may have a huge problem on your hands. She's telling you that she'll screw a guy if she gets lonely for you??? Do you see where she is basically punishing you for leaving her to her own self-discipline?

I'm not making excuses for her, as it remains a deep betrayal of our marriage vows, but I do believe she is sincere and wants this to work.

I have to finish off at my work, but I am booked to fly over there on 12/23. Is this too late? I know the next few weeks will be a torture for me.
Can you get your family back here until you're ready to leave? What are they doing down there without you? I would not leave her alone for a month, no way. Especially after she told her that she screwed a guy because she missed you! faint

Am I being too understanding and forgiving too soon?
If you feel understanding and forgiving at this point, I would call you naive.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Quote
Can you not go there now? One thing I think you and your wife should do ASAP is expose this affair to your children and any close friends and family who are there with her. It should be exposed to anyone who can hold her accountable. I would get the kids on the phone and tell them about the affair, explain that OM is a bad man and that they are to call you if he comes around.

Our kids are so young (eldest 10 down to youngest of 2). I really don't want to get them dragged into all this and hurt in the process. Right now they are alone with the unfaithful partner and to tell them that mummy has been cheating could have serious consequences right now. What if one of them decided to run away? They know very few people over there and are totally reliant of my wife for their support and wellbeing. I can't drive a wedge between her and them.

My wife's mother is there on occasion, but I can't tell her either. She and my wife have many unresolved issues from her childhood and this would be the icing on the cake I feel. They have never had the best of relationships.

I could expose this to her family here, but I really don't want to leave her open to the disgrace and shame. I love her too much for that.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
No, she is too ashamed to tell her family. She had spoken to them about the friendship she had with this OM and they had warned her of the danger she was getting into. It seems I was the last to know about him.

You need to call them all today, tell them about the affair without forewarning her and enlisting their help. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping this a secret will ony serve to enable it. Exposure will likely stop this affair dead in its tracks. Call her family and then call and tell your children. The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable.

Don't skip this step, DC!

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
The issue of exposure comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I generally recommend exposure. When should it be exposed? I usually recommend that it be exposed immediately. To whom should it be exposed? I recommend that family, friends, children, clergy, and especially, the lover�s spouse be informed. Exposure in the workplace depends on several factors.

<snip>

Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Quote
Our kids are so young (eldest 10 down to youngest of 2). I really don't want to get them dragged into all this and hurt in the process. Right now they are alone with the unfaithful partner and to tell them that mummy has been cheating could have serious consequences right now. What if one of them decided to run away? They know very few people over there and are totally reliant of my wife for their support and wellbeing. I can't drive a wedge between her and them.

My wife's mother is there on occasion, but I can't tell her either. She and my wife have many unresolved issues from her childhood and this would be the icing on the cake I feel. They have never had the best of relationships.

I could expose this to her family here, but I really don't want to leave her open to the disgrace and shame. I love her too much for that.


So what you're really saying is that you choose to do nothing to stop your WW's behavior, do I understand that correctly?


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
Our kids are so young (eldest 10 down to youngest of 2). I really don't want to get them dragged into all this and hurt in the process. Right now they are alone with the unfaithful partner and to tell them that mummy has been cheating could have serious consequences right now. What if one of them decided to run away? They know very few people over there and are totally reliant of my wife for their support and wellbeing. I can't drive a wedge between her and them.

Your kids are already dragged into the process and need to be told and given moral guidance. They probably already know what is going on and are very confused. Kids are hurt by lies and adultery, not by the truth. They can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Quote
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

Quote
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
here


Quote
My wife's mother is there on occasion, but I can't tell her either. She and my wife have many unresolved issues from her childhood and this would be the icing on the cake I feel. They have never had the best of relationships.

What other family members are there could you enlist for help? Everyone in the world has "unresolved issues from childhood" but does that really have anything to do with the present? Would your MIL be able to help? Would she be supportive of your family?

Quote
I could expose this to her family here, but I really don't want to leave her open to the disgrace and shame. I love her too much for that.

If you love her, you will not risk your marriage and your children's family by ENABLING the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping this secret only serves to enable it. Your strategy of secrecy is a bad plan, DC. Exposure can have the effect of stopping an affair dead in its tracks. You have the power to do this NOW before this goes any further. If this goes further you may not have a marriage left when you get there.


Listen to this radio clip with Dr Harley and another betrayed husband. This man did not expose his wife's affair, the affair continued and now the wife is LEAVING the husband. Dr Harley tells the man he is an "ENABLER" and if he would have exposed the affair initially that it would have killed his wife's affair. listen here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
I could expose this to her family here, but I really don't want to leave her open to the disgrace and shame. I love her too much for that.

Helping her hide her affair is not "love," it is enabling. HUGE DIFFERENCE. You are enabling the destruction of your marriage and your children's family. You are helping the AFFAIR, not your family.

You are leaving the door open for the OM come right back today. He can come back today and all she has to do is not tell you. That is what is likely to happen if you keep the lover's secret. On the other hand, if you expose it and enlist the help of children and family members, she won't be able to bring him in anymore.

What you are facing is a situation where this affair is very likely to escalate unless you stop it. Once it goes to this next level, she will be looking to replace you. Which will be easy to do because you are not there. Do you want this man to live there and raise your kids? That is NOT an unlikely outcome, but a common one.

Your family is under spirtual assault, my friend. Bring it out into the open. Expose it.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Here's what you wrote:
Quote
I really don't want to get them dragged into all this and hurt in the process.
My friend, they are down there right now and up to their eyeballs in it. You don't think they're confused by meeting 'uncle John' and being sent to bed early? Because that's what will probably be happening soon.
Quote
I can't drive a wedge between her and them.
No sweat, dutch. OM will be able to do that for you. naughty
Quote
She and my wife have many unresolved issues from her childhood and this would be the icing on the cake I feel.
Dysfunctional childhoods. We've all had them, dutch. That should not dictate your exposure.
Quote
I could expose this to her family here, but I really don't want to leave her open to the disgrace and shame. I love her too much for that.

This is faulty logic, dutch. You're saying that your WW is threatening your M by her actions, so you're going to hide her actions and enable her to continue her bad behavior because you love her. What?? crazy If she were drinking and driving would you not take away the keys and remove the possibility of her harming herself or someone else? Or would you hide this behavior and pretend everything is fine, and let her keep the keys?


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Quote
I could expose this to her family here, but I really don't want to leave her open to the disgrace and shame.

If exposure to her family will result in shame and disgrace, they should be first on your list of exposure targets.
Dutch, you want her to feel shame! You want her to feel disgrace! You don't want her to feel entitled - you don't want her to feel good about her behavior! If no one knows but her and OM, believe me, they won't be feeling shame and disgrace.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Quote
What you are facing is a situation where this affair is very likely to escalate unless you stop it. Once it goes to this next level, she will be looking to replace you. Which will be easy to do because you are not there. Do you want this man to live there and raise your kids? That is NOT an unlikely outcome, but a common one.

Really? She has told me she has had no contact with him since it happened. She says I am the only one for her and that she is living under Grace at this moment, because she knows that to now willfully disobew God will lead to her going to hell.

I know that this may sound ridiculous and crazy to people here, but she had been warned before anything started about the dangers of men using black magic to get women to sleep with them. There are a lot of spiritual forces out there that we do not understand. Black magic is very powerful where she is, and is practised by many people. I am not saying that this is what has happened, but it remains a possibility.

She was warned of this by her family, and has received the same message from the Christian counsellor she is seeing. It happens more often than we would like to think. The men prey on vulnerable and lonely women and use potions to control or pacify them.

Am I in denial? Am I just making excuses for her? Only God knows.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
Really? She has told me she has had no contact with him since it happened. She says I am the only one for her and that she is living under Grace at this moment, because she knows that to now willfully disobew God will lead to her going to hell.

But she knew that when she began an emotional affair with this man and allowed this to happen. She knew you were the only one for her and she was living under God's grace when this happened. IT did not stop her before and it won't stop her now. You don't understand what you are dealing with here. If she decides to invite him back in, you will be the LAST person she will tell.

Your wife has very quickly developed an emotional affair with this man. He has been allowed to meet her needs in your absence.

He has probably met her need for conversation and affection and she has slowly grown addicted to him. The affair took a jumpstart when the OM had sex with your wife and this frightened her. But once she gets used to the idea, she won't be frightened anymore. And she will remember how good the OM made her feel when he was meeting her needs for affection, admiration and conversation.

He will be back.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 656
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 656

Originally Posted by dutchcourage
Am I in denial? Am I just making excuses for her?

Yes.


FBW in recovery
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
Am I in denial? Am I just making excuses for her? Only God knows.

No, we know it too. You are in denial. You are making serious strategic mistakes.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
What is really scary is that this guy has been able to move in for the kill with your wife WITHIN one short month of your separation from her. He must be really smooth. This is a full boat emotional affair that just went physical. It will take much more than your wife's "WORD" to stop this train wreck.

HOPE is not a plan, DC. You need a real plan to stop this affair and keep it stopped. No plan is a plan to FAIL.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable.

Many betrayed spouses are afraid that exposure will drive the unfaithful spouse further away. While it�s true that unfaithful spouses usually feel betrayed and angry when their affair is exposed, I regard that reaction as being part of the fog that most addicts experience. When the fog has finally lifted, and the source of addiction no longer has control, the value of exposure is usually conceded by the addict himself."
Exposure


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Quote
No, we know it too. You are in denial. You are making serious strategic mistakes.

Strategy indicates that all situations are the same and can be dealt with in the same way. In know that you are far more knowledgeable on this than me, and that you are trying to help, but can it be so clear-cut that the affair will continue if nothing is exposed?

I can only go by what she has told me until now. She says she has learned a very harsh lesson, that she is now allergic to the attention of men. That she wants no contact with this OM ever again.

Is it so definite that the affair will progress further?

She tells me that she will submit to my choices, and if I decide that her and the kids should come back here she is willing to do that. Great you might say. But we have had this plan to move for 6 years now. I know that if she comes back she will be willing to make things work but how long before she wants to restart the plans? I'm not talking about the affair here, as that is something that only begun within the last 5 weeks; I am talking about our dream of building a business and a life together there.

I realise that I come across as very naive. My world has been blown apart only 6 days ago, and it is all a bit much to take in right now.

I appreciate all the comments and take what I can from ALL of them.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
[
Strategy indicates that all situations are the same and can be dealt with in the same way. In know that you are far more knowledgeable on this than me, and that you are trying to help, but can it be so clear-cut that the affair will continue if nothing is exposed?

Yes, it is clear cut because nothing has been done to stop the affair. When an affair is not stopped, it does not stop, it escalates. Unfortunately, that has been my observation from posting on this board for 10 years. Your wife's willpower did not stop the affair in the past and it won't in the future. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret is to enable it.

Did you listen to Dr Harley's radio clip?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Quote
What is really scary is that this guy has been able to move in for the kill with your wife WITHIN one short month of your separation from her. He must be really smooth. This is a full boat emotional affair that just went physical. It will take much more than your wife's "WORD" to stop this train wreck.

That is what is so confusing to both of us. She cannot understand how she could allow herself to put her marriage of 10 years at risk for a man she barely knew and did not feel an attraction to when she first met him.

That is why, no matter how far-fetched it may seem, we are not ruling out the possibility of black magic being involved in this. When we were there together she was so powerful in her prayer life; up every morning at 05:00 to pray and worship. But after I departed she felt too tired, and too busy to pray. She was having to deal with the kids herself, as well as getting all official paperwork in order and trying to build a business network. She made excuses for not praying and left herself open to spiritual attack.

I read the article on exposure and do agree that in most circumstances exposing the affair is required to stop it progressing. But it talks of the risk of driving the WS away. My wife is already on the other side of the world, feeling lonely and alone. If her family were now to turn on her and attack her for her actions, what will this do to her? Won't this drive her into the arms of the OM? I don't know this guy, she knows very little about him herself, so exposing his part in this is not really an option.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996


Quote
That is why, no matter how far-fetched it may seem, we are not ruling out the possibility of black magic being involved in this.
faint


And ???? Then what?
How will placing the blame/responsibility for your wife's decisions on "black magic" protect your marriage in the future?


Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Originally Posted by dutchcourage
She cannot understand how she could allow herself to put her marriage of 10 years at risk for a man she barely knew and did not feel an attraction to when she first met him.

Quote
If her family were now to turn on her and attack her for her actions, what will this do to her? Won't this drive her into the arms of the OM?
Quote
the possibility of black magic being involved in this


Look at these quotes.
What you are saying is illogical.

WW is not really attracted to OM.
Black Magic is responsible, not WW.
The light of truth (exposure) will drive her to the arms of OM, to whom she is not attracted if it were not for "black magic".

Say, what?

It seems to me that if you really believe it was black magic that caused WW to fall for OM, you'd leap at the chance to give black magic the middle finger by virtue of EXPOSURE !

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Quote
And ???? Then what?
How will placing the blame/responsibility for your wife's decisions on "black magic" protect your marriage in the future?

I am not trying to relieve her of any blame in all of this. She left herself open emotionally and allowed this other man in, no matter what tactics or tricks he may have used. She has to accept her role in this as well of course.

The main and most crucial factor in protecting our marriage and preventing any repeat is to get us reunited as soon as possible. We have been living a long-distance relationsgip these last 5 weeks and that has been proven to possibly be fatal to our marrage.

The sooner we are under the same roof the better. That is the plan I have at this point. That and prayer.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 122 guests, and 71 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
purple17, cbm800, Dodo M, Kingpin, MikaylaVaux
71,729 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,547
Posts2,322,775
Members71,730
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5