last year in Canada summer arrived on a weekend, so it was a good year.

The 4 seasons in Canada are winter, june, july and august. But seriously folks...

Its above zero today so I am happy.

In terms of talking about splitting the housework or being a good husband (as you define it) affairs happen to all kinds of people. If its one thing I have learned here its not important whether you picked up your socks (ok it is a little) but affairs happen good dads, good chore doers, good looking people, ugly people etc etc.

It really is the ENs - and I have seen the results when I drill down on those for my wife - and when I slack off!

Have you ever seen the photo thread? There are really good looking people on here!

Just don't want Andy and other thinking not helping around the house made anyone do anything. Its not that at all.

Now saying that you should help out!!

Just my .02

Reynolds - just to be clear, IMVHO, I was a good/great partner for WW and she admitted that at one time - some time in the last year or so. Even the V-day card from 2010 is very loving, so I know it's more than helping out around the house. I continue to do a lot around the house as part of plan A. WW's getting a job has created a shift in routine anyway. For example, I now cook more and cook enough so that WW can take what I make for dinner one night as a lunch the next day or two. WW is the best cook I've ever known, so my cooking is a step down, but I'm trying. I believe she sees that effort.

I would be doing this regardless of whether WW is there or not. My goal is simply to cook enough for at least 2 meals, since my schedule is so tight during the week. On a perfect day I leave around 6am and return (after picking up DS at after school program) at 5pm at the earliest and usually closer to 5:30pm. I try have dinner on the table by 6pm and he's in bed around 7:15pm. After that it's back to looking at work emails, working out, going to this site, etc. WW's schedule has her working late two days a week, so I pick up DS at least 3 sometimes 4 times a week. I usually have a drink after work with my co-workers on Thursday or Friday, so WW picks him up.

I'm doing this for two reasons, practice being a single parent and also to show WW that I'm a great partner. I continue to support her efforts at her job - cheerleading as it were.

This time of life can be very demanding.

My wife is SAHM. And with 4 kids she feels like her needs come very last. All the time.

I am noticing more and more how the kids just go to her first. Its annoying that I am sitting right there and they run and find mom. Trying to train them.

DS is an EN that seems like no one admits as being important. Like its too shallow or something. But all the DS IS really important. Slacking off on dishes or cooking or putting kids to bed or laundry really did add to my wife's $LB deficit.

Being a stay-at-home parent is rough. The shift starts when the parent gets up, and might end when they go to bed... if there is no sick kids that night.

It's not just DS, it's FC.

It's also getting her the heck out of the house to do something, anything, other than be in the house with the kids.

I started with that way back when, and we started "date nights."

Ground rules were laid; no relationship talk on date night, no talk of kids. However, we are parents. Our children are a significant part of our lives. When we talk to other people, we often talk about our children.

How old are the kids, stretch? One of the things we have done to bolster DS is... to give the kids daily chores. Our oldest 2 are 11 and 13, and even the 4yo can clean up after HERSELF.

Laundry? See a basket? Do a load!

DD13 is in charge of the dishes - if she wants to be a social butterfly, they have to be done. DD13 and DD11 are responsible for putting up their own clothes.

Have your wife start deferring the children to you with their requests - over time, it should become a habit for them.

I was so enthusiastic about her getting out of the house to go play with her girlfriends. How is that for a kick in the azz. That trust was betrayed horribly. I loved for her to see her friends. Go out and play! I would always watch the kids for the weekend. I gave them hotel points and free booze and ordered special snacks for their room. And then the three of them were all talking about their extramarital affairs together and taking my wife out to see the OM. Ouch.

I shared all this pain with her last night matter of fact.

So anyway... a Stretch update:

Past two weeks pretty good actually. Wife is talking openly about addressing her depression. I am seeking help and advice for her depression for the first time in 15 years (what a dope -- what the H was I waiting for? I was in total denial.) Also, wife is asking for and ready to listen to me talk about the pain. She just witnesses. Last night I explained WHY I was upset with her friends (enablers, co-conspirators, cheerleaders) A lot of it was news to her. Stuff they wrote her on the emails during the EA, advice they gave that nudged her along and supported the EA -- she did not remember all that. I explained the pain and betrayal. But the enabler friends are secondary. They are down the list from the real hard pain we'll get to soon -- but it was just someplace to start.

She is asking what will it take for us to move to recovery. what does it look like -- besides her commitment to wear a ring and re-take vows and say not just "I love you." but "I am IN love with you."

We are planning to tell our MC today that we want to process some of this. Its not fun. It hurts. It takes time. But I want her to process her pain from 14 yrs of M. And she wants me to process the pain of the past 2 years of betrayal. We need to do this to move forward and keep short accounts from here forward.

Hopefully we start this with MC today. Too often we get in there and get stuck on one recent little incident.

Funny how that always seems to happen.

Glad to hear y'all are still moving forward. I wish I could find the post, but someone asked "How do you know you've made it?" and the response was that it was a single moment or conversation that happened and that's how you knew. In other words, you couldn't schedule it to happen or plan on the time or place. You could only try to put the chain of events into place and hope they hit the mark.

Figures, huh?

Reynolds,

Just a status check from you:

How long is it now since you exposed the A, and how are things now compared to then? (A over, fog lifting, withdrawal?)

Thanks!

stretch -

I think I can offer a little perspective on being married to someone with depression issues. For many depressed people, their behavior is dominated by coping strategies. For my W, inactivity sets her spiraling in the wrong direction, so she is a whirlwind of activity from the second she gets up until she is asleep again. She acts as if things are urgent or time sensitive when they are not. She is on the phone a lot to keep her energy level up and works out to the point of ridiculousness. There is no rational component to this behavior, it is 100% about fending off depression.

There are often phobias and compulsions that go along with this, and people are usually reluctant to talk about them because they are perceived as "crazy" behaviors. But at least having them in the open takes some of the isolation away and helps you to understand her better.

Part of dealing with depression is developing new and effective coping strategies. A therapist can definitely help with that. You can help by understanding her actions thru this lens and participating in the coping with her. She needs to be aware of her mental state and how to interfere when the depression is on autopilot.

There is no question that there is a chemical component to depression. Positive thoughts, feelings, impulses, etc. are simply more difficult for the depressed to maintain. Chemicals in the brain that carry these things are found to be in un-naturally low levels in depressed people. Diabetics dont produce enough insulin, depressed people dont produce enough seratonin. Its really no more dramatic than that. Getting a pharmaceutical assist fot that is essential, but it is not a cure. I would say that for most people it takes the edge off, or maybe knocks it down 50%.

F4L - Your last post is very insightful. My WW is always moving, can't sit still and loves working out. She gets down when she can't work out and her weight goes up. She's got an issue with food, it's an extreme source of joy and enjoyment, but she also seeks it out when she's depressed. I wonder if she's experiencing the initial stages of menopause, which is causing the hormones in her body to go haywire.

Sorry for T/J, but I was asked.

I exposed December. Thread removed as my wife has access to the site.

Affair was over right away, worked like a charm.
Fog lifted more slowly, some days its clear others its not completely. NC held since early January, and that contact was unpleasant for W to say the least. Withdrawl is or has taken place.

Most days are good. Still working on IB, its a big one for her. I am still hoping a day will come when I don't think of A constantly. I am told thats down the road.

Actually was going to book with Steve today for a tune up.

My biggest issue is IB. Lots more to say but don't want to TJ anymore.

I have been dealing with this since September before I found MB when I installed a keylogger and realized what was happening.

Two things I would tell any new person. Expose right now. Hang on cause its gonna suck even if it goes well.

Thanks.

Exposure occurred 3/9...OMs mom called me, we spoke briefly, she had many choice things to say about my W...

We had 1 session w/ Steve -- his take to me was 3-6 weeks from exposure for withdrawal...he sensed A was over already...W was 'emotionally hanging on' but fog was lifting..

NC seems to be holding -- guess I'm still in the early stages, though?

Stretch - just checking in - how's things going?

Several of us are only one month ahead of you. I remember exposure plus three or four weeks. Tough times. Barely emotionally stable. Now at month two, we are settling in. I only have a major breakdown about once a week. I probably cry every day but I can get my work done, I am focused on working on developing and improving myself, improving myself, meeting her EN's and really eliminating my LB's. Practice and time.

The typical WW seems to be a difficult case, especially if (as seems common) she emotionally detached from the M, convinced herself she did not love H anymore and became addicted to the fantasy of the A. I don't know if mine will come back. She has a lot of reasons built up for not believing she can come back in love with me. It hurts so deeply. I've never fallen out of love in my life. She is my only love. And my heart is really broken. Painful. Every day she "loves" me... she "has love for me." But its not the kind of "In Love" that makes her want to marry me again.

This is going to take a long time. I am jealous that you are using the MB program and talking to Steve. But my wife does want to, eventually, come into the forum and read the threads. She has read many articles and we are reading HN/HN and LB together. (She introduced me to the MB books about a year ago.)

Thanks for checking in Andy,

Stretch update:

We are moving forward. Loving, kind and sweet. But...her depression is really deep and its exhausting for the whole family I feel. I am concerned. She is kinda short with the kids, pretty isolated (not making calls to family during the day, skipping things, not working on her writing.) She has a filter about everything I say and do. Its a big filter. But our communication hasn't worked well for a long time. But the filter that presumes I have the worst intentions and manipulative motivations and gets my feelings so mish mashed is hard to take.

Now, that being said, she recognizes the depression and is actively trying to work her way out of it. Picking small tasks, writing just a little. I asked her to do Yoga with me and she did.

I am working really hard on listening, observing, not trying to problem solve or fix, meeting her ENs, doing everything I can to take initiative with the house and really getting engaged with the kids. I am doing all of this for myself. Its who I wish I always was before. So less selfish.

But here is an example of her twisted filter: When I say, "I am doing this for me, I am becoming who I want, but I have heard it said, 'Its too hard to keep it up solo for 6 months.'" She thinks I am just test driving these behaviors and if conditions aren't met I will go back to being selfish. NOOOO! What it means is, "When I am stable and strong and really confident in the new me that I want to be, I dearly hope the love of my life loves me back and wants our life to go on together. But if I am not loved back, if you won't or can't join me....I won't be able to take that pain forever, and I will be even more heartbroken, because we'll need to move on separately." I am not pulling the wool over her eyes with the Stretch 2.0 version. These changes aren't baloney. She refuses to believe in me... she keeps raising the bar I feel. And won't let herself love me back. Its painful and I search for strength.

That's what hurts so damn much. I really love her. Unconditionally, and generously. I have such energy and enthusiasm about getting even more intimate, and sharing more and parenting and fun and conversation and excitement and .... Romantic Love. But I don't believe she is in love with me right now. And she is really fighting it.

I am ready to move past the A. I know that I have pain and hurt to express. Still do. I think I can get through that quickly if she won't fight me (defensiveness, denial, justification, retreating to depression.) I wish we could get through that and love each other.

Its close! We are very sweet to each other every day. She gives me words of love and admiration. I try to be patient. My forgiveness is genuine. We pray. We read. We understand the lessons from all the books. I don't know if she will forgive me for every neglectful husband offense of the first 14 years of the M. I don't know if she will fix the revisionist history and remember what was good. And remember all the EN's I met. And all the more EN's I am meeting now. I know that I intend to meet all her EN's and eliminate LB's. I know I am O&H and ALL IN.

I continue to focus on my own self work. That's all I can do. Just change me and wait, and wait. I have an intense exercise program that drives me and nourishes me. My work is not suffering so much now. I enjoy the kids. Love our church. Spend more QT with my own family (sisters) and friends. I am fascinated by my wife. Find new things to love all the time. But also I am really concerned about her emotions and depression right now as well. Why wouldn't I be? I love her deeply.

My wife is not a whirlwind of activity lately. She is withdrawn and isolated. I wonder what her coping strategies were that worked best in the past. Getting on the phone to have a chat. Getting outside. Unfortunately going to see OM was a big euphoria. That fantasy made her really happy.

I guess during the day she knows how to do lots of little things. But when the kids all get home and they get demanding and she gets tired.... its rough. She often naps in the afternoon.

And for as many years as I've known her there were times when alcohol was used to self-medicate. Not in the worst imaginable way. Just going out here and there and way over-drinking. In college... about every weekend. Now... about two or three times a year. Since we talked about it last fall.... never since. But... that's a coping strategy (alcohol) that has been removed. She was peppy and fun when we drank a little too much. Now, we drink one or two.

I like what you say.... "filled with coping strategies." Well, she has to choose them I suppose. It just doesn't work for me to suggest all of them. I believe if I try too hard ("let's go for a walk. Want to watch something funny? Let's get ice cream. Want to talk to your mom on the phone?") she gets annoyed.

If it is depression, as in a chemical issue, then there's not a whole lot that you can do. My wife sounds a lot like yours, and she has been on a myriad of medications trying to find the right balance for the depression.

Hers comes in cycles, and I can nearly predict when the downward swing is starting. My wife tells me that, when it starts, she just wants to be left alone and not to deal with anyone. It's nothing personal, but it's just how she feels.

So, your wife's afternoon naps and getting tired/overwhelmed sound familiar. Just try picking up the slack where you can, that's what she needs. Continue to offer activities like you mentioned, but just ask the one time and don't try to press, persuade or cheer her up. Exercise is a good thing, it causes the release of some types of brain chemicals that help counteract the depression. Or something like that, it's what the psychiatrist told us.

Yes, if you try too hard, she'll get annoyed so try to be more subtle. She'll appreciate it. Ask her if she'd just rather be alone, and be ok with it if she says yes. Make sure she knows that you're ok with it. If she is suffering with depression, the last thing she needs is to feel guilty over something that she has absolutely no control over.

As my wife said to me, "If I could just snap out of it and think happy thoughts, don't you think I'd do it and save myself all this trouble?"

Recovery-wise, it sounds like we're about in the same place. Your trying to understand her depression will go a long way in letting her feel safe with you again.

Is she seeing a psychiatrist?

My wife has seen the same therapist about a year and a half. She started with him about the time the EA started. So her counselor was "in the know" the entire time.

Today she came back from her session with some positive advice. Its my impression that she spent a good year and a half complaining about her husband and asking for validation and support for leaving me... for fighting me... for managing how difficult a person I am. But she acknowledges that personal therapay is supposeed to be about the person in the room... not the spouse who is not even there.

It doesn't always work like that. You can paint a picture / tell a story about your spouse and your therapist can be empathetic and give you solutions to fix your spouse. It never works. But they still get paid.

Her session today sounded totally different. She talked about her depression. She talked about her defensiveness and unwillingness to let me in. They talked about her guilt. He helped her get determined to let me in. To just try and accept all the nice things I am doing for her. To just try and let the love blossom and grow.

Two days ago, I was being sincere and nice to her, and she said she just felt overwhelmed from 8 weeks of me shaming her. But she apologized quickly. She said, "You were being nice and I was mean to you." She sees that there is some deflection. Like, its not me trying so hard to shame her. That's possibly an internal struggle she is having. I am here to help her get over that so we can just move on.

She admitted to her therapist that in MC she just sits there and lets me go on about pain. Lets me talk long enough.... and (this was a new one to admit) she said she had these thoughts, "Maybe if he talks long enough he will convince himself to get out of the marriage too."

She admitted there is a lot of mind games going on inside her head with herself. Her therapist agrees. She is really putting up walls in her mind to resist. Her therapist said today, "This is the first time I have heard you willing to think about and talk about a plan for the future."

Key lesson men, if you just work on Plan A... and take your foot off the gas... they might come to these realizations on their own with time. Every fiber in your being wants to scream, "Break through the fog! Let down your defenses! Stop being angry at me (the BH)! Let go of your harmful fantasy! Accept me! My Plan A behavior is for the long term! Its real! You can have this marriage like this!"

But you can't push her. Just ease off the gas and don't use logic.

Her therapist helped her conclude that she was working mental overtime to make up reasons to be mad at me. Even with everything nice I do, she can't accept its nourishing, genuine, not filled with flaws.

That was a ton. A TON!!! for her to break through today. Wow.

I gotta stay focused. Keep on being the better man I have wanted to be. Give her space. Improve myself and not worry about her work so much.

I am happy about this development. But I am afraid of her major regression with the next big slip up I make. I better talk about that now. Inevitably, there will be a big slip up. Now and for the rest of our lives those things will happen unless we stop being human. So I will talk to her about that now. Before it happens. The past 8 weeks a big mistake from me was just fuel for her angry fire. It became a conflict for a week. It nurtured the fog and the defenses and the fight or flight.

Stretch, I have a couple thoughts. Having gone through depression and anxiety in my life off and on, I know that sometimes pharmaceuticals are the answer - that is, when there's truly a chemical imbalance in the brain. However, as humans, our choices can affect our mood. If I do something to help someone else, I feel good about myself. If I..... well, had an affair, I would feel depressed after it was brought into the light and I began seeing it for the ugly thing it was. And I'm of the mind that going through some of that emotional pain is healthy for your WW right now. If, however, she continues to dwell and get stuck in a rut, maybe she should see a psychiatrist (NOT a general practioner) and perhaps medication coupled with talk therapy could be of benefit if she is struggling to forgive herself.

The next thing I have to say is a little voice in the back of my mind.... after reading your updates, and hearing about her depression, I can't help but think there could be something more to this story. Perhaps she still looks at his Facebook profile? Has some pictures saved of the OM? Those will prevent her recovery from moving forward. OR..... it is possible that she is carrying around some guilt about things she hasn't told you. What I'm getting at is, I think that her affair, given the length of it and the depth of her current depression, probably went physical. What have you done to verify the truth besides taking her word for it? If there is undisclosed elements of the affair, then her recovery will be almost impossible.

Last thought: this counselor sounds like an enabler - he/she managed to support your wife's affair at some level for a very long time. I would get her as far away from that counselor as possible. She doesn't need individual counseling from a counselor. She doesn't need to dwell on the past. She needs to deal with the present, WITH YOU.

Just my 5 1/2 cents.

Also dude, I know you're eager to put this behind you (and I've seen this with BH's a dozen times here), but your WW has NOT earned her "F" status. She has a long way to go. Don't think of her as recovered. Think of it this way - if a drug addict had a little over thirty days sober, would you call them a "former" drug addict? Same with waywards. They've got to get some solid time under their belt, coupled with ongoing reparative work and EPs to guard against any relapse.

Best wishes,
Arpeggi

Stretch and NW - I think our WWs are all related somehow. I don't know if my WW suffers from clinical depression or not, but she's always a whirlwind of activity. She can't sit still, that's why she really doesn't read or anything like that. She hasn't tried taking up a new hobby, besides having an A. :-(

It's ironic to me that the items on her bucket list all require time and patience. She's very afraid of being labelled 'lazy'. I've never seen her be lazy in my time with her. She has some kind of chip on her shoulder, because she does compare herself to others (i.e. 'I'm the only one at the new job without a bachelor's degree.'). Based on the dialog here, especially with Constant Process, I do wonder if my WW has some undiagnosed mental disorder or illness.

On the flip side, there have been times in the past where she's felt 'guilty' about our success. We both come from lower middleclass backgrounds and I'm the first in my family to graduate from college. I went into the military after high school so that I could use the GI bill to pay for it, because my parents couldn't afford to send me. I worked hard and moved ahead and felt I've earned what I have. The last 8 years WW has been a big part of that success. She encouraged me, supported me, etc. So I don't understand where the 'guilt of success' comes from.

It makes me feel good and gives me hope when I see you guys moving ahead. I'm envious that both of your WWs seem to be engaged and willing to actively work at the M - on some level. I realize it's got to be difficult, but try to think long term and don't push too hard. As males we want to 'fix' the problem, but our WWs don't look at it the same way. They need time to process things on their own - that's why I think my WW needs to move out. She doesn't have the capacity to 'see' what life will be like without DS and I in the same house. She needs to experience it first hand. Then, maybe, the lightbulb will go off and she'll consider giving our M another try. However, again, that'll take time. Patience, patience, patience, not my forte in this situation.